Jesus, the son of who?

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
No. Christians are only repeating a story, True. Sometimes called history.
written decades or centuries after the time in question, Please substantiate
translated, (with the original languages still available)
redacted, by the authors (it's called "writing")
and harmonized, With what? Please substantiate
and purporting to represent what Jesus and David said. Also referred to as "biographical".

You continue to pretend to know what you don't know.
So do you.

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

What I find sad, Jenyar, is that you know better. You're simply being dishonest, that or pathetically naive.

 

[Jenyar]

What is really sad, CA, is that you would resort to ad hominems rather than supporting your wild statements. If you are so convinced about your allegations, surely you have the evidence to back them up?

 

[atheroy]

written decades or centuries after the time in question, Please substantiate

sorry jenyar, but ca is most definately speaking the truth here. noah's story was written 300 years after the purported event, and that is a very important story in the bible. don't ask me to back this claim up because i'm working from memory.

No. Christians are only repeating a story, True. Sometimes called history

in this frame of mind everything would have to be considered as actual history on the basis of reoccuring themes. you could almost claim aliens are real if you use this idea to prove fact.

by the way, aliens have definately NOT visited this earth, maybe apart from the venus fly trap, but that is not the hyper evolved/intelligent being people are always talking about. i wonder why people's stories always are at their zenith, they can't get any bigger; intelligent life forms from another planet abducting people, ancient spirits conveying themselves through people e.g. definitive christian beings. it makes me tend not to believe what i am being told as it is a human trait to make something as wonderful as can possibly be. like that dweeb who talks to people's deceased relatives on tv (the guy from britain). i haven't seen so much shite come from one persons mouth in my whole life.

 

[Jenyar]

I guess I'll have to clear up a little of the mud left on the floor after CA and I had finished our discussion...

When CA says Christians are only repeating a story, it must be the Christian story - i.e. that of Jesus, which was not written centuries after the event of his death. It is true that we base our religion on the history of Judaism, but our "story" begins where their history ends. Which brings me to your next point.

I did not say "always called history", I said "sometimes called history". If you don't acknowledge the history of the Jews as representing history, it is something I can't change. Likewise the history of Christianity.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
As God chose Abraham, so does He choose those who follow Him. Because He has called us "sons", we call Him Father. It is the message that Jesus brought.

Even that is not true. The use of the word bin or bani in ancient Hebrew and Arabic should not be translated into son, it means merely followers of or the property of. Bani Israel, are not the sons of Israel, but the property of Israel. As you know countires don't father people but contain them.

And please don't say that son is used by Christians for relation demonstration only and not to disrespect god by bringing to the status of humans, because the next lesson in the christian church is that we are godly and that those of us who believe in the god christ is the son or daughter of christ to be saved by christ, rather than saying that god is great and will judge us all equally by his discretion and noone knowns what is hidden in the day of judgement.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
You are also in a relationship with God because you know Him

No I'm in an eminent relationship with god as a creation and him the creator, regardless of whether I know him or not, I'm still in a relatioship with him as a creation. I can't be born without his command, I can't live one more day that my decreed date without his command, I can't change the past nor alter judgement day...I'm in complete and total subjection to my creator and that's an ultimate relatioship that knowing something, specially that you yourself must have found out from our discussion here about the existance of god that no one knows shit about god really.
The christian logic is faulty implying that the relationship with god is only established via knowing him and acknowledging him, while god knows his creatures all of them the good and the bad by default since he created them.

Originally posted by Jenyar
Christians are only repeating what Jesus and David said. As God chose Abraham, so does He choose those who follow Him. Because He has called us "sons", we call Him Father. It is the message that Jesus brought.

Christians are repeating the corrupt diluted version of the bible that they recieved and the number one pointer to their lack of understanding and corruption of text is the multi sects that profess to study the same book yet each of them reach entirely different conclusion. For god sake, you and the jews study half of the book that was supposidly leading to Jesus and claiming that before Abraham was I, yet the jews don't even know what Jesus is. Are you the only rightous soul here son of god with bounty of understanding and the rest of us are all sons and daughters of mules or something.

 

[firingseeds]

flores

well, we know the christian teaching is based on god's promise to abraham, as opposed to the law, which was provided for much later. in that sense abe is our father- the promise being to his seed, jesus, not many seeds ( the teaching of paul ). in jesus is fulfillment from hell.
bedouin saying- the more u see, bigger the sky, and hell.

in jesus, flores, is grace of judgement. i don't think jesus is about bringing shame upon the hapless victim- nor do i think jesus be cruel. in accordance to religious instruction, the flower reveals the honey or bitterness of it's own fruits. man's conceptual images are not god's. god is absolute, yet we love him!
jesus has the strongest teaching, and a good moslem soul relates thru his own grace of spirit.

 

[Flores]

Firingseeds,
You are again like always playing god and putting yourself in the shoes of god as the church teaches you and handing out grace, love, and salvation at your whim and baseless of any knowledge. Your words are dancing around the subject and any logic, and while they may appeal to the naive uneducated, they're quite out of tune and disturbing to those who have an ounce of understanding and believe in personal integrity and responsbility.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Flores
Even that is not true. The use of the word bin or bani in ancient Hebrew and Arabic should not be translated into son, it means merely followers of or the property of. Bani Israel, are not the sons of Israel, but the property of Israel. As you know countires don't father people but contain them.

As in Osama "property of" Laden? Of course, children were considered "assets", but Israel was also the name of Jacob, who had real sons, who had descendents, who also had sons. "Son" means "related to" - as in a "certain relationship with".

No I'm in an eminent relationship with god as a creation and him the creator, regardless of whether I know him or not, I'm still in a relatioship with him as a creation. I can't be born without his command, I can't live one more day that my decreed date without his command, I can't change the past nor alter judgement day...I'm in complete and total subjection to my creator and that's an ultimate relatioship that knowing something, specially that you yourself must have found out from our discussion here about the existance of god that no one knows shit about god really.
The christian logic is faulty implying that the relationship with god is only established via knowing him and acknowledging him, while god knows his creatures all of them the good and the bad by default since he created them.

I agree, and that is what God said to David:

Psalm 2:7
I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my son; today I have become your Father [have begotten you]"

You are not in a relationship with God because you know Him. You are right: it is because He created you. He called David "son", and when Jesus "son of" David adopted us in God's name, we shared in His inheritance. It is not through knowledge or anything I can hope to do or know or achieve. I cannot save myself, I can only accept God's words.

That is why I dare to call Him Father.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
As in Osama "property of" Laden? Of course, children were considered "assets", but Israel was also the name of Jacob, who had real sons, who had descendents, who also had sons. "Son" means "related to" - as in a "certain relationship with".


I agree,
That is why I dare to call Him Father.

Jenyar, I don't know your native tongue, but mine is arabic as you know. Ibn, Bani, Ibni, are the only words used in the Arabic bible to describe Jesus relationship to god. The word Walad, meaning son, comes from Walid, meaning born into, and is the appropriate word to translate to son and is not used in the Hebrew or arabic bible. Ibn is merely the property of or assett of. In addition, the use of the word begotten together with Ibn confirms my idea that it's not a son, for god creates and not get. The word get implies that it was gotton from something exterior to it or given by something else. Who is this entity that gave god Jesus if god begot Jesus. God created Jesus and Jesus follows god as Bin God, and we are all Bin God, yet not sons of god......Do you get it?

 

[Jenyar]

That makes sense, and I agree with you, but the fact that David would make such a statement in the first place suggests that what he is talking about is not a natural association, but a decision. Why would God say "today I have begotten you" if we were "Bin God" anyway? Although we were implicitly "bin God" (all being created by Him), God made it explicit by choosing us. Just like God decides who will be with Him in heaven, He decides who are His children - they are those who listen to Him. Only God's chosen "children" have the right to call Him "Father".

 

[firingseeds]

flores, i'm just telling it as it is.
tell ya a story. this guy walks in the door. the occupant say's, who u think u are- a king or something? no, the guy replied, i just walked in.
u have become emotional.

well, flores, with your statement about jesus being created- like u and me- u have overcome and defeated all christian doctrine, and reasoning; which is based on the fact that jesus is uncreated.

take a bow. there is only one more hurdle for u to conquer, yourself.

 

[firingseeds]

oh, and flores, i don't have be nice- u should know that.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by firingseeds

take a bow. there is only one more hurdle for u to conquer, yourself.

Sorry to bring you the sad news, but I don't bow to myself, I only bow to my god. You go bow to yourself and worship yourself while you are at it as a son of god. Myself may be rotten eggs dressed with 5 year old horse radish, and so why should I bow to myself?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Only God's chosen "children" have the right to call Him "Father".

I quit Jenyar. The grand conspiracy to corrupt christianity and bible after Jesus death has been in crafting for thousands of years to ensure that poor souls like you who have an ounce of doubt about what they read, keep paddeling hard in a direction that you have no knowledge of which was conceived by the enemies of jesus.

God have to forgive you, you must be forgiven on ground of lameness and lack of knowledge of the message and I understand your position completely, because if I was in your shoes born into a corrupt faith that told me that I'm in the status of a god or a child of god or that the moon and sun is my god and I was raised reading the corrupt bible or worshipping a sun or a moon or embedded with the belief that I'm save because I'm a child of god, I would be defending this garbage with my all might as well, for it's the straw to my salvation.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by Flores
I quit Jenyar. The grand conspiracy to corrupt christianity and bible after Jesus death has been in crafting for thousands of years

Flores, I think it has become time for you to start substantiating your conspiracy theory that I am believing lies.

Question 1: Which books did Mohammed (pbuh) say were intact, and which were allegedly corrupted?
Question 2: Were Jesus' disciples liars or not?

... if I was in your shoes born into a corrupt faith that told me that I'm in the status of a god or a child of god or that the moon and sun is my god and I was raised reading the corrupt bible or worshipping a sun or a moon or embedded with the belief that I'm save because I'm a child of god, I would be defending this garbage with my all might as well, for it's the straw to my salvation.

You have a very twisted view of what I believe. Do you even want to know? Genesis mentions the sun and moon as creations of God. Only the pagan religions worshipped them as deities. I am not God, that is also a pagan belief.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
You have a very twisted view of what I believe. Do you even want to know? Genesis mentions the sun and moon as creations of God. Only the pagan religions worshipped them as deities. I am not God, that is also a pagan belief.

I can't find a better quote from the Quran than that one "You have your religion and I have mine" to describe how we should handle our fundemental differences in opinion.

 

[Robban]

To bad neighter the worshippers of Jesus nor the followers of Mohammad had any plans to follow that statement.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Robban
the followers of Mohammad had any plans to follow that statement.

Who the hell are the followers of Muhammed.? I thought muslims are the followers of god and Muhamed is but a stinking messangers, not in a form of insult, but in the fact that when Muhammed sweat like the rest of us he stank, Mohamed had no teaching previledges as stated in the Quran, he also have no previledge to decide the fate of his most beloved ones including dad, mom, uncles, wifes...This Quranic statement nillifies the validity of all Hadith.