Jesus is not God

[c20H25N3o]

This is the problem as I see it. If I step back on the "Christian worldview" and "believe", what then happens to me? Then I become a nervous wreck (not saying that I haven't been a nervous wreck while posting on these boards, cause it's been reminding me why I left Christianity in the first place). Once I "believe in Jesus", the other Christian ideas come with it. I have to be concerned about people going to hell. I have to go back to preaching to people. So it's going to make me insane. Why is this fair?

Relax. There is tons of support out there these days from like minded Christians. Plus you get a big bonus of the Holy Spirit which is just brimming with fruity goodness. Do not fear anyone. I don't. The worse they can do is ban me. It wouldn't be fair but what the hell. I hope they do not ban me cos I kinda like all the people here in an odd kind of way. Friends and enemies all round a table. I kinda like being the odd one out. Well apart from all the other Christian weirdo's

You know who you are

peace

c20

 

[c20H25N3o]

How in the WORLD can I relax thinking that there's some 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000+ infinity year torture pit that billions will be in or are in!?

How in the WORLD can anyone relax with that idea?

You are apparently stronger than I am. I take the idea of hell very, very seriously.

You must understand first off that God is fair. You are not better than He is at making these decisions. Remember Jesus' attitude towards those killing him "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".
God is love. Try not to double guess Him. This is what I mean by "Lean not to your own understanding."
God is bigger than man. Man is a speck of dust in comparison. It is our attitudes towards God that must be right. When our attitudes are correct, you will see things in a better light. You have to trust Him first. Then you will see.

peace

c20

 

[anonymous2]

You must understand first off that God is fair. You are not better than He is at making these decisions. Remember Jesus' attitude towards those killing him "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".
God is love. Try not to double guess Him. This is what I mean by "Lean not to your own understanding."
God is bigger than man. Man is a speck of dust in comparison. It is our attitudes towards God that must be right. When our attitudes are correct, you will see things in a better light. You have to trust Him first. Then you will see.

peace

c20

Yes, you SAY God's fair, but this same God says non-Christians go to hell. So what is fair to him? How can I relax with HIS idea of fair when it's not MY idea of fair?!

 

[David F.]

This is the problem as I see it. If I step back on the "Christian worldview" and "believe", what then happens to me? Then I become a nervous wreck (not saying that I haven't been a nervous wreck while posting on these boards, cause it's been reminding me why I left Christianity in the first place). Once I "believe in Jesus", the other Christian ideas come with it. I have to be concerned about people going to hell. I have to go back to preaching to people. So it's going to make me insane. Why is this fair?

I don't know what to say... Do you mean you left Christianity because you didn't like to preach? If you don't like to preach, then don't - I don't. I express my opinions as I see them and then if those listening want to believe me then great, if not then that's not my problem. People going to Hell has nothing to do with me - it has to do with God and I'm not God. I am only responsible for getting me to heaven (well maybe my children when they are young). OTOH, I love to discuss things with others - I even love to discuss Christianity as long as it doesn't get too tense and uptight. I don't get to discuss Christianity very often which is why I came to this forum - but it turns out we are not discussing religion after all. I guess I did have something to say after all...

 

[anonymous2]

I don't know what to say... Do you mean you left Christianity because you didn't like to preach? If you don't like to preach, then don't - I don't. I express my opinions as I see them and then if those listening want to believe me then great, if not then that's not my problem. People going to Hell has nothing to do with me - it has to do with God and I'm not God. I am only responsible for getting me to heaven (well maybe my children when they are young). OTOH, I love to discuss things with others - I even love to discuss Christianity as long as it doesn't get too tense and uptight. I don't get to discuss Christianity very often which is why I came to this forum - but it turns out we are not discussing religion after all. I guess I did have something to say after all...

I guess my mind is messed up or something. It's not that preaching is something I wouldn't like necessarily. But the thing is, if I preach, it's not just the "love of God" that could be in my mind. I'd have the "wrath of God" in it. So once I accept the Christian worldview, even if I don't like to preach, I will feel compelled to do so, and I don't see how you even sleep at night thinking such a hell exists. You may personally be comforted that you're not going there, but how can I not help but thinking of the others who will supposedly go there? How do you even sleep?

Maybe this is my "save the world" complex. And if it is, then I guess my mind is really screwed up.

Part of the reason I left Christianity, as I see it, is that it just does not make sense to me that there's some eternal hell. So how I can preach what I can't accept as a reality?

Part of the reason, as I see it. Not the only reason. I have other problems with it which I've expressed on this forum in the past.

Why do you say we're not discussing religion? What do you want to talk about? I think we've been discussing it, haven't we? And not just you and I. Others also.

 

[David F.]

I guess my mind is messed up or something. It's not that preaching is something I wouldn't like necessarily. But the thing is, if I preach, it's not just the "love of God" that could be in my mind. I'd have the "wrath of God" in it. So once I accept the Christian worldview, even if I don't like to preach, I will feel compelled to do so, and I don't see how you even sleep at night thinking such a hell exists. You may personally be comforted that you're not going there, but how can I not help but thinking of the others who will supposedly go there? How do you even sleep?

Maybe this is my "save the world" complex. And if it is, then I guess my mind is really screwed up.

Part of the reason I left Christianity, as I see it, is that it just does not make sense to me that there's some eternal hell. So how I can preach what I can't accept as a reality?

Part of the reason, as I see it. Not the only reason. I have other problems with it which I've expressed on this forum in the past.

Why do you say we're not discussing religion? What do you want to talk about? I think we've been discussing it, haven't we? And not just you and I. Others also.

I would say this is discussing religion, but the endless, pointless debate about whether or not there is a God is not a religious discussion.

Many years ago, I learned something that has helped me with the idea that others are going to Hell even if I am not. I am the child, and God is the adult. If the child spends all his time worrying about how to pay the rent or the bills, he get paranoid about things he has no control over. Further, it is an afront to the adult that the child would concern themself with such things because it shows an inherent distrust for the adult. In the same way, I should not concern myself with things I cannot control and are none of my business anyway. If I try to save the whole world, then I am making myself God since that is His job, not mine. Why would I even think I could do God's job? My job is to follow, to learn, to save myself and my family. Anything else is a lack of trust in God. Even to worry about such things is disrespectful. Does that mean I will never preach or share my faith? Not at all, since God may give me tasks to perform as part of my learning and growing up process. Some of those tasks might be to share what I have learned with others. If so, then God will cause those souls to cross my path or will send me to a particular place at a particular time (which God can do without me even understanding it is happening). Until these things happen, I need not worry about other people's relationship with Christ - that is Christ's job, not mine. I need to stick to my own knitting, as I suspect is also true for you.

 

[c20H25N3o]

anonymous2

The heart of a child is more precious than every star in the whole wide universe. God loves each very very tenderly to those who open their hearts to him. As Jesus said "The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these little children"
Thats the God of your childhood. The God of love. Jesus died speaking this message, his heart that of a child, the Lamb of God. We are saved through His love. We may know Him through the Holy Spirit which purifies us as children. God is bigger than us as David F says. We should trust therefore. All else is folly.

your friend

c20

 

[mis-t-highs]

You must understand first off that God is fair. You are not better than He is at making these decisions. Remember Jesus' attitude towards those killing him "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".
God is love. Try not to double guess Him. This is what I mean by "Lean not to your own understanding."
God is bigger than man. Man is a speck of dust in comparison. It is our attitudes towards God that must be right. When our attitudes are correct, you will see things in a better light. You have to trust Him first. Then you will see.

peace

c20

How can you say fair their is no excuse for your god sending people to Hell who do not believe in Jesus as the Christ? People born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country where belief in the Muslim faith is a law will almost certainly not grow up to be Christans. Why would this loving god of theirs create men and send them to Hell for growing up to be a good Muslim citizens? If the man is born in a Muslim country to Muslim parents, the chances of him changing his faith to Christianity is lower than his chances of winning the Lotto. Most people stay in the faith that they were raised in. Perhaps not the same sect, but still the same god. 99% of these "Good Christians" would be "Good Muslims" if they had been born in Iran/iraq etc Then they would be going to Hell, too. how fair is that coming from your loving god?.

and what of random luck such as being born to extremely violent, crime ridden, poverty stricken neighborhoods, or to extremely affluent parents who are politically connected with the community.

Therefore, a person who is born into an underprivileged drug addicted, and abusive family will have an enormous chance of leading a life full of angry resentment and serious brushes with the law as well as violating the ten commandments with wild abandon. Such a person would be much more likely to go to Hell than a fortunate soul who is born to an extremely well adjusted suburban upper-middle class family which raises their children in the Christian church.

Go ask all the "evil monsters" who deserve the death penalty in America's prisons about their childhoods. While you're at it, check out their IQ's. IQ tests are not at all a test of education. They contain no vocabulary or math question, but simply are comprised of problem solving exercises. Low IQ's indicate an inability to think in a logical manner, and therefore to create rational thoughts and decisions. Have you ever met an atheist with a low IQ? Have you ever met a relgious Fundamentalist with a high IQ? Do retarded people go to hell for not being good Christians? If not, then at what particular IQ level does this god start issuing exemptions? Why is it that this Christian god who professes to love the poor drops the greatest statistical chances of being patently violent and "ungodly" upon the poor people He supposedly loves so much?

The religious say it all the time. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." If they consider it God's grace that they were not so afflicted, then how is it that they can forgive their god for so afflicting others? How can a man who's children survived a hurricane say that God was watching out for them and offer prayers of thanks when his neighbor's children are dead from the same storm? Did those other children not deserve God's love so much as his? It is not conceptually sound that children who endure hell on earth should be sent to hell after death by a god who professes to love them so.


thank you musta


where is this fairness you mentioned, what your jesus should have said was father forgive yourself for being so evil, and leave the humans alone you sadistic bastard.
I am better then your god, I exist.

 

[stretched]

Yo c20 dude,

Quote c20:
"Jesus is top dog because of His SUFFERING whilst INNOCENT OF WRONGDOING."

If Jesus is God. Then. It is amazing that you believe your omnipotent god can actually suffer as a human. Mankind regularly suffers much worse fates than crucifiction, without the foreknowledge of ressurection and the comfort of knowing one is the almighty, omnipotent God. Ya think? Can`t you see the obvious paradox?

Ahem.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Yo c20 dude,

Quote c20:
"Jesus is top dog because of His SUFFERING whilst INNOCENT OF WRONGDOING."

If Jesus is God. Then. It is amazing that you believe your omnipotent god can actually suffer as a human. Mankind regularly suffers much worse fates than crucifiction, without the foreknowledge of ressurection and the comfort of knowing one is the almighty, omnipotent God. Ya think? Can`t you see the obvious paradox?

Ahem.

There is always benefit for those who suffer whilst innocent. God remembers each and every one. It is only if you suffer because you have done wrong that there is no benefit for you. In that case you just get what you deserve and God hopes you learn your lesson. Obvious isn't it?

peace

c20

 

[stretched]

Yo c20,

`K, so your answer is?

Quote c20:
"It is only if you suffer because you have done wrong that there is no benefit for you. In that case you just get what you deserve and God hopes you learn your lesson. Obvious isn't it?"

Nevertheless, at least you realise that your god does not forgive. But hey, whatever, gods big plan alowed for Adam to bring sin into the world. That`s why we get what we deserve right?

Ahem.

 

[c20H25N3o]

Yo c20,

`K, so your answer is?

Quote c20:
"It is only if you suffer because you have done wrong that there is no benefit for you. In that case you just get what you deserve and God hopes you learn your lesson. Obvious isn't it?"

Nevertheless, at least you realise that your god does not forgive. But hey, whatever, gods big plan alowed for Adam to bring sin into the world. That`s why we get what we deserve right?

Ahem.

You miss the point where I say "God hopes you learn your lesson". Repentance brings you round to face the right way. It is because God loves us that we are rebuked. Every good father punishes a willfully disobedient child to bring them back in line. The father does this because he loves his child. As I have said many times, "God makes His sun to shine on the wicked and the good".

I'll give you an example:

Dad: Come on get ready, you are going to make us late for the show tonight.
Son: I hate the rotten show. I don't even want to go to your rotten show. You can keep your stinking show.
Mum: Come on we have paid a lot of money for these tickets and you know you will enjoy it once you get there.
Son: F*ck you! I never said I wanted to go.
Dad: Don't speak to your mother like that. How dare you!
Son: F*ck you too.
Dad: *Whack*
Son: What the hell did you do that for? (nursing sore arm)
Dad: Because you were rude to your mother and rude to me. Now get ready.
Son: (sulks off to room)
Dad: Hurry up. We are waiting.
Son: Alright. I am coming.
Dad: We will be in the car.

Later at the show:

Son: Dad, move your arm will you I can't see.
Dad: I thought you didn't want to come (wry smile)
Son: Yeah whatever.
Mum: Can I get you two a drink? I am ever so thirsty myself.
Son and Dad simultaneously: Oh yes please.
Son and Dad look at eachother and smile.
Son: Fat coke for me and diet coke for fatty here.
Dad: Cheeky sod.
Mum: Three cokes coming right up. Be right back.

peace

c20

 

[mis-t-highs]

There is always benefit for those who suffer whilst innocent. God remembers each and every one. It is only if you suffer because you have done wrong that there is no benefit for you. In that case you just get what you deserve and God hopes you learn your lesson. Obvious isn't it?

peace

c20

it does not have to remember, it put them there, in the first place.
also none according to you bible are innocent, you have been found guilty by your god from birth, now thats nice of it.
how can you learn a lesson, when you are thrown in to hell for eternity, with out parole and or release. obvious it is not, unfair and cruel is what it is, just for being born, see earlier post.
please do read you bible c20, not just the funny pages.

 

[c20H25N3o]

it does not have to remember, it put them there, in the first place.
also none according to you bible are innocent, you have been found guilty by your god from birth, now thats nice of it.
how can you learn a lesson, when you are thrown in to hell for eternity, with out parole and or release. obvious it is not, unfair and cruel is what it is, just for being born, see earlier post.
please do read you bible c20, not just the funny pages.

Hi mis-t-highs,

None of us are innocent. Just this morning I found myself apologising to an old girlfriend who I treated miserably. She saw me from across the street and looked down at her feet. She has recently lost a sister and I felt terrible guilt for all I had put her through. I went up to her and she looked up. I said "Can I give you a hug?" and she put her arms around me and gave me a hug. We did not say anything but we made peace and it was good. I told her to be strong regarding her loss and that she would see her sister again one day. She said "I know." Her sister was a lovely girl, she looked after horses most of her life because they were more willing to return her affections than people were. She was a pill head towards the end of her life and gave herself over to a lifestyle that was not what she was used to. She got cancer as a result of this lifestyle that she adopted and she died. But her sister (my ex) could not bear the thought of never seeing her sister again because of course she loved her sister dearly. They are both sweethearts.
Love covers you mis-t-highs. Let the loveless, the wicked, worry about hell and damnation. As for you, be at peace. You know where you are going when you leave this earthly realm. Away from the wickedness that the evil do.
This may be hard for you if the world has bashed you up a bit, but to say the following prayer with the heart of a trusting child is power unto you. It is how we should pray.

Our Father, who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
As we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
and the power,
and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.​

I found this flash movie which I thought was quite nice too.

http://www.interviewwithgod.com/playprayer.htm

Be at peace. Only those who do wicked and do not repent need fear hell. This is not how it is for you. God bless.

c20

 

[Jenyar]

If they can be called upon to "invalid" his statement of union with the Father then why do you say my argument is flawed instead of the Bible's doctrine?

My point was that none of them are valid arguments. They can be "called upon" and then refuted.

Need I remind you, we have the recorded hearsay of biased believers decades after his death. My point there being I am actually being nice and assuming the Gospels are 200% accurate (which will be my convenient exit if you tear apart my argument far too quickly )

Your emphasis on "accuracy" belies your presuppositions. I know what you think about the Bible, and you don't even assume 95% accuracy - let alone 200%. We do not have "recorded hearsay" in the Bible any more than we have with any one person repeating what another said. It's a flawed argument and I hope you don't intend to pursue it.

You once quoted the infamous "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". That's an extraordinary claim, you know...

What we know about God(Jesus) is only what He has revealed to us, and we are limited by that knowledge.

Again assuming He is the one who "revealed" the New Testament, or at least the Gospels. It seems to me that this, instead, is arbitrary and unfounded.

My response to this is: who else could we be talking about? When we talk about Jesus, we both have to rely on the same sources. Only after we have dealt with interpretation of the first order can we proceed with the various criticisms that might apply. We haven't gotten that far yet. You can't simply ignore the authors' claims so you can justify your own.

A slice of omniscience can also equal nothing more than human intelligence, if you get my drift.

I do. Now think a little further than that. What did Jesus propose we could know - with certainty - through Him? That our sins have been forgiven, that our salvation has been secured. How could we know something that we can't know? Jesus knew that He would be raised from death because He knew God - for no other reason.

Jesus forgave sins committed against God. Consider that for a moment. Can you see why the Jews would have taken exception to that claim? "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mark 2:7).

Please provide these tantalizing evidences of omniscience, as has been supplied in the Gospels "on a number of occasions". The "fact" that we are dealing with a 'real person' makes a claim about his omniscience more wobbly. What could verses like 1 Sam. 16:7, 2 Chron. 16:9, Psa. 119:168, and Psa. 103:14 then mean if they are not to be viewed as contradictory? (Remember: If God limits himself in knowledge for even one moment then those verses become erroneous)

Let's see, here's an example close at hand: "Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, 'Why are you thinking these things?...' " (Mark 2:8). It fits perfectly with those verses. See also Peter's confession, "Lord, you know all things; you know I love you..." (John 21:17)

Apparently the council at Nicaea thought the same thing too..

The Council was in 325, right?

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).​

More at CARM: Early trinitarian quotes. The early church fathers were just as aware that this was a mystery as we are today - as God himself would have remained a mystery had He not intervened in our ignorance.

As I showed earlier, I am only going off what the Bible says about the extent of God's knowledge, not what I expect of him.

Then there should be no problem. We know that God knows our hearts and sees our future. But we do not know what God knows except if He tells us. Anything more, like insisting He should tell us why Jesus didn't know when He would return, is "what you expect of Him".

A mystery is not just a big "I don't know". It says something about knowledge and comprehension. With our postmodern emphasis on human reason, we have become prone to the fallacy of 'we can only know what we can understand'. Yet how many people understand love? It's a mystery. That doesn't mean we can't prod and probe its mechanics and manifestations, just that we haven't figured it out. There's no book or journal that can tell you how to prove someone loves you, or show you where its boundaries lie.

Or just plain He didn't know? Jeez, you are accusing me of making unfounded assumptions and there you go making one yourself. It is just as possible that this particular anechdote may have been contrived to answer the questions posed by many who impatiently wanted to know WHEN their Messiah was going to return. In fact, the same thing will be seen later on in 2 Peter in a response to scoffers and perhaps backsliders who were getting impatient themselves. That is a FAR FAR FAR more plausible explanation than throwing our hands up in the air and saying it is a mystery, esp. when it contradicts the Bible's own message.

But you have a problem with the possibility that Jesus did not know this, and specifically this. You seem to look past the fact that knowledge does not itself determine. What determines are actions - whether by God or people - and Jesus could not know what has not yet been determined. The particular way in which His knowledge was limited in this instance, while not in others, is a mystery particulat to the case. Since He was obviously limited (or had "emptied Himself" - Phil.2:7 NAS) in more ways than just this, it is not evidence of interpolation, or inconsistent.

John 16:29-
Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."
"You believe at last!" Jesus answered.

 

[mis-t-highs]

Hi mis-t-highs,

None of us are innocent. Just this morning I found myself apologising to an old girlfriend who I treated miserably. She saw me from across the street and looked down at her feet. She has recently lost a sister and I felt terrible guilt for all I had put her through. I went up to her and she looked up. I said "Can I give you a hug?" and she put her arms around me and gave me a hug. We did not say anything but we made peace and it was good. I told her to be strong regarding her loss and that she would see her sister again one day. She said "I know." Her sister was a lovely girl, she looked after horses most of her life because they were more willing to return her affections than people were. She was a pill head towards the end of her life and gave herself over to a lifestyle that was not what she was used to. She got cancer as a result of this lifestyle that she adopted and she died. But her sister (my ex) could not bear the thought of never seeing her sister again because of course she loved her sister dearly. They are both sweethearts.
Love covers you mis-t-highs. Let the loveless, the wicked, worry about hell and damnation. As for you, be at peace. You know where you are going when you leave this earthly realm. Away from the wickedness that the evil do.
This may be hard for you if the world has bashed you up a bit, but to say the following prayer with the heart of a trusting child is power unto you. It is how we should pray.



Be at peace. Only those who do wicked

even babys and cripples and blind people and and and etc who cant repent as they done nothing wrong

need fear hell. This is not how it is for you. God bless.

oh no it is'nt, I would rather burn in hell with all the innocents, than be with your cruel and callous evil bastard god.

thank you for the prayer but it's not needed, I am one of the lucky ones, I have no believe in you god/devil.
I've no need to repent as I said I have no believe in you god /devil
I 'm not guilty of any sin, I know what happens when you die, I would have told the truth to you ex about her sister, that she has no more pain.
but to tell her that she would see her again is cruel and callous, you should be ashamed of yourself.
I was told not to speak ill of the dead, and I adhere to that. did you really need to tell us she was a pillhead, she did'nt lead a godly klifestyle so she got cancer.
rubbish, I knew a lovely lady who worked in a petrol station never smoked never drank never took drugs not even headache tablets and was devoutly religious, died of cancer nov 1st 2004 RIP.
so please dont talk ill or stupid, if you cant say anything good about the dead dont speak.
and if you reply do not say sorry for your lose, thank you.

 

[c20H25N3o]

even babys and cripples and blind people and and and etc who cant repent as they done nothing wrong oh no it is'nt, I would rather burn in hell with all the innocents, than be with your cruel and callous evil bastard god.

Innocents do not go to hell. I said the wicked. Pay attention.

thank you for the prayer but it's not needed, I am one of the lucky ones, I have no believe in you god/devil.

All of us need help/love at some point, particulary the sick, the dying, the crippled, the orphans.

I've no need to repent as I said I have no believe in you god /devil

Just because you dont believe in justice doesn't negate the fact that everyone has done something they are not proud of. Some of us are just too proud to admit it.

I 'm not guilty of any sin, I know what happens when you die,

No you don't. No one knows for sure. Only those who have actually died will know.

I would have told the truth to you ex about her sister, that she has no more pain.
but to tell her that she would see her again is cruel and callous, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Her sister was alive to her. She was mad at her family who kept visiting her grave, burying her again and again with each visit. As for my ex - she has the same faith as I do. She believes God is a God of the living, hence her feelings towards the grave visitors. She too believes that she would see her beautiful sister again.

I was told not to speak ill of the dead, and I adhere to that. did you really need to tell us she was a pillhead, she did'nt lead a godly klifestyle so she got cancer.

I did not say she got cancer because she was evil. I said that she didn't trust people very much and found it hard to relate to them. She sought solace in pills because it made her not care what other people were like to her. The lifestyle that she adopted did make her very ill. The doctors confirmed this. The loss of her father at an early age contributed to much of her difficulties. Besides, these people were very very good friends of mine so do not make assumptions as to what I am saying. It is not wise. My ex would rebuke you for being so arrogant towards me.

I knew a lovely lady who worked in a petrol station never smoked never drank never took drugs not even headache tablets and was devoutly religious, died of cancer nov 1st 2004 RIP.
so please dont talk ill or stupid, if you cant say anything good about the dead dont speak.
and if you reply do not say sorry for your lose, thank you.

"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the DEAD shall be raised INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be CHANGED. For this corruption must put on incorruption, and this mortal MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY" (I Cor.15:50-53).

peace

c20

 

[mis-t-highs]

Innocents do not go to hell. I said the wicked. Pay attention.

"As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I will cut you off completely. I will show you no pity at all because you have defiled my Temple with idols and vile practices. A third of your people will die in the city from famine and disease. A third of them will be slaughtered by the enemy outside the city walls. And I will scatter a third to the winds and chase them with my sword. Then at last my anger will be spent, and I will be satisfied. And when my fury against them has subsided, all Israel will know that I, the LORD, have spoken to them in my jealous anger. "So I will turn you into a ruin, a mockery in the eyes of the surrounding nations and to everyone who travels by. You will become an object of mockery and taunting and horror. You will be a warning to all the nations around you. They will see what happens when the LORD turns against a nation in furious rebuke. I, the LORD, have spoken! (Ezekiel 5:11-15)

so all these people were wicked including the children and the babes in arms, you god was so pissed off you cant tell me he sent them all to heaven.

All of us need help/love at some point, particulary the sick, the dying, the crippled, the orphans.

thats as may be but I certainly dont require yours.

Just because you dont believe in justice doesn't negate the fact that everyone has done something they are not proud of. Some of us are just too proud to admit it.

who said anything about not believing in justice, ask you god about justice,, it does'nt know what justice is.
I also never said I was perfect, repenting and sin are to do with the religious, I'm not at all religious, do you understand that.

No you don't. No one knows for sure. Only those who have actually died will know.

how will they, they will be dead, no brain function, no heart function, dead.

Her sister was alive to her. She was mad at her family who kept visiting her grave, burying her again and again with each visit. As for my ex - she has the same faith as I do. She believes God is a God of the living, hence her feelings towards the grave visitors. She too believes that she would see her beautiful sister again.

then I'm sorry for her to be so deluded.

I did not say she got cancer because she was evil.

neither did I but you used that word so you must of thought it.

I said that she didn't trust people very much and found it hard to relate to them. She sought solace in pills because it made her not care what other people were like to her. The lifestyle that she adopted did make her very ill. The doctors confirmed this. The loss of her father at an early age contributed to much of her difficulties. Besides, these people were very very good friends of mine so do not make assumptions as to what I am saying. It is not wise. My ex would rebuke you for being so arrogant towards me.

just stating it like it is.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jenyar: We do not have "recorded hearsay" in the Bible any more than we have with any one person repeating what another said. It's a flawed argument and I hope you don't intend to pursue it.
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M*W: You're dancing around the bible again. I would I readdress your doubt about "recorded hearsay," because the NT was not "recorded" on hearsay. It was an independent story created by Paul in the epistles which influenced three of the four gospel writers. You only dance on the surface of the bible, you don't tap deep enough to have any truthful answers. That's what all christians do -- just skim the surface to present their version of the truth.
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Jenyar: Now think a little further than that. What did Jesus propose we could know - with certainty - through Him? That our sins have been forgiven, that our salvation has been secured.
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M*W: Again, Jesus never said this from his mouth, this is what Paul said!
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Jenyar: How could we know something that we can't know? Jesus knew that He would be raised from death because He knew God - for no other reason.
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M*W: Jesus knew he wouldn't be raised from death. Judaism doesn't teach resurrection of the body. Jesus knew of God from a rabbinical perspective. It was Paul who wrote about the resurrection, but it never occurred.
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Jenyar: Jesus forgave sins committed against God. Consider that for a moment. Can you see why the Jews would have taken exception to that claim? "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Mark 2:7).
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M*W: Jesus NEVER said he forgave anyone's sins. It was Paul who created Jesus as a blasphemer.
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Jenyar: Let's see, here's an example close at hand: "Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, 'Why are you thinking these things?...' " (Mark 2:8). It fits perfectly with those verses. See also Peter's confession, "Lord, you know all things; you know I love you..." (John 21:17)
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M*W: Your Markan verse was influenced by Paul who never knew Jesus. Your verse from John refers to someone who knew Jesus personally and was making the point that Peter was manipulating Jesus trying to 'prove' his love for Jesus (somewhat after the fact), because Jesus did not trust Peter, and Peter did not trust Mary Magdalene and scorned her in front of Jesus. This was Peter's way of trying to prove he loved Jesus more than MM.
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Jenyar: The Council was in 325, right?

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).​

More at CARM: Early trinitarian quotes. The early church fathers were just as aware that this was a mystery as we are today - as God himself would have remained a mystery had He not intervened in our ignorance.
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M*W: This was written by someone who loved Jesus dearly, and I believe the Gospel of John and Revelations were written by MM. Scholarly research defends this belief. The 'mystery' you refer to about Jesus intervening in our ignorance means Jesus tried to teach about enlightenment and not salvation.
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Jenyar: We know that God knows our hearts and sees our future. But we do not know what God knows except if He tells us. Anything more, like insisting He should tell us why Jesus didn't know when He would return, is "what you expect of Him".
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M*W: The big christian cop-out!
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Jenyar: A mystery is not just a big "I don't know". It says something about knowledge and comprehension. With our postmodern emphasis on human reason, we have become prone to the fallacy of 'we can only know what we can understand'. Yet how many people understand love? It's a mystery. That doesn't mean we can't prod and probe its mechanics and manifestations, just that we haven't figured it out. There's no book or journal that can tell you how to prove someone loves you, or show you where its boundaries lie.
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M*W: For the most part, humans understand this mystery but, perhaps, can't explain it. The only way a human can understand the mystery of love is to give love. In order to give love, that person must have a sense of self-worth. Christianity destroys this sense, so the only thing christianity can teach is self-worthlessness which is devoid of love.
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Jenyar: John 16:29-
Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."
"You believe at last!" Jesus answered.
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M*W: Again, written by someone who was close to Jesus, who heard his every word and passed it on to the ages. However, this did not include Peter or Paul.

 

[Jenyar]

How in the WORLD can I relax thinking that there's some 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000+ infinity year torture pit that billions will be in or are in!?

How in the WORLD can anyone relax with that idea?

You are apparently stronger than I am. I take the idea of hell very, very seriously.

Wouldn't it be infinitely better to start taking God seriously, and stop worrying about hell?