jesus christ is god

[firingseeds]

snake

in regard to your request, "kindly show me where god says he answers to his son". i replied: u have not listened. just as i have replied to most, if not all, of what u have asked.
the reply was given strait from the bible, from the lords own lips: (i repeat)
"for the father himself loveth u,
because ye have loved me,
and believed that i came out from god".
john 16:27

here is another:
as thou hast given him (jesus) power over all flesh, that he (jesus) should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. and this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true god, and jesus christ, whom thou hast sent.
john 17: 2 thru 3

"kindly show me where i told u to get a life". here u state:"u live in your little world of fear all u want. u be too afraid to embrace life".

i don't have any fear. i may shy back from things, but when it counts, i am fully committed. i live in the world and enjoy the world: looking forward to seeing the latest "matrix", and my favorite movie of all time is "the godfather".

i am also a liberal. a jew doesn't have to become a christian; just embrace their inheritance, which is in god's time, not man's. i'm positive i quoted from romans earlier stating some facts of salvation. "for whenever gentiles, who have no law, do what the law requires, then these, even tho they don't have law, for themselves are law! for their lives show that the conduct the law dictates is written in their hearts." romans 2:14-15.
and again: (which i'm sure i am repeating), if anyone hears what i am saying and does not observe it, i don't judge him; for i did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. those who reject me and don't accept what i say have a judge - the word which i have spoken will judge them on the Last Day. john 12:47-48.

"what was it that made life unreal to u before jesus' arrival'.
answer: until i knew god really existed there was no point to the world, (i have stated that back earlier, i think.)

"the fact remains neither of us know the answers".
where do u justify speaking on my behalf?

the fACTS u state about jesus not being god are weak. i do not know if u are aware of that. u do need an overall understanding of the gospel , not a partial understanding, to gain a better overall perspective. FACT: JESUS IS THE LAW. now work from that aspect, please.

please do your homework. there is a lot for u to work thru. u know, u don't have to know everything to be happy. i don't, i'm happy.
cheers, elder snake.

 

[firingseeds]

proud syrian

hi! it's going to be very difficult replying to your post, and for a variety of reasons. for a start, u did not quote the bible correctly, substituting your reasoning for quoted word, (unless u are reading from a bible i havn't heard from?). in my bible there is no mention of the name jehovah in matthew 4:6? is that an assumption, or a gospel i havn't read?
do u accept the gospel of jesus christ as gospel truth? do u accept that jesus is god's son? without these things, how could u recognize anything explained, as u do need a pretty comprehensive understanding of bibical truth to grasp the realities of what we imply as a holy trinity. i think u need to re-evaluate: think about it.
i hear there is still a village in syria that still speaks and writes in aramaic, the old language of the jews. i believe it's dying out tho, which would be very, very sad.
cheers

ps. and i still have your posting in mind. some of the answers u are looking for have already been answered. it seems u havn't really read anything further back, but want it repeated again for your benefit: which i don't mind, unless it falls on deaf ears.

 

[davewhite04]

Re: Re: jesus christ is god

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian

In Mathew 4:1-2 "Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil. After he had fasted forty days and forty nights, then he felt hungry." One has to ask himself a very simple question here: Why would Jesus allow the Devil to lead him to the wilderness to try to tempt him if he were God? This clearly proves that Jesus is not and can not be God!!!.

Jesus was led into the wilderness by the spirit not the Devil...

 

[firingseeds]

thanks dave

 

[davewhite04]

Re: Re: jesus christ is god

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
I am going to refute the concept of christian trinity or Jesus is GOD by using the bible ITSELF:

How can Jesus be God when he himself worshiped God ???

Jesus never claimed to be God, he is the SON of God according to christianity.

 

[firingseeds]

yeah, nice one again, dave.
cheers

 

[davewhite04]

Re: Re: jesus christ is god

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian

reading all these verses from the bible will confirm to any person with only little inttelligence that Jesus is NOT God and so the trinity concept collapses when these verses looked at and studied.

finally, is it trinity or is it 1+1+1 = 1 ????????????????

The Trinity is the term used to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion.

The truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three truly distinct Persons: the Father, the Son(Jesus), and the Holy Spirit.

The New Testament Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"

 

[EvilPoet]

The Trinity

In Religion, the Trinity is a central doctrine of most branches of Christianity. Historically, as evidenced by the Nicene and Apostle's Creeds used by most of Christianity, the Holy Trinity refers to what Christians say are the three persons of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of the Trinity does not appear explicitly in the Bible (indeed not even the word itself is found there), but there are many passages that believers in it point to as implying it. One of the clearest passages is the baptism of Jesus Christ: And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. (Matthew 3:16-17, RSV). Thus the three persons of the Trinity were made manifest at once. This is commemorated each year in the Church at the Feast of Theophany on January 6.

[More...]

 

[firingseeds]

proud syrian

this, i posted down the track; but i repeat it here for your benefit.
read it...and just absorb it.
hope it helps. cheers

JESUS THE MAN

philippians 2:5 thru 11

let this mind be in u, which was also in christ jesus:

who, being in the form of god, thought it not robbery to be equal to god:

but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

wherefore god also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

that at the name of jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth:

and that every tongue should confess that jesus christ is lord, to the glory of god the father.

 

[firingseeds]

off the record

by absorbing, proud syrian, u too can be part of the holy trinity.

 

[EvilPoet]

"by absorbing, proud syrian, u too can be part of the holy trinity."

Syrian: a native or inhabitant of Syria

Religions: Sunni Muslim 74%, Alawite, Druze, and other
Muslim sects 16%, Christian (various sects) 10%, Jewish
(tiny communities in Damascus, Al Qamishli, and Aleppo)

Source: CIA World Factbook

"Isa is the name given in Islam to Jesus as an ordinary human being. Muslims do not believe that Jesus was of divine origin, but consider both him and Muhammad to have been men, and to have been the last two Prophets of Islam. Thus "Isa" is not equivalent to "Jesus Christ" as "Christ" implies divinity." [More...]

"Islam is an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion founded in the 600s based on the religious text known as the Quran. According to Islam, the religion was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad when Allah sent an angel to dictate a series of revelations to him, which Muhammad memorized. Muhammad was illiterate, and his followers later wrote down Muhammad's memorized revelations to form the Quran. Muhammad is considered to be the final prophet. Adherents of Islam are called Muslims (sometimes spelled "Moslem".) In some older English texts they are referred to as "Muhammadans" or "Mohammadan"; however this term is not commonly used because Muslims find it offensive, as this term implies that they worship Muhammad, which they do not." [More...]

 

[SnakeLord]

the reply was given strait from the bible, from the lords own lips:

Umm how were they from 'the lords own lips'? it seems jesus said that, not god. The difference can be clearly seen if you read the passage. I said: tell me where god says, thus far you have failed. Jesus can say whatever he wants- and would say the same thing even if he was indeed a false prophet asking people to turn their worship away from god and to him. It remains evident god and jesus are completely separate entities and it was god himself who said not to worship other gods, yet you still do regardless. Not to mention how readily many have fallen for it and break yet another of his commands by filling their homes and places of worship with golden idols of 'another god'. You obviously agree that god and jesus are completely separate entities as i notice you said this:

yeah, nice one again, dave.
cheers

in reference to this:

He said: Jesus never claimed to be God, he is the SON of God according to christianity.

Was he wrong to say he was the son of god? Isn't every human the son of god? Yet by worshipping him you are going against the constantly spoken ruling of god. You have even completely replaced god in order to worship this being. It also says many times he is 'the son of man'. Aren't we all the son of man? Ok he could do miracles- but what makes you think the devil cant do amazing things in order to lead you away from god and into the arms of evil? Considering jesus didnt fulfil the prophecies it would seem obvious he's nothing more than a false prophet tempting you to evil.

Why do you think he got crucified if he was as good as you say? Wouldn't it stand to reason the people at the time would know slightly more about the situation than you do? Do not forget you go solely on the word of a book written by those people.

here is another:
as thou hast given him (jesus) power over all flesh, that he (jesus) should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. and this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true god, and jesus christ, whom thou hast sent.
john 17: 2 thru 3

That too was said by jesus. You're not very good at this are you? However look at what jesus says while praying to god, (obviously not praying to himself):

"That they may know you, the only true god, and jesus christ whom you have sent."

Jesus clearly states god is the only true god- he would be nothing more than a prophet of god and in no way deemed as being there for you to worship. There have been many prophets of god- do you worship, bow down and wear golden idols of them? If jesus prays to the ONLY true god, wouldn't it be apparent you are in fact going against that ONLY true god's command by worshipping someone else? Take your place alongside the rest of us sinners in the burning pits of hell.

i don't have any fear

You should do shouldn't you? You tell me- surely you can pick out any relevant passages... :bugeye:

a jew doesn't have to become a christian; just embrace their inheritance, which is in god's time, not man's.

The jews dont fall for temptation of evil as readily as some of you seem to do. They keep gods commandments. This is what christians tell me: 'The OT doesn't have any meaning for us, there's only one rule which is: love thy neighbour.' The christian way is to break everything god commanded into pieces, pick whatever they choose and ignore the rest in order to worship someone who isn't a god but is most likely a false prophet.

Funnily enough you will find extreme confusion in the bible around the time of jesus.

They can't even agree on whether you get into heaven through faith, through works, or through both.

Judas killed himself but later died by falling over and spilling his guts.

If they, who are the disciples of jesus- who is god, (or worthy of worshipping), surely they'd get it right? Then we must ask why one of his disciples went against him in the first place- he found out just what jesus really was perhaps? He then went and killed himself because he had been led like a lamb to the slaughter. Other stories were then made up about him to make him look like the bad guy.

"if anyone hears what i am saying and does not observe it, i don't judge him; for i did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. those who reject me and don't accept what i say have a judge"

jesus can't judge- he's not a god, but to "save" the people- to lead them away from the ONLY true god. Those who reject him have a judge: the ONLY true god. Most did reject him back then... they knew he was but a man possessed by evil. Instead they chose to worship the ONLY true god.

until i knew god really existed there was no point to the world

How did you find this enlightenment, if i may ask?

"the fact remains neither of us know the answers".
where do u justify speaking on my behave?

God told me to. Got a problem? Tell him.

the fACTS u state about jesus not being god are weak.

Then offer a worthy debate against one. It can't be that hard considering they're 'weak'. However, thus far you've failed miserably instead going out of your way to attempt to insult. You do the same with Proud Syrian, who although has said something similar to what i have, has offered it from a completely fresh perspective. You resort to subtle insult as an answer instead of actually facing the issue. Not to mention we can see how when a non-religious person says god and jesus are not one and the same you disagree and say they need to learn more, yet when a religious person says the same thing you go: "yeah, nice one again, dave." You get stuck- claim you have been beaten this day but will come back with good debate but then arrive later with nothing more than petty insult? Fair enough.

So the 'facts'? i state about jesus not being god are weak? Then why did you agree to them when a religious person said exactly the same thing? The fact is you don't have a clue what you're talking about. But i'll just leave this quote for you...

"That they may know you, the only true god, and jesus christ whom you have sent."

Evidently jesus has merely been sent by the ONLY true god. jesus himself said that and you ignore it.

u do need an overall understanding of the gospel , not a partial understanding, to gain a better overall perspective.

Im aware of that... are you?

FACT: JESUS IS THE LAW. now work from that aspect, please.

jesus was a fraud. Work from that aspect please. I leave posts to show exactly why JESUS IS NOT THE LAW and as such have no reason to place my 'trust' in such an idea. Now is your turn to rebuke my claims to jesus being a fraud, rebuke the claim that he's not god. He himself said so- you might have a hard time.

please do your homework. there is a lot for u to work thru. u know, u don't have to know everything to be happy. i don't, i'm happy.

This is the best you can offer? Stupid little insults? Do not reply to me with this shit, it's a waste of my time and a waste of forum space. Want to debate the issue? then do so. If not - go share your arrogance with someone who cares.

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by SnakeLord
It remains evident god and jesus are completely separate entities and it was god himself who said not to worship other gods, yet you still do regardless. Not to mention how readily many have fallen for it and break yet another of his commands by filling their homes and places of worship with golden idols of 'another god'. You obviously agree that god and jesus are completely separate entities as i notice you said this:

Interesting points Snake, I'll have a stab at this paragraph first.

When God said you are to worship no other God, Jesus was but a twinkle in his eye, so he couldn't very well say oh and you may worship Jesus when Jesus hadn't even been born.

Regarding idols and such, again time had passed and these idols remind christians that Gods once mortal son died for our sins, remember these statues and crucifixes remind christians of the mortal Jesus, not another God.

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by SnakeLord


Was he wrong to say he was the son of god? Isn't every human the son of god? Yet by worshipping him you are going against the constantly spoken ruling of god. You have even completely replaced god in order to worship this being. It also says many times he is 'the son of man'. Aren't we all the son of man? Ok he could do miracles- but what makes you think the devil cant do amazing things in order to lead you away from god and into the arms of evil? Considering jesus didnt fulfil the prophecies it would seem obvious he's nothing more than a false prophet tempting you to evil.

This is another good point. I to get confused about us being called sons and daughters of god. I suppose Jesus was part God genetically due to the nature of his birth. I know my father is called Brian and I don't think he's God

Because his mother was human he therefore could also be referred to as being the son of man. In my opinion we normal humans are son's & daughters of man.

What prophecies exactly did he not fulfil?

Why do you think he got crucified if he was as good as you say? Wouldn't it stand to reason the people at the time would know slightly more about the situation than you do? Do not forget you go solely on the word of a book written by those people.

He got crucified to overcome death and therefore to fulfil his promise of being resurrected to show his disciples that he had overcome death and that they have nothing to fear.

 

[davewhite04]

Originally posted by SnakeLord
jesus can't judge- he's not a god

Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

 

[TheVisitor]

Originally posted by SnakeLord
It remains evident god and jesus are completely separate entities.

=========

"It remains evident".........Please show us the scriptures you claim that support this.

The trinity doctrine is not supported by scripture as a whole, God only appears to be seperate entitites when isolated scriptures are taken out of context.

- God is the "Father" above us..........(A Spirit)
- Jesus is the "Son" "Emanuel".....which is "God with us", born of a woman, (The Spirit of God) manifested in human flesh.
- The Holy Spirit is that same Spirit that was in Jesus, poured out on mankind, to be manifested - IN - us.

The word trinity isn't even in the bible.
God is one God, manifest in three different "offices", or titles.....
Like you are a "son" of your father........a "father" of your son....., and a "Man" .
And yet you are one person.

So is God. He is a Person.
Jesus said...."I came in my Father's name and ye received me not"
God's name is The Lord (Father) Jesus (Son) Christ (Holy Spirit)

In Mathew Jesus said, "Baptize in the name of the Father, the name of the Son , and the name of the Holy Ghost....
He always spoke in parables.
Later after the day of pentecost had come and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, Peter who had been given the "Keys" to the kingdom by Jesus....stood up and by revelation of the Holy Spirit said what that Name was.
The Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:38)

 

[SnakeLord]

Cool, nice to make your aquaintance..

When God said you are to worship no other God, Jesus was but a twinkle in his eye, so he couldn't very well say oh and you may worship Jesus when Jesus hadn't even been born.

There can be drawn from this several fundamental flaws when working in context with religious, (mainly christian), belief.

Firstly we have the concept of god knowing the future. Many christians even go so far as to state jesus was present in the time of genesis, which wouldn't be possible if he wasn't even a twinkle in his fathers eye. There are ways around this- by future prophecy. god could say: "in the future i will have a son who you shall worship as a god also". At least like this we can find even more evidence to show god and jesus were two completely different entities- which is disagreed upon by many people here. Instead of all that god specifically said not to worship other gods and that he was the only god- indicating that any other god worshipped would have to be a false god, seeings as he's the ONLY god -attestified to even by jesus. Of course he could have said: "You are to worship me, and worship my son who i will place among you in the land of israel.." At least that would clear up the problems between his children, (the israelites), and the 'breed' that surfaced to worship his apparent 'son' first and foremost way after, (the christians).

For something so important, (as the son of god), why would god send an angel to deliver messages? In the olden days when handing out simple things like laws god did all the talking himself, personally. (ok he sent angels with regard to Sodom but he was angry at the time). He even went so far as to sit on a mountain with noah and write out commandments. With his son, he didn't even bother talking to the childs mother before birth. He sent an angel- a mere middle man. An angel can be extremely misleading-- look at lucifer... the only way to truly know he is to be worshipped as a god, on the same level as god, or even beyond god is for god to say so himself. jesus can say anything he wants to say, it's inconsequential. I could now say exactly the same thing. Im sure if i went round spouting the fact im god/on par with god people would hate me, ridicule me, and spit on me... Now i ask what the people did to jesus? he had his 12 believers- i guarantee you i could find 12 people to believe in me- yet the rest had him condemned. Many people gave him the benefit of the doubt because he healed them when they were sick.... sometimes the greatest act of evil would be to pray on the needy. f you help the needy they will be eternally devoted to you. The same in actuality can be said of god. However, especially in the early days, god was forever present. He was there leading the people in their masses. Now when people have these religious revelations it's not god they see, it's jesus. How can anyone so easily assume jesus isn't a messenger of evil- persuading the needy to go against god and his commands and follow a person who could do miracles.

god has this overwhelming need for perfection. He demands gold, blue and purple cloths, cows with perfect testicles- everything is perfect, and as many have argued with me, god demands perfection for he is perfect..... yet now we look at jesus- a commoner, a peasant in essence. If we look at the film IJ and the last crusade at the end they get to choose the cup of christ... the guy chooses a perfect golden cup and dies, indy chooses a shabby wooden cup and lives. However that in itself is against the very basics of god. God is perfection and demands it. You can see this many times within the bible- god demands gold and the highest quality of everything for he is god.

A poor worker of evil would be shabby, would be a peasant in essence- he is not interested in gold or perfection- just souls. God on the other hand is perfect and demands he be treated in such manner.

The difference between these two is astounding. jesus in no way resembles god or the perfection of god. Admittedly he was a good talker- but good talking and having perfection are not the same thing. Wouldn't it seem prevalent to say evil would be a good talker? He would have extreme powers of persuasion verbally but could not match the true perfection of god. He would sit and eat crumbs, he would sit in rags- much that that seems nice and moralistic it is completely opposite to the style of god. god doesn't need to be moralistic- he's god.

Regarding idols and such, again time had passed and these idols remind christians

yes, it reminds christians, who were born into existence after finding their new god. If jesus sat down and prayed to the 'ONLY true god' isn't that evidence enough to know jesus is not god and not to be worshipped as such? Yet people do it anyway- against the commands of god that he could well have explained back in the early days.

that Gods once mortal son died for our sins

Well i still disagree with this idea. jesus's death was nothing more than a magic trick. The question remains: is he dead? 3 days after dying he stood up, went and showed everyone then buggered off. What better way to get worship than by trickery?

God did amazing 'magic tricks' aswell. Remember how he saved the israelites from egypt? Yes, god saved the jews... who did jesus save? Yes, he saved himself. If he was sacrificing his life to save everyone he would have stayed dead. that's a sacrifice for others lives. Instead he made sure to come alive afterwards, (he knew this beforehand)- and thus defeating the whole objective of sacrifice.

Man is easily pleased and drawn to miracle. How many people rush outside when there's an eclipse? How many people have heard of aurora borealis and other such strange and miraculous events? How many people flock together to see weeping statues, bleeding walls and whatever else you can think of? It is a part of being human to be fascinated by miracle- jesus gave people what they wanted, then made sure to leave for his job had been completed.

remember these statues and crucifixes remind christians of the mortal Jesus, not another God

A mortal jesus who is worshipped as a god.

Snake.

 

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by davewhite04
Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority
in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

"Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." -John 12:44-47 (KJV)

 

[SnakeLord]

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

What else would he say if he was a fraud? "I'm a fraud, ignore me"?

"It remains evident".........Please show us the scriptures you claim that support this.

I will leave an entire post doing so shortly. watch this space.

God only appears to be seperate entitites when isolated scriptures are taken out of context.

I love how things so easily turn into 'isolated scripture' when it suits you. If we want to continue with this saying we must now question the rest of the bible. Isn't everything 'isolated scripture'? Up until numbers god only says he's a loving god once. That's as isolated as it gets- does it now mean god isnt loving? As for context- isn't it all about personal interpretation? You can disagree with what i say but you can't say your interpretation is any more 'in context' than mine is. You could say you have a better understanding but then so can everyone else. You are not the authority on biblical scriptures meaning, none of us are. However on the post to come i will hopefully show how even jesus says he's not god and show a distinction between the two. Ok, you never have to agree- but it's good for debate.

- God is the "Father" above us..........(A Spirit)
- Jesus is the "Son" "Emanuel".....which is "God with us", born of a woman, (The Spirit of God) manifested in human flesh.
- The Holy Spirit is that same Spirit that was in Jesus, poured out on mankind, to be manifested - IN - us.

Where does this come from? Would these be 'isolated scripture'?

Like you are a "son" of your father........a "father" of your son....., and a "Man" .
And yet you are one person.

I'd regard that as 'out of context'. I am the father of my son and son of my father but...if we put it in context:

I am NOT son of myself of father of myself.

However i suppose running off with jesus isn't even slightly as blasphemous as running off with branham. It's one false prophet after another.

Jesus said...."I came in my Father's name and ye received me not"

Is this what you'd call 'isolating scripture' and taking it 'out of context'?

 

[EvilPoet]

Originally posted by davewhite04
Regarding idols and such, again time had passed and
these idols remind christians that Gods once mortal son
died for our sins, remember these statues and crucifixes
remind christians of the mortal Jesus, not another God.

I'm a bit confused - are you saying this doesn't apply anymore?

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make
unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is
in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the
water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them,
nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting
the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation of them that hate me;..."-Exodus 20:3-5