Write4U
Valued Senior Member
I thought the family feud began with two brothers long before Jesus came to the scene. Isn't there a story about Cain slaying his brother Able?
Jesus
- Thread starter davewhite04
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Sure - they were a minority who looked different from the general population, had different customs, even a different sabbath and kept themselves largely isolated. Like the Moors and Gypsies, who often served in a similar scapegoating capacity. Only, the Gypsies (Travelers, Roma, Romani) were uniformly poor, while many Jews were traders and bankers and later, industrialists. (The European aristocracy disdained financial enterprise, but loved to spend on wars, horses, gambling, clothes and ancestral castles, so they were often in debt to Jewish bankers and merchants. Thus, Jews made a more desirable subject for systemic persecution and occasional purges (with, concomitant seizure of property, natch), while Gypsies made good target practice for disaffected peasants who might otherwise turn on their masters. If they happened also to be Christ-killers, (which label you never see stuck on holy ol' Rome, even though the actual killing is supposed to have been carried out by Romans. Huh.) well that's just gravy!
People, especially in large mobs, have always been willing - nay, eager - to commit atrocity. Many kinds of evil, for many reasons, in many situations. Hate is only one motivation. Greed is another; envy, anger, lust; the chiefest of these is fear.
Hardly everything. The European history is minutely documented, by many historians with various points of view.
He's in the tradition of all fertility gods. The three day thing is unusual: both solar and agricultural season cycles tend to go from autumnal equinox (Yom Kippur) or winter solstice (Yule, birth of the sun) to spring equinox (Passover) or summer solstice (midsummer's night), so of course the death and rebirth of fertility deities is based on the solar calendar. Many mythologies come down from peoples who had knowledge of one another, but had the growing season in common - just as hunting and migrating peoples have similar mythologies related to the life cycle of their principal prey animal, and coastal peoples base their mythologies on the tides and ocean currents. No surprise that the things on which a people depends for survival should figure centrally in its world-view.
Cain and Abel, like Jacob and Esau or Joseph and his brothers, have nothing at all to with modern inter-denominational conflict.
Of possible relevance might be the rift between Ishmael (who was still a baby when Abraham abandoned him and his mother, Hagar) who is said to be the ancestor of Muhammad and his half-brother Isaac, (who didn't get sacrificed, after all) who is supposed to to be the ancestor of David. However, no Christians, including Jesus himself, come into any of those bifurcations in the biblical story.
The reason for blaming the Jews for Jesus' execution was simply to deflect blame from Rome, once Rome became the center of Christianity.
The reason for laying any kind of blame on people for a choice made by God is unclear.
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Here is a list that would add weight to the proposition that JC was in effect just another Elvis impersonator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Sixteen_Crucified_Saviors
Alex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Sixteen_Crucified_Saviors
Alex
I find the video unsatisfactory as historical documentary. Probably all facts, or mostly facts, but cut together in a deliberately dramatic manner, with many deletions, juxtapositions, assumptions (rather than proof) of cause-and-effect and little or no background information as to their provenance or context. I think they're connecting dots that are not demonstrably related. I do not find it convincing: they have not made the transition from fertility god to emperor. And I'm not hearing anything about the Christian underground, their crimes and arrests and persecutions.
Reading Gibbon or the Durants gives a much wider picture.
I also think the label 'impersonator' is wrong. 'Archetype' would be more accurate. There are many similar mythical characters in agrarian cultures. And, of course, many similar deaths and resurrections throughout world mythology. The Romans didn't invent King Arthur, Prince Csaba, Owain Lawgochand so on - leaders who are expected to return when their nation most needs them.
To identify that pastoral figure (Consider the lilies of the field...) with ruling-class Romans sounds quite a stretch to me. Certainly, Roman theology allowed for the inclusion of local deities and these were often identified with a Roman deity who filled a similar niche in the belief-system and were often depicted in the likeness of a prominent Roman of the time. But I've never seen one crossing class lines or switching functions.
The second link doesn't support the theory of a deliberate propaganda campaign; it supports the universal archetype.
Reading Gibbon or the Durants gives a much wider picture.
I also think the label 'impersonator' is wrong. 'Archetype' would be more accurate. There are many similar mythical characters in agrarian cultures. And, of course, many similar deaths and resurrections throughout world mythology. The Romans didn't invent King Arthur, Prince Csaba, Owain Lawgochand so on - leaders who are expected to return when their nation most needs them.
To identify that pastoral figure (Consider the lilies of the field...) with ruling-class Romans sounds quite a stretch to me. Certainly, Roman theology allowed for the inclusion of local deities and these were often identified with a Roman deity who filled a similar niche in the belief-system and were often depicted in the likeness of a prominent Roman of the time. But I've never seen one crossing class lines or switching functions.
The second link doesn't support the theory of a deliberate propaganda campaign; it supports the universal archetype.
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
I was not suggesting it was a historical documentary but that I found it interesting...thanks for your comments and reply.
Alex
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
The same argument can be made about the Bible.
It took some 1500-2000 years to compile the Bible in it's current form. And this was done by educated monks who had instruction on "cutting together in a deliberate dramatic manner" a compilation of stories and documents that prevailed during that time-span, but with many deletions, juxtapositions, assumptions (rather than proof) of cause-and-effect and little or no background information as to their provenance or context. I think they're connecting dots that are not demonstrably related.
Thus is the nature of the fictional literature, known as "divine revelation" or "mythology".
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
No. And perhaps I won't .I..need a video
Alex
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
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Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
It can be said about a lot of things.
I find that studying religion is so unending ...it just seems to get worse...it seems humans need something to believe in...their reality...we each have one...mine is getting complicated as we build our reality in a framework of what we know or rather what we think we know and although I don't know much I know a heck of a lot more than many and a much less than many more. ...I have not found reasonable grounds to disbelieve many things and what is left I keep open for an update...I think there is probably more chance of aliens landing on the white house lawn (and you could even calculate a probability for a Drake equation approach...than JC coming back and appologise for not getting back in the time indicated to those assembled to hear that promise...and how you work out a probability of there I just don't know...2000 years and counting.
The video sounds credible but I am not going to worry about it.. JC fills a spot for some...so what to believe in...science is good.
Alex
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Thanks I will watch them later...I realised today there was a time in our past where Venus Earth and Mars were all inhabited by our great great ancestors who were far more intelligent than us commanding technology we have yet to imagine they were wiped out billions of years ago but they put some DNA in time capsule and from this and secret science I was born in the lab sent here from more advanced times to show humans the way. Wouldn't you love to present that with a straight face on the net and see how many followers you would get ... A set of rules..promise that when enlightened I can pass the secret to enternity...I am starting to frighten myself the vision of that time is so vivid.. and why did our world disappear...mmm...they didn't listen to me.
Now what are the chances there?
Alex
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
There are probably good bits one could use ..I believe in the positive, I also know that I can manifest anything I like, but I have stopped doing that ...so many things you imagine and come true although good have a price . .. so I was thinking...the DNA was done using secret science but was done by aliens .well not aliens but our future selves sent back via a sharp bend in space time, which I can do and able to give lessons, 1573 lessons at $500 each ...but you would draw the aliens are with us set right in...oops just forgot..don't imagine things they come true .... Now wouldn't that be the pits, you start a movement where you have all these followers who worship you and expect you to answer all their problems ... I just realised that's all I am to most people, I listen ...that's my job...that DNA is really starting to kick in.
Alex
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
News release...a man had a vision that showed humans inhabited two other planets in the solar system namely Venus and Mars as well as Earth but at a level of both material and spiritual development way beyond our current brain power. The vision came after having ancient DNA injected into his spine ,during a back operation, by travellers from the future pretending to be visiting doctors only there to watch...
Alex
...( I have the scar so you know it's true)
Alex
Alex
...( I have the scar so you know it's true)
Alex
It wasn't an argument; it was a reaction.
And there is no comparison, since the bible is both a chronicle of a people's tribal history, belief and folklore, with a radically new religious story tacked on by representatives of a foreign culture with their own agenda - imperative, direct and entirely one-sided.
The video was an exploration of a personality cult, with a yet another completely different agenda - but made every effort to appear factual and objective.
Educated monks never got a look-in. Their job was to copy their bosses' version slavishly and prettily.
Maybe so, though I would argue that books of supposedly divine revelation are created and developed quite differently from folk mythologies.
I would be inclined to take that man seriously - if I didn't already know that Mars and Venus are uninhabitable and John Gray is a ass. And if i did consider that man's claim seriously, I could think up a series of questions whereby to reinforce or undermine his veracity; to investigate the substance of his claim.
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
Well what that could alert us to....the competition for minds shows the extra ordinary acts that get up.
Now we have stories that start with angels lending a golden Bible so the cult leader could translate it, using a "seeing stone" in his hat ... And then returning it so we unfortunately just have to take it on faith the story is true. But it is ironic how such can translate...at some level...it all and find a mechanism to manage their lives. They pick the good bits and invent ways how they are better off because....how do you judge that...well I guess you can't...or should not.
I had a friend into tarot cards, charged folk. I said you are a con man. He said I believe the cards work...he did..hard to accept but when you can think how he sees it...he then said that he helps people focus on problems so they may act...this card means relationship problem..oh I better ring Uncle Harry...I can see what he means..logic may not be able to motivate positive and necessary action but if it's in the cards I will do something to head off problems ...and if the cards exposure problems off the past just that makes the client happy...strange but it works, obviously if we look at actions based thereon etc...but of course folk could act negatively thinking they are in tune with the cards.
Maybe the doctors who injected the DNA could be time travelling angles and they read the golden Bible to me and because I was under was able to remember all of it...it's in the book..The Book of Zellah..
I think the thing that alarms me is I just know or feel or suspect...that if you put it out there and promoted it, as you would with any business, everywhere possible...heck just you tube could do it...I bet if I looked I could find sites where they are doing much the same thing...
I am so tempted to try...and the other reality your game may develop not on the basis of your new message but that you are an interesting but on YouTube...and if you got 20million hits how many do you think could become believers in the DNA story. That's the scarry thing.
Alex
The bounds of human credulity as uncharted as the bounds of human evil.
Hence my favourite quote from Voltaire:
"Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities."
I'm no signing up for your cult - I peeked at the last page and I abhor such scenes - but wish you luck.
Hence my favourite quote from Voltaire:
"Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities."
I'm no signing up for your cult - I peeked at the last page and I abhor such scenes - but wish you luck.
Xelasnave.1947
Valued Senior Member
I did watch all of these ...I was included to turn them off, being honest, but I was playing around with my little three string guitar....did not move me in any direction...spiritually insensitive I guess.
Alex