Jesus, the son of who?

Re: Re: God's child as well

Originally posted by Voltaire
why are you saying no? i remarked that if he was his son then i am his daughter. i think jesus was a cool man but he wasn't that different from any other human. explain what you mean by your statement.
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We are quite different from Jesus, in that until we are born again, we are not a child, we are his creation. similar to a ceramic pot, made by a ceramics worker, or a piece of furniture made by a carpenter. It is at our born again experience, that we are immediately adopted into His family.

Jesus on the other hand was biologically related to God the Father, He was never adopted, for there was no need.

The belief that all humans are God's children rather than simply His creation, was a myth that was developped during the enlightenment.
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned before or not on thread but according Barbara Thierings interpretation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, a virgin referred to state of marriage. Up towards the top of the religiouys hierachy, the man and the woman stayed a part when first married. At this time the wife was referred to as a virgin. As sometimes happened Joseph lost control during this stage and impregnated Mary. When this happened it was referred to as a virgin birth, a little to the opposite of the usual virgin theme. If you study her research into the scrolls there is no miracles or nothing. Rock rolling and all is explained in rational terms.

leeaus
 
Re: Re: Re: God's child as well

Originally posted by biblthmp
Jesus on the other hand was biologically related to God the Father, ...
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Well said! Perhaps you could clarify something: did the semen come from an Angel, the Holy Ghost, or God Himself?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: God's child as well

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Well said! Perhaps you could clarify something: did the semen come from an Angel, the Holy Ghost, or God Himself?
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The creator of the Universe, and all that is in it, would not necesitate the use of semen for the impregnation of a woman. He spoke all of creation into existence with a word, he can do the same for a body for His boy.
 
Originally posted by leeaus
Not sure if this has been mentioned before or not on thread but according Barbara Thierings interpretation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, a virgin referred to state of marriage. Up towards the top of the religiouys hierachy, the man and the woman stayed a part when first married. At this time the wife was referred to as a virgin. As sometimes happened Joseph lost control during this stage and impregnated Mary. When this happened it was referred to as a virgin birth, a little to the opposite of the usual virgin theme. If you study her research into the scrolls there is no miracles or nothing. Rock rolling and all is explained in rational terms.

leeaus
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And so, Joseph wanted to divorce her, because it was his kid? I think not.
 
Re: God's child as well

Originally posted by biblthmp
The creator of the Universe, and all that is in it, would not necesitate the use of semen for the impregnation of a woman. He spoke all of creation into existence with a word, he can do the same for a body for His boy.
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Be careful not to step into Arianism: Jesus is not the biological descendent of God. As the Muslims put it: "far be it from the glory of God to beget a son". As a human being, He was the biological son of Mary, inspired by God, the legal son of the marriage between Joseph and Mary, and the spiritual "son of God". Remember Jesus never referred to Himelf as the "son of God", but rather as "the son of man". Jesus is only son of God when relating back to God from a human perspective, which is why we can call Him thus. The implication is that Jesus was not created, but rather "revealed" by God for our creation, and later also our salvation (rebirth).
 
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I admit I'm Jesus' father. I swear I thought the sheepskin would work. Joseph was pissed at me. We're old college buddies. But that girl was a slut. Her maiden name was Magdalene...
 
Re: Re: God's child as well

Originally posted by Jenyar
Be careful not to step into Arianism: Jesus is not the biological descendent of God. As the Muslims put it: "far be it from the glory of God to beget a son". As a human being, He was the biological son of Mary, inspired by God, the legal son of the marriage between Joseph and Mary, and the spiritual "son of God".
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Correct, Jesus was the biological son of Mary alone, since she was not touched by any man. I wasn't aware that Mary was married and I doubt she was because being married implies a sexual responsbility and relationship with her husband which did not occur.

By your logic though, Adam and Eve are equal to Jesus or even superior in the fact that they didn't have a biological father or mother, and that makes them all spiritual sons and daughters of god, which means that Jesus is no different than Adam in the eyes of god.
 
Re: Re: Re: God's child as well

Originally posted by Flores
Correct, Jesus was the biological son of Mary alone, since she was not touched by any man. I wasn't aware that Mary was married and I doubt she was because being married implies a sexual responsbility and relationship with her husband which did not occur.
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They were engaged when Jesus was conceived. If Joseph did not actually break off the engagement, they were definitely married. Jesus' brothers and sisters are mentioned, although it is not really clear whether they were biological or just "spiritual" brothers. It's not important, though. We don't know what obligation Joseph and Mary felt to have more children, after Jesus was born. Those were definitely not normal times for them.

By your logic though, Adam and Eve are equal to Jesus or even superior in the fact that they didn't have a biological father or mother, and that makes them all spiritual sons and daughters of god, which means that Jesus is no different than Adam in the eyes of god.
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Not if Jesus existed before Adam, as Adam was supposed to have been created in "God's image". We know that Jesus was glorified by God, but that Adam sinned. That is a great difference in God's eyes.
 
Jesus equal to Adan and Eve?

No, Adam and Eve were created beings. Jesus was a pre-existant being. Jesus created all things. Adam and Eve created nothing. Jesus simply put on a "flesh coat" when he was born from Mary. Jesus has been around as long as God the Father has (Infinite Eternity).
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: God's child as well

Originally posted by Jenyar

Not if Jesus existed before Adam, as Adam was supposed to have been created in "God's image". We know that Jesus was glorified by God, but that Adam sinned. That is a great difference in God's eyes.
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Jesus didn't exist before Adam. It's clear in even the corrupt bible that god on the seven day after creating the universe sat on the throne ALONE. Then he created Adam. Genesis doesn't talk about god creating Jesus before Adam and doesn't explain the purpose of Jesus.

Adam sinned and he was forgiven, and Jesus sinned also as a human in many instances. Jesus got weak and questioned god when he was fed up with his own people, and I consider that a sin. Jesus as a god like you know who was created before time should never ask the question, why have you forsaken me? He should know his purpose and he should fulfill it without a question.

Mark.15
[33] And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
[34] And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

And how can you be so sure that Jesus never sinned. You have no account of Jesus life between the age of 10 and 30. He could have not shared a toy, or peed on himself and not tell his mom, or ate the last piece of cake in the fridge? How the hell do you know that he led a sinless life, and what is your definition of sinless?
 
Jesus didn't exist before Adam. It's clear in even the corrupt bible that god on the seven day after creating the universe sat on the throne ALONE. Then he created Adam. Genesis doesn't talk about god creating Jesus before Adam and doesn't explain the purpose of Jesus.
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Actually, it's not so clear. I wonder if God also spoke of himself as "we" in the Quran. But anyway, before Jesus actually became known on earth there would be no way of distinguishing between God the Father and God the Son. After all: God is one God. God did not create or beget Jesus. He created Adam as the first human.

Adam sinned and he was forgiven, and Jesus sinned also as a human in many instances. Jesus got weak and questioned god when he was fed up with his own people, and I consider that a sin. Jesus as a god like you know who was created before time should never ask the question, why have you forsaken me? He should know his purpose and he should fulfill it without a question.
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Those words were first uttered by David, and God did not consider it a sin then. If you read the Psalm, you see it is the cry of someone who knows that God will answer that question with "I have not forsaken you".

"Wondering why..." and "doubting that...", is not the same thing. We frequently call out to God in hope and desperation. If we did not believe in God, we would not have asked Him. It is a final sign of submission, not of rebellion.

And how can you be so sure that Jesus never sinned. You have no account of Jesus life between the age of 10 and 30. He could have not shared a toy, or peed on himself and not tell his mom, or ate the last piece of cake in the fridge? How the hell do you know that he led a sinless life, and what is your definition of sinless?
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Sin is rebellion against God and His laws. Peeing on yourself and not telling your parents is hardly rebellion. Not sharing is not the same as not loving. Sin is not something about "right and wrong" in people's eyes - that is easily forgiven by loving parents, sin is much worse: it is whether you are right or wrong in God's eyes. Some Jews were at a point where they were so afraid of sinning that they even refused to help people on the Sabbath, because it was "work". Sin is the disobedience of God's commands, and missing your purpose (the origin of the word means "to miss the goal". Jesus did not miss His goal, but fulfilled it every step of the way - He knew what He was supposed to do, and even though it was hard, frustrating, and He was sometimes deathly afraid, He still walked that path because God wanted it.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Actually, it's not so clear. I wonder if God also spoke of himself as "we" in the Quran. But anyway, before Jesus actually became known on earth there would be no way of distinguishing between God the Father and God the Son. After all: God is one God. God did not create or beget Jesus. He created Adam as the first human.
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God is only one and that's made very clear in the Quran. The use of the word we is out of respect and to glorify god by summing up his plural functions under his singular authority. I find the use of the word we very appropriate to describe god and is in no way contradictory to his oneness and singular authority.

Originally posted by Jenyar
Those words were first uttered by David, and God did not consider it a sin then. If you read the Psalm, you see it is the cry of someone who knows that God will answer that question with "I have not forsaken you".
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Sin is not a bad thing, Jenyar. God's infinite compassion and mercy can encompass any sin. It's us humans that try to judge others and attribute sins to others that abuses the concept and undermine the compassion and mercy of god.


Originally posted by Jenyar
Sin is rebellion against God and His laws. Peeing on yourself and not telling your parents is hardly rebellion. Not sharing is not the same as not loving. Sin is not something about "right and wrong" in people's eyes - that is easily forgiven by loving parents, sin is much worse: it is whether you are right or wrong in God's eyes. Some Jews were at a point where they were so afraid of sinning that they even refused to help people on the Sabbath, because it was "work". Sin is the disobedience of God's commands, and missing your purpose (the origin of the word means "to miss the goal". Jesus did not miss His goal, but fulfilled it every step of the way - He knew what He was supposed to do, and even though it was hard, frustrating, and He was sometimes deathly afraid, He still walked that path because God wanted it.
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This is a subjective evaluation on your part on what consitutes a sinless life. You said that walking the path that god wants constitutes a sinless life, then how could you say that Jesus is the only sinless person, while you don't know of the many others that have walked the path of god. Again, only god can judge our sins, and jesus himself could not judge himself and say that he is pure.....God will judge him.
 
The ultimate sin

Originally posted by Flores
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I find the use of the word we very appropriate to describe god and is in no way contradictory to his oneness and singular authority.
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(I like your description of God referring to itself as "we." Since God encompasses all creation, it's on fitting that we refer to God as "we.")
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Sin is not a bad thing, Jenyar. God's infinite compassion and mercy can encompass any sin. It's us humans that try to judge others and attribute sins to others that abuses the concept and undermine the compassion and mercy of god.
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(The ultimate sin is separating ourselves from God. When we remove ourselves from the One God, this is the ultimate sin. Essentially, there is not much difference between a little sin and a big sin. It's the degree to which one removes himself from the efficacy of God's grace. The only reason we are here on Planet Earth is to carry the Spirit of God to all creation. We jeopardize the prime goal of our 'mission' when we remove ourselves from God. I believe this was the message the Rabbi Jesus tried to get across. "The kingdom of God is WITHIN.")
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This is a subjective evaluation on your part on what consitutes a sinless life. You said that walking the path that god wants constitutes a sinless life, then how could you say that Jesus is the only sinless person, while you don't know of the many others that have walked the path of god. Again, only god can judge our sins, and jesus himself could not judge himself and say that he is pure.....God will judge him.
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(Even Jesus experienced doubt and fear. Although I don't believe in the Xfiction, Jesus was supposed to have said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus must have felt that the Spirit of God was no longer within him. I'm sure we all must have felt this at one time or another--like "where is God in my life?" The simple answer is that God doesn't leave us--we remove ourselves from God. We are not "God's chosen people" because God has chosen US. We are "God's chosen people" because WE choose to be One with God!.)
 
Re: The ultimate sin

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Originally posted by Flores
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I find the use of the word we very appropriate to describe god and is in no way contradictory to his oneness and singular authority.
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(I like your description of God referring to itself as "we." Since God encompasses all creation, it's on fitting that we refer to God as "we.")
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Sin is not a bad thing, Jenyar. God's infinite compassion and mercy can encompass any sin. It's us humans that try to judge others and attribute sins to others that abuses the concept and undermine the compassion and mercy of god.
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(The ultimate sin is separating ourselves from God. When we remove ourselves from the One God, this is the ultimate sin. Essentially, there is not much difference between a little sin and a big sin. It's the degree to which one removes himself from the efficacy of God's grace. The only reason we are here on Planet Earth is to carry the Spirit of God to all creation. We jeopardize the prime goal of our 'mission' when we remove ourselves from God. I believe this was the message the Rabbi Jesus tried to get across. "The kingdom of God is WITHIN.")
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This is a subjective evaluation on your part on what consitutes a sinless life. You said that walking the path that god wants constitutes a sinless life, then how could you say that Jesus is the only sinless person, while you don't know of the many others that have walked the path of god. Again, only god can judge our sins, and jesus himself could not judge himself and say that he is pure.....God will judge him.
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(Even Jesus experienced doubt and fear. Although I don't believe in the Xfiction, Jesus was supposed to have said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus must have felt that the Spirit of God was no longer within him. I'm sure we all must have felt this at one time or another--like "where is God in my life?" The simple answer is that God doesn't leave us--we remove ourselves from God. We are not "God's chosen people" because God has chosen US. We are "God's chosen people" because WE choose to be One with God!.)
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I am in total concordance with you!
 
Re: Re: The ultimate sin

Originally posted by Voltaire
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I am in total concordance with you!
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(Right on, Voltaire!)
 
Dead sea scrolls interpreted by the pacha method tell you how the Jesus story has got right out of hand.

leeaus
 
Pacha method?

Originally posted by leeaus
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Dead sea scrolls interpreted by the pacha method tell you how the Jesus story has got right out of hand.
leeaus
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(First, let me say that I am having a problem getting my posts to appear! My computer seemed to have frozen up earlier, and I had to reboot. Since then, none of my posts are sticking!

leeaus, this is a very interesting statement you have made. Please explain the "pacha method" and how the Jesus story got out of hand.

Thanks, (I hope this one takes!)
 
Medicine woman the book is JESUS THE MAN by Barbara Thiering. Its about the gospels being read at two levels.

http://info.anu.edu.au/mac/Newsletters_and_Journals/ANU_Reporter/_pdf/vol_29_no_02/row1.html

Her book has detractors but worth a read. The water to wine, walking on water etc are explained in the parlance of the day, not miracles. When it comes to him dying on the cross, her interpretation is he didn’t. After a while those in pain on a crucifix were offered a poison. Jesus took this but was given an antidote by a few of his followers. Forgotten some of the details now but for anyone wondering about the unlikelihood of what is proclaimed as fact it is insightful.

http://thiering.net/jesus.htm

all the best with your computer

leeaus
 
Sin is not a bad thing, Jenyar. God's infinite compassion and mercy can encompass any sin. It's us humans that try to judge others and attribute sins to others that abuses the concept and undermine the compassion and mercy of god.
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I never realized Muslims (or is it just yourself?) didn't see sin as something very serious. That is definitely not the idea that was passed on since Abraham - sin has always been the only thing that separates us from a meaningful relationship with God.

To put it more forcefully: sin is that which will prevent you from entering God's kingdom.

I agree that sin is encompassed by God's mercy, but "encompassed" doesn't mean God tolerates it, it means every way is out. When we turn from sin we turn to God.

I'll put it another way, that might make more sense to you: you say that submission to God is all that is necessary for salvation. Then whenever you do not submit to God you have strayed from the path and are guilty of being a sinner! Surely that is serious?

I have another question for you, Flores. How does the Quran say sin is punished, or isn't it? Is justice served on earth, or only after death? What are the consequences for not obeying God's command to love?
 
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