Jesus

Ostensible crime. If the Romans had not been there, neither would have Pilate or the Pharisees: they would have had a Hebrew king and autonomous government, and prophets preaching division of state and church wouldn't even be possible, let alone popular
Don't wish to press any issue here, but AFAIK, Jesus was charged by the Pharisees, but declared innocent by Pilate. Without the insistence of the Pharisees, Pilate would have set him free.

I don't quite see how this can be turned into a peaceful mob and a guilty Roman governor. Of course there are alternate motives by all but Jesus, but I don't see how any of these are the primary cause for the eventual murder of Jesus, except the results of exclusivity in religion.

It very much reminds me of Hypatia, an atheist, who was a respected teacher and mathematician and astronomer, but was literally torn apart by a mob of monks, for teaching science.
The other key player in Hypatia's demise is the Patriarch Cyril, the Bishop of St. Mark. He was installed as bishop in October of 412. It was his mission and his quest to bring Christianity to Alexandria, to rid the city of pagans and Jews. He fought his battle for Christian purity by moving against groups that did not follow his beliefs. Cyril was a power-hungry man, who was later canonized by the Catholic Church.
On one eventful day, some 50 monks came upon Orestes. One of them, Ammonius, threw a rock and hit him on the head. Ammonius was arrested, brought before Orestes, and tortured until he died.
At this point, Cyril made efforts to reconcile his differences with Orestes, but the prefect would have nothing to do with it. Cyril then turned his attention to Hypatia, blaming her for Orestes's refusal to reconcile.
Hypatia's denunciation is reported by Socrates Scholasticus. He says, "men 'of the Christian population' started to spread a slanderous rumor that Hypatia was the lion in the path to a reconciliation between the bishop and the prefect. It was astronomy that sealed her fate--understood, of course, as astrology alloyed with black magic and divination."
http://www.womanastronomer.com/hypatia2.htm

And stripped naked and literally torn to bits.

Everybody had a political or religious stake in this tragedy, but the innocent pays the price. Typical and reminiscent of all subsequent hysterical religiopolitical psychotic trials and deaths, regardless of guilt.
 
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And if Jesus wasn't executed, we would have no forgiveness for sin? What was plan B?
The entire episode is a play on morality, designed to make us feel guilty and make an effort to walk the straight and narrow. However, the straight and narrow is negotiable, including murder, when it comes to religious interpretation.
 
Don't wish to press any issue here, but AFAIK, Jesus was charged by the Pharisees, but declared innocent by Pilate. Without the insistence of the Pharisees, Pilate would have set him free.
I don't quite see how this can be turned into a peaceful mob and a guilty Roman governor.
Who said anything about either? The Pharisees were corrupt under Roman rule, because the Romans didn't give a damn about their subject peoples' religious squabbles, just so long as they disrupt the peace and orderly passage of tribute. The Pharisees had no time for a reformer who was growing popular enough to get in their faces. The governor gave into the their request, because he didn't want any trouble - and it made no difference to him which local yokel his soldiers hoisted up.
Mobs always applaud public executions. It's what mobs are for.

The actual Jesus cult wasn't invented yet - and wouldn't be, until long after all these players were dead, and in another country.

Of course there are alternate motives by all but Jesus, but I don't see how any of these are the primary cause for the eventual murder of Jesus, except the results of exclusivity in religion.
Fine. It's an unimportant little snippet of history.

It very much reminds me of Hypatia, an atheist, who was a respected teacher and mathematician and astronomer, but was literally torn apart by a mob of monks, for teaching science. ....
....
Everybody had a political or religious stake in this tragedy, but the innocent pays the price. Typical and reminiscent of all subsequent hysterical religiopolitical psychotic trials and deaths, regardless of guilt.
Well, of course! Organized religion is tool of power.
The struggle isn't for the minds and souls of the mob - it's for their obedience. Who or what gets trampled by the process is immaterial to the contestants.
 
Who said anything about either? The Pharisees were corrupt under Roman rule, because the Romans didn't give a damn about their subject peoples' religious squabbles, just so long as they disrupt the peace and orderly passage of tribute. The Pharisees had no time for a reformer who was growing popular enough to get in their faces. The governor gave into the their request, because he didn't want any trouble - and it made no difference to him which local yokel his soldiers hoisted up.
Mobs always applaud public executions. It's what mobs are for.
And you are conveniently forgetting that Pilate declared Jesus inocent, but wanted to avoid a religious rebellion. People usually get killed during religious strife.
The actual Jesus cult wasn't invented yet - and wouldn't be, until long after all these players were dead, and in another country.
What are you talking about? The Jesus cult was a threat to the Pharasees, regardless of its later historic role.
Fine. It's an unimportant little snippet of history.
You continue to dismiss "inconvenient truths", while stressing "convenient truths".
Well, of course! Organized religion is tool of power.
The struggle isn't for the minds and souls of the mob - it's for their obedience. Who or what gets trampled by the process is immaterial to the contestants.
You mean a total corruption of the original message espoused by all religions?

Violence in context of imparting religious morality is a contradiction in terms.
 
You mean a total corruption of the original message espoused by all religions?
Look at the practice of institutional religion. Look what the religious leaders do, how they live, what kind of political leaders and government actions they support. Look at the wealth of the Vatican and tell me how it compares to the Jesus message.

Violence in context of imparting religious morality is a contradiction in terms.
Of course. All that contradiction is why children who grow up in strict religious homes/communities suffer some form of emotional dysfunction.
Violence - actual or threatened - is the only way religious morality is imparted to anyone.

The Jesus cult was a threat to the Pharasees, regardless of its later historic role.
They may have perceived Jesus as a threat, yes. (always assuming any of those gospels are a. authentic b. contemporary and c. true. You know the Nicaean council made shit up, right?) If so, it was not for his sermons. He didn't have a cult; he had twelve rag-tag disciples. If there was a threat, it would come from the rabble he might rouse. Maybe they thought his little band was terrorists/freedom fighters. Maybe they just wanted to flex some muscle on this big holiday, sway the crowd their way; demonstrate to the various resistance cells that the established order was in control.
If the biblical Jesus existed, he was a devout Jew in the tradition of Israel's long line of prophets, who pretty much all railed against the corruption of the elites of their day and blamed non-adherence to the Law (rather than geographic bad luck) for one invasion after another. They were - still are - revered by the temple establishment.
Jesus wasn't trying to start a new religion; he couldn't have, while he was alive. The center, the very crux of Christianity is his death. Anything he might or might not have said about living is still considered by most Christians as trivial compared the monumental fact of his death; without it, he's not the savior; he's just another hedge-priest. The first chronicles of this cult appeared fifty years after the death, written by a Turk, in Greece. It crept into Rome, Egypt, etc, slowly, barely noticed for another two centuries, no threat to anybody.
 
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But it is also said that, "God gave his own beloved son" as if it was a great sacrifice by God and not a very kind gesture to Jesus.
And apparently Jesus was not too pleased either with his daddy. He voiced his disappointment with: "Father, why hast thou forsaken me"?

So it comes down that it is our own guilt which compels us to elevate Jesus for being a martyr, a victim of religious prosecution. Thus, assigning a noble aspect to an evil act gets everybody off the hook, ......hallelujah.

Maybe its Jesus' way of being a fallen. He is the true light of the world after all.
 
Didn't need his bloody forgiveness.

Forgive me of my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me. You dont need Jesus' forgiveness if you dont want it, but it wouldn't hurt to forgive others, in fact I bet it'd make you happy.
 
Forgive me of my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me. You dont need Jesus' forgiveness if you dont want it, but it wouldn't hurt to forgive others, in fact I bet it'd make you happy.
How do you know I don't? I'm real, Jesus ain't.
 
Forgive me of my trespasses as I forgive those who trespass against me.
It wasn't Jesus' job to forgive sins or trespasses. His job was to buy God's forgiveness by shedding his blood, just as his ancestors bought the same god's forgiveness by cutting the throats of innocent animals.
 
It wasn't Jesus' job to forgive sins or trespasses. His job was to buy God's forgiveness by shedding his blood, just as his ancestors bought the same god's forgiveness by cutting the throats of innocent animals.
And did the ancestors succeed in "buying" God's forgiveness by cutting the throaths of innocent animals? Or make burnt offerings? (didn't Jesus have something to say about "burnt offerings"?)

If not, why assume that you can buy God's forgiveness by allowing yourself to be a sacrificial lamb, a martyr?

I think Jesus thought he was going to be spared by a miracle from God. And when he realized no miracle was forthcoming he cried out; "Father, why hast thou forsaken me? Jesus wasn't a happy guy, I think we can agree on that. He suffered a great deal, died, and nothing much has changed since.

But then, of course, the miracle happened belatedly, and Jesus was resurrected. Nobody witnessed that, but fact is his body disappeared so he must have gotten up and walked away, never to be seen again......:?

Is there a moral somewhere in all of this?
 
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And did the ancestors succeed in "buying" God's forgiveness by cutting the throaths of innocent animals?
Donno. Some point, the Israelites stopped doing it, but they never did accept Jesus as their messiah, so I guess they're still waiting for the right blood to get washed in.

If not, why assume that you can buy God's forgiveness by allowing yourself to be a sacrificial lamb, a martyr?
Don't matter why ; all that matters is belief.

I think Jesus thought he was going to be spared by a miracle from God.
Like Isaac, yeah? Joke's on him!

Jesus wasn't a happy guy, I think we can agree on that.
But lots of the beneficiaries are. They get to rule the world, walk all over the pagans and take their stuff, feel good about it and still be absolved of sin.
See? Invent the god who demands the acts you want to commit!

He suffered a great deal, died,
Only if he existed in the first place. But there is no doubt a whole lot people have suffered and died for little or no reason.

and nothing much has changed since.
It mostly doesn't. Maybe a little, here and there.

Is there a moral somewhere in all of this?
You want a moral? Read Aesop, not the bible.
 
They didn't count on his rabid antisemitism -
Given anti-Semitism was preached by the church for generations you could wonder about that...
The actual Jesus cult wasn't invented yet - and wouldn't be, until long after all these players were dead, and in another country.
Seems you know more than you let on earlier.
You dont need Jesus' forgiveness if you dont want it, but it wouldn't hurt to forgive others, in fact I bet it'd make you happy.
Sure but if one thought about it could a reasonable person not decide forgiveness has many advantages.
Why invent and use a made up character to tell us how to behave?
Finding morality in the good book is a cherry picking game. Anyways it's all just reinvented Sun worship and defenitely not original ... We may as well discuss Harry Potter or Spiderman if discussing fiction is the game.
I hope you are well.
Alex
 
Is there a moral somewhere in all of this?
Yes, yes indeed...if you are going to tell a whopper make sure it's a big one ...the bigger and the more unbelievable and unevidenced the lie, the better... As the arguments that follow give publicity to the lie and as some will buy it and some won't the end effect is you end up with more believers and when you believe these sorts of lies you want those who don't to go to hell whilst you tell them god God loves you.
JC was a Roman political invention that borrowed upon countless proceeding human gods modelled on astrology and Sun worhship.

Alex
 
Given anti-Semitism was preached by the church for generations you could wonder about that...
They preached it off and on, from place to place, as convenient for turning a mob or getting a loan.
But they didn't make it a tenet of the faith, to maintain deniability.
 
They preached it off and on, from place to place, as convenient for turning a mob or getting a loan.
But they didn't make it a tenet of the faith, to maintain deniability.
I recall a Christopher Hitchins video where he painted a picture that would suggest that "on" may have been the rule.
It would seem the politics had a fertile ground to sow the seeds of hate and according to Hitchins that ground was cultivated for generations by the church ...I don't know of course...But I always thought it odd so many could co operate in evil acts and certainly if they were taught from a young age who to hate one could perhaps understand the hate necessary for such evil was no something new...
But like everything in this thread it's all speculation...I mean my view that JC was a revamped Sun god is speculation and the parallels to the Sun..12 followers, death and resurrection after three days also could be a co incidence...all the human gods sharing similar characteristics to JC and the Sun may be stories created to discredit Christianity...maybe. I have enjoyed your replies. Thank you.
Alex
 
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