#LDTPoll: Who do you believe on the Russian hacking allegations?

[James R]

For the same reason I don't believe in the Gods. No good evidence, and I'm not taking the Theologians' at their words, even though, they're apparently experts on the topic.

How do you know there's no good evidence? Several security agencies have said there is very good evidence. They even wrote a report on it. They briefed Trump about it, and even he seem convinced.

I've worked in numerous large private a public bureaucracies. Nothing could be better than to dislodge that political hack. Let's hope severe term limits are soon to follow.

Which political hack? Term limits on what?

Let me clarify, I don't care if the DNCs computer was hacked by a 14 year old, Putin, or leaked. And it made for good political theater.

So the integrity of the election result is less important to you than good political theatre. I see.

That's a good question. I was born in and grew up in the USA - I identify with being American. Specifically, Midwestern. It's a good fit with the East to be honest.

How so?

We'll see. I've lived in 5 countries, I'm confident in suggesting the West is in decline both morally and culturally.

Ah. Moral decline. How is this evidenced, in your opinion?
And cultural decline? What do you mean by that? Compared to what?

Understanding the failings of the West, is not pessimistic. It's realistic.

No complaint from me there.

Suppose the USA were to become a far left Socialistic State. Understanding that the future would result in mass chaos and people eating zoo animals and refuge, may sound pessimistic, but that's not pessimism, it's realism.

There's zero chance of the USA becoming a far left socialist state any time soon. I'm not quite sure why such a thing would necessarily lead to people eating zoo animals and the sky falling in and all that, though.

Family of course Outside of family, I'm greatly looking forward to each new technological advancement. Robotics and AI will probably be next, eliminating many mundane jobs. Maybe not soon followed, but a slow burn will be biotechnology. Which can put more people to work. Also, entertainment will continue to expand in scope and opportunity. Very decentralized, which is good. If you're motivated, I imagine the world has never been more open to possibilities.

Do you think technology is also shutting certain people out of opportunities, too? What about those people with the mundane jobs the machines will be eliminating? What do you think should happen to them? Do they just need to get motivated? Are they unmotivated in your capitalist utopia?

Oh, and then I have an interesting life IMO. I spend a lot of time doing interesting work and enjoy traveling. Plus, for fun I'm working on a children's book. That's a lot of fun (hobby). I'm also a strong advocate for peaceful parenting when opportunity presents itself. I also create free lessons for children to learn English (hobby). Oh, I have some very very interesting research into cancer. I'll wrap that up soon I hope. And it's pretty good stuff too. There's a lot of bullshit out there - this isn't that. It's very well researched and detailed analysis and I did a lot of it personally so I know that the data is sound.

Oh, I've recently tried to get into delineating sound valid arguments from cogent strong arguments through the use of fuzzy modus tollens and modus ponens. It's a hobby. Like a once a year thing I go back to during Xmas.


But, most important is family.
Never forget that

I'm so glad that you see some positives, Michael, even if most of them seem a bit self-centred.

 

[Bells]

Still waiting on the evidence.

29th of December 2016..

WikiLeaks Retweeted
Breitbart News ‏@BreitbartNews 29 Dec 2016
Not the first time this Guardian reporter has been busted cutting words that completely change a quote's meaning.
​

You can find the tweet that Wikileaks retweeted here: https://twitter.com/BreitbartNews/status/814595384848842752

The comments in the Breitbart tweet focusing on wikileaks are in direct response and from wikileaks twitter feed, as people just felt disgust at just how low Assange and wikileaks are going by retweeting the likes of Breitbart.

 

[Michael]

It's a privately owned, for profit, capitalist entity. Always has been. The antithesis of socialism.

The Central Bank was started by Progressives. To provide value to the new FIAT currency they forced laborers to pay an income tax. Then ushered in the Roaring 20s, culminating in the Great Depression and WWII.

Once again confusing currency with capital. A basic error - fundamental mistake.

We use a progressive fiat currency. That's how socialism gets paid for, by State decry, otherwise known as the initiation of violence. Socialism is just another morally bankrupt Authoritarian pie-in-the-sky oxymoron ideology. In this case Statism.

There's zero chance of the USA becoming a far left socialist state any time soon. I'm not quite sure why such a thing would necessarily lead to people eating zoo animals and the sky falling in and all that, though.

Let's make sure we remember this quote.

Venezuelans, the Progressive Socialists' paradise, have resorted to eating their zoo animals.

29th of December 2016..

WikiLeaks Retweeted
Breitbart News ‏@BreitbartNews 29 Dec 2016
Not the first time this Guardian reporter has been busted cutting words that completely change a quote's meaning.
​

You can find the tweet that Wikileaks retweeted here: https://twitter.com/BreitbartNews/status/814595384848842752

The comments in the Breitbart tweet focusing on wikileaks are in direct response and from wikileaks twitter feed, as people just felt disgust at just how low Assange and wikileaks are going by retweeting the likes of Breitbart.

Any evidence of Russians "hacking the election"?

As for Brietbart, I could careless what they publish, I've never seen (let alone bothered to purchase) anything they're selling.

I also don't care if it was Wikileaks, or some 14 year old who hacked the DNC's PC. The point isn't that a political hack group masquerading as a serious private political party was hacked, it's what was leaked. And the leaks show a hack group of miscreants willing to do, or say, whatever they have to, to remain in power.

Another good reason to defend the federal government by ending it's control over the currency supply.

How do you know there's no good evidence?

How do I know there's no Gods? I don't and I didn't make an argument I did. Again, a strawman.

Ah. Moral decline. How is this evidenced, in your opinion?
And cultural decline? What do you mean by that? Compared towhat?

From the 1 in 5 government school graduates who lack the ability to read and write, to the bailing out of the criminal bankers, the never ending wars, the normalization of government violence, the normalization to medical error, the 10s of trillions in debt obligations, the 100s of trillions in unfunded expected obligations, the total scamming of the public purse by public officials, the normalization of single mother households, the drug epidemic, and etc....

There's no turning the ship around. It's hit the iceberg and is slowly sinking. And will sink. Hopefully peacefully resulting in the formation of smaller more managable Nation States. The collapse of the Welfare State isn't going to be pleasant for many. I suspect the government official arse holes will start a war or two more as they attempt to hang on to power. Oh well.

And if you think the American electorate isn't moving massively left, you're not paying attention. These things take time.

How is the East like the Midwest? Well, you'd have had to of grown-up in the mid-west and lived in the east to appreciate the nuances. I'm not suggesting other places aren't similarly inclined, I can only speak for my own experience. Perhaps conservative without the added baggage of Christianity sums it up somewhat.

Do you think technology is also shutting certain people out of opportunities, too? What about those people with the mundane jobs the machines will be eliminating? What do you think should happen to them? Do they just need to get motivated? Are they unmotivated in your capitalist utopia?

In a capitalistic utopia people only produce what others can buy. With sound money, maybe a house would cost 5000 dollars. Too bad we don't live in a capitalistic free market with sound money.

Anyway, what will they do? Good question. But it's better they aren't wasting their time digging holes by hand when we have a massive machine that can. Do you agree? It'd better if they could do something else. That's how we become prosperous. Which is why we need deregulation. So that they are allowed to get a job. Either by copying someone, creating their own, or simply being allowed to work.

 

[Bells]

Any evidence of Russians "hacking the election"?

I believe the intelligence departments in the US have presented their case and have stated they have the evidence. Perhaps you can ask them?

As for Brietbart, I could careless what they publish, I've never seen (let alone bothered to purchase) anything they're selling.

And yet your posts seem to mirror so much of the fake news they publish.

I also don't care if it was Wikileaks, or some 14 year old who hacked the DNC's PC.

You keep repeating this.. Very much a Trump talking point in defending Putin. Why do you do that?

The point isn't that a political hack group masquerading as a serious private political party was hacked, it's what was leaked. And the leaks show a hack group of miscreants willing to do, or say, whatever they have to, to remain in power.

You mean like Trump's promising to drain the swamp, etc and then doing the exact opposite? You mean like Trump telling the alt right what they wanted to hear and pandering to white supremacists and then breaking said promises?

I could ask if you are that naive, Michael, but I think your issues go much deeper than that.

Another good reason to defend the federal government by ending it's control over the currency supply.

And your tinfoil hat now points in a different direction...

 

[Michael]

I believe the intelligence departments in the US have presented their case and have stated they have the evidence. Perhaps you can ask them?

Like they did in Iraq with the weapons of mass destruction, nevermind that Iraqies had NO involvement in 9/11 itself. Or how about the Gulf of Tonkin, another lie that led to another phony war. Or how about when we helped remove the Shaw of Iran. That works out well.

Anyway, believe whatever you wish to believe. The facts evidenced by the leak itself are more important than you being conned into thinking big scary Russia's Putin is out to get you.

And Obama's legacy will be of the Nobel Peace wiener who bombed the most nations.

You mean like Trump's promising to drain the swamp, etc and then doing the exact opposite? You mean like Trump telling the alt right what they wanted to hear and pandering to white supremacists and then breaking said promises?

Hahahaha....

Drain The Swamp?

That's meaningless gibberish. A simp phrase for a simple electorate (whom Trump cringworthyly spoke to as a 10 year old). There is no draining anything. The government IS A SWAMP.

Which is why it should be severely limited in its capacity to come in contact with society. Limited by a Constitution would have been nice. Doesn't work, because no one could give a crap when there's free stuff to be had.

It will be fun watching the political theater for 4, hopefully 8, years.

Then we can elect someone from the far left. Won't that be fun? Think of all the free stuff.

As for the AltRight. Yeah, they want a white race or white homeland. As I stated, race is a subjective experience. ANYONE can be white, yellow, black or red. It's just in one's head. And they can buy their land like everyone else, one piece at a time.

Who'd want to live with a pea brained dolt just because they're light complexioned with a beak shapped nose?
Lol

WWII was the fault of the evil Progressives, now, Michael?

Without Progressive Central Banks, there'd never be a WWII because people won't voluntary pay for it.

Thank National Socialism if it makes you happier. Not much different than now, with the echos getting louder by the day.

 

[iceaura]

The Central Bank was started by Progressives.

It's a privately owned, for profit capitalist entity. The antithesis of socialism.

And if you think the American electorate isn't moving massively left, you're not paying attention.

The American government - the electorate's chosen representatives - has been moving notably and sharply rightward since 1980.

"Once again confusing currency with capital. A basic error - fundamental mistake."
We use a progressive fiat currency.

Our capitalist economy under its rightwing authoritarian government uses a fiat currency.

"I believe the intelligence departments in the US have presented their case and have stated they have the evidence. Perhaps you can ask them?"
Like they did in Iraq with the weapons of mass destruction, nevermind that Iraqies had NO involvement in 9/11 itself.

Again: The intelligence agencies didn't do that.

A rightwing authoritarian Republican administration stuffed with free market capitalists did that, largely in order to bring free market capitalism to Iraq. Or did you think Bremer and Wolfowitz and the boys were just kidding about privatizing Iraq's State-owned industry, banning trade unions and getting rid of patents and copyrights, and bringing in corporate capitalist investment?

The facts evidenced by the leak itself are more important than you being conned into thinking big scary Russia's Putin is out to get you.

No they aren't. They're trivial and overhyped by the schlockmeisters of the Republican media, and of far less import than the fact of foreign government's choosing the next US president for their own benefit.

Without Progressive Central Banks, there'd never be a WWII because people won't voluntary pay for it.

Good point, although the Japanese and the Soviets managed to find a way. But in the West, without privately owned for profit capitalist central banks, such as Germany and America had, WWII might never have started. Something to consider, when setting up one's central bank - maybe the safety margin of government owned central banks is worth whatever efficiency is lost. Look at neutral, pacifist Sweden.

 

[Michael]

It's a privately owned, for profit capitalist entity. The antithesis of socialism.

The Central Bank was created by a Progressive Socialist. It derives it's authority from the use of State violence to enforce tax recipes upon the bonds it sells on future labor (hence the need for an ever expanding tax base, Earth's ecosystems be damned, and Orwellian: Diversity is Strength importation of millions amd millions of unskilled low IQ economic migrants). Just how do you think the State's bs currency is going to gain value? Magically?

How do you suppose the State is going to pay for all that free shit you want it to provide society with?

Magic fiat?

Print it up!
LOL

What, you think the State can just print up magic paper and magically goods and services just appear. You know, if only we had the ink to print those extra two zeros, then we'd all be rich.

Sorry, the real world doesn't work like that.


That aside. I will agree the Progressive retards at the turn of the century had little idea what they were doing and they gave us a quazi fascist Central Bank. Not that they'd care. It's all about the now, what free shit can I promise to get elected now.

Note: Asians generally do think in much longer stretches of time. A hundred years. That's reasonable. We used to, too.

The American government - the electorate's chosen representatives - has been moving notably and sharply rightward since 1980.

Give me a break. The Union is as far from a free market, and we therefor from a free society, as could have possibly been imagined at the inception of this country.

You think 1980 to 2017 anything major has changed? Give me a break. We're you free to sell beer without a license, consume a weed grown in your yard, open a business without government approval, practice medicine without government approval, and etc... in 1980?

We're as unfree as ever. You know, the whole tax and regulate the hell out of everything while race baiting and bribing the working class.

Talk about a low bar.

Did the 1980s end the DoED or all the other hundreds if new agencies and millions of new regulations.

A rightwing authoritarian Republican administration stuffed with free market capitalists did that, largely in order to bring free market capitalism to Iraq. Or did you think Bremer and Wolfowitz and the boys were just kidding about privatizing Iraq's State-owned industry, banning trade unions and getting rid of patents and copyrights, and bringing in corporate capitalist investment?

The left had their hands in as deep as they could get them. Everyone couldn't wait for the war, the war contracts, the spoils, the good jerbs, and etc...

Anyway, I agree there was no difference from the right and left. Two wings of one party.

 

[iceaura]

The Central Bank was created by a Progressive Socialist.

It is a privately owned, for profit, corporate capitalist entity. The antithesis of socialism. That is a fact. It's sitting right there, and you can verify that at any time.
Your basic problem is that you don't know what the word "socialist" means (or "progressive").

That aside. I will agree the Progressive retards at the turn of the century had little idea what they were doing and they gave us a quazi fascist Central Bank

Progressive, Socialist, "quazi Fascist", government controlled - all these terms are interchangeable in your posts; - the problem with your never having bothered to learn what words mean is that everything you post is gibberish.

You think 1980 to 2017 anything major has changed?

Yep. Remember that 20 trillion of debt you were making a big deal out of above? That you thought was major?

Did the 1980s end the DoED or all the other hundreds if new agencies and millions of new regulations.

Nope. Rightwing authoritarians love them some regulations. They did deregulate the banking and financial industry, though - returns to capital are central to their agenda.

"The American government - the electorate's chosen representatives - has been moving notably and sharply rightward since 1980."
Give me a break. The Union is as far from a free market, and we therefor from a free society, as could have possibly been imagined at the inception of this country

I didn't say anything about a free market. And you are wrong anyway - the US is much closer to a free market economy now than it was at the inception of this country.

The left had their hands in as deep as they could get them.

No, they didn't. They had almost no say in the matter. The launch of the Iraq War was a rightwing militaristic authoritarian corporate capitalist Republican operation. I'd use the simple term, but you don't know what it means.

Everyone couldn't wait for the war, the war contracts, the spoils, the good jerbs, and etc..

The left tried to prevent the Iraq War, and tried to end it after it had begun. Street demonstrations, votes in Congress, lots of noise, attempts to redirect the media narrative, etc. It was a big deal. Famous. People like you called them traitors. Officials of government threatened them with persecution.

 

[origin]

People like you called them traitors. Officials of government threatened them with persecution.

Not just threated - actual persecution. The despicable Valerie Plame outing comes to mind.

 

[James R]

And if you think the American electorate isn't moving massively left, you're not paying attention. These things take time.

Well, let's see. Last year, the American electorate voted to change from a centre-left administration with a centre-right Congress to a more right-wing Congress and an administration under heavy influence from the so-called "alt-right".

Admittedly, the popular vote for President was left of centre (not that the popular Presidential candidate was elected, of course).

But I can't see any sense in which the American electorate is showing a "massively left" drift. If anything, things appear to be trending in the opposite direction.

 

[iceaura]

Well, let's see. Last year, the American electorate voted to change from a centre-left administration

The Obama administration was solidly right of center - as its adoption of the Republican corporate-welfare '93 health care plan for its major agenda priority proves beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The Obama tenure Republican Congress was quite far right - to the point of normalizing extremist rightwing positions such as privatizing Social Security and eliminating the income tax. It hasn't changed much - bunch of incumbents back for more nuttery.

 

[Michael]

It is a privately owned, for profit, corporate capitalist entity. The antithesis of socialism. That is a fact. It's sitting right there, and you can verify that at any time.
Your basic problem is that you don't know what the word "socialist" means (or "progressive").

On December 23, 1913, President Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act into law.

President Woodrow Wilson was a leading force in the Progressive movement, bolstered by his Democratic Party's winning control of both the White House and Congress in 1912.

Our Central Bank, and the entire financial system that has evolved to serve it, is not based on capital savings. That's now how new fiat currency units come into existence. They come into existence via debt. Does gold come into existence via debt? Do bitcoins come into existence via debt? Thanks to Progressive Socialists, we don't have capitalism any longer.

Secondly, the Central Bank makes spoils, not profit (which requires free trade in a voluntary means of exchange derived by free people finding value using it). SPOILS is not the same as profit. Again, thank your Progressive Socialists.

Thirdly, free market currencies are used voluntarily. Fiat currency requires violence (that's the fiat part) in order to gain value. Which is why we have to pay an income tax (again, thank you Progressives). Which allows the Government to borrow from the prosperity of the future, by selling T-Bonds.

Yeah, I know, in iceaura-land there are No True Scotsmen. Wilson, the leader of the Progressive Party, he wasn't a progressive socialist. Hugo, gushed over in the journal The Progressive - he wasn't a Progressive. Sweden, gushed over by Bernie Progressive Sanders, it's not Progressive. Nope, Progressivism, like Communism, just never existed. Reminds me of Muslims who claim, there's nothing wrong with Islamic Ideology - no no no, it's not at fault, because there's never been a real Islamic country. See, they're just not doing it right. But just you wait, once we have TRUE Progressivism, Islam, Communism, etc... THEN utopia.


I wonder iceaura - just how would YOU have the Government funded? Oh, that's right, lets do away with private free-market banking, and just let GiverMint run the financial system. Because, unlike the free-market, the Government is so competent at running things, just look at our failed welfare ghettos, failed schools: failed prison system, failed defense agency / phony war-machine; failed and or incompetently run crony everything.

Hmmmm.... maybe the use of violence, isn't the best approach. Perhaps instead of violently forcing people to access a currency, let them derive their own. Geee, but that sounds a bit too free huh? Unamerican even.

 

[Michael]

As for Obama's legacy, of the 8 years he was in office, not a day went by we weren't engaged in war. Not bombing the shit out of someone.

On that alone, thank the Gods the WarHarpy wasn't elected. The Gods only know what she'd have done.

Not that it matters, our future is baked in the cake. Americans are addicted to violence, and we won't stop using it, until our utter end. As our page in history turns over a morally corrupt decaying and dead nation. I'm sure any historian in the future, would see the page already 3/4th of the way flipped over. Well past the halfway point.

 

[Michael]

Nope. Rightwing authoritarians love them some regulations. They did deregulate the banking and financial industry, though - returns to capital are central to their agenda.

I agree that rightwing authoritarians love regulatory capture, as much as those on the left love rent-seeking. Because they're both cut from the Statist Authoritarian cloth. As for the banking system, it was not deregulated. That's asinine. And if you think inconstantly crony regulatory agencies, are going to regulate the complexity that is the financial markets, anywhere nearly as good as private profit making enterprises would - you're smoking crack. Until we have competing currencies, not backed by income tax, I don't want to hear of this deregulated banking system: It simply doesn't exist, except in your imagination.

 

[James R]

The Obama administration was solidly right of center - as its adoption of the Republican corporate-welfare '93 health care plan for its major agenda priority proves beyond a shadow of a doubt.

What about Obamacare? Is that a right-of-centre policy? Social welfare is more a leftist ideal, isn't it?

 

[joepistole]

I agree that rightwing authoritarians love regulatory capture, as much as those on the left love rent-seeking. Because they're both cut from the Statist Authoritarian cloth. As for the banking system, it was not deregulated. That's asinine. And if you think inconstantly crony regulatory agencies, are going to regulate the complexity that is the financial markets, anywhere nearly as good as private profit making enterprises would - you're smoking crack. Until we have competing currencies, not backed by income tax, I don't want to hear of this deregulated banking system: It simply doesn't exist, except in your imagination.

Both you and Iceaura are full of it.

 

[Michael]

I didn't say anything about a free market. And you are wrong anyway - the US is much closer to a free market economy now than it was at the inception of this country.

Pffff!

LOL

Hahahahaha.... you need a god damn licence to WASH hair, let alone the 10 years and 5 degrees required to cut it.

Anyway, you don't get the Slavery, without the centuries of dysfunction. You don't get to use violence against morally innocent humans, within a geopolitical domain, without the psychological, environmental and social dysfunction. You can rape and beat your wife, you can even get her pregnant and to reproduce, but you're not getting her to love you.

Initiating violence for the good of society / aka: Progressive Socialism, is an oxymoron.

 

[Michael]

The left tried to prevent the Iraq War, and tried to end it after it had begun. Street demonstrations, votes in Congress, lots of noise, attempts to redirect the media narrative, etc. It was a big deal. Famous. People like you called them traitors. Officials of government threatened them with persecution.

Oh, yes, that was Obama's legacy, the president who ended the war and stopped bombing other nations. I must have missed it. Not the 'You know, I'm pretty good at [extrajudicial] killing people [/US teenage citizens]'.

I must have missed all the peace in between the bombs.

 

[Michael]

Well, let's see. Last year, the American electorate voted to change from a centre-left administration with a centre-right Congress to a more right-wing Congress and an administration under heavy influence from the so-called "alt-right".

Admittedly, the popular vote for President was left of centre (not that the popular Presidential candidate was elected, of course).

But I can't see any sense in which the American electorate is showing a "massively left" drift. If anything, things appear to be trending in the opposite direction.

Okay, you can't. I do. Mainly based on the predilections of the Millennial generation (the largest in US history). Larger than the Baby's, who have all their wealth.

I'm sort of looking forward to their 'taxation' policies. Because, if there's one thing they seem to agree on, it's their hatred of the way their grandparents have screwed them over through debt, University bills, healthcare bills and cuts in services.

Let's see what they do about it.

Some 'Political Action'
Some 'Social Justice'
Some 'Redistribution' from those with some, to those with less.

Seems fair, don't you think?

 

[Michael]

Via Reason: Glenn Greenwald on Wikileaks, Russian Hacking, and Distrusting Legacy Media and U.S. Intel (Reason Podcast).

A few things the US Intelligence Bureaucracies informed us about?
1. Iraq had WMD.
2. Clapper stared right into the camera and explicitly lied to the morons we elected to CONgress (we're not illegally spying on Americans)
3. Putin, polyglot and master programmer, hacks the U.S. election, together with Vermont's electrical grid... ole' Putin's aiming to freeze us out, better start bombing em' ........Fake News At 11:00 (hint: STILL NO EVIDENCE)