jesus christ is god

[AntonK]

I think my main problem with what you're saying is that you're saying they have no will. It is there will to follow that book to the letter. They believe and base their lives on a book because they believe it leads them to the Truth. You base your life and beliefs (I appologize for making assumptions here...if im wrong I only meant to illustrate a point about people) on the world and your observations of it. WHATIF... (and i know im stretching here) the story of The Matrix were true...you base your life and beliefs on a giant lie fed to you. Either way...you're basing your beliefs and life on something else...it doesnt mean you have no will of your own...its a choice to believe what you believe...theirs is simply a book.

-AntonK

 

[Red Devil]

I understand what you mean AntonK and it IS only a book.........

 

[SnakeLord]

True God does not keep a record of wrongs, however God "does not delight in evil"... God hates sin, however he is a forgiving God, no matter how many times you sin, the point is we are all sinners.

Forgiving god no matter how many times we sin? hmmmm

"...Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

He says this more than once. How can that be classed as forgiving? The kids aint even born yet and he's saying he'll punish them for the sins of their great great grandfathers. Fuck that i didnt even know my great great grandfather- what if he was a bad sinner? That would mean i get punished for the shit he did?

god is jealous and acts many times upon jealousy and anger. He kills on sight and destroys whatever he feels like. There is no sign of forgiveness just of destruction and death.

Exodus 30:12 When you take a census of the Israelites to count them, each one must pay the lord a ransom for his life at the time he is counted. Then no plague will come on them when you number them.

Pay the lord a ransom eh? Wouldn't that suggest they were hostages?

I could go on about how god makes moses go and stone people, how jesus says to gouge your eye out if you've even looked at a woman lustfully or you burn in hell and so on and so forth, but im sure you can read the bible for yourself.

Each and every man does bad things. Many take 'sinning' to a worthless level such as playing evil computer games and stuff but the normal individual will still do things in his life that are morally wrong. His conscience will most likely give him grief for his actions, the same as with people thousands of years ago. The part where you get forgiveness is not as easy as bowing down to jesus, it's by working out the problem within yourself. It must be nice knowing you can have a good nights sleep because all your morally wrong choices in life are instantly forgiven but frankly i find it a cop-out.

however as mentioned earlier as a sinner, man cannot enter heaven, he needs that ticket, being Jesus Christ.

As a sinner man cannot enter heaven? I thought god kept no record of wrongs? And he only forgives if you worship his son? Fair enough.

What I meant here is, because (I believe) Jesus Christ is God, coming down to earth in the form of a human being would be degradation.

Degradation of what?

No, the romans (Pilate being their Governor) did not find fault in him.

That didn't stop anything though did it? "Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released barabbas to them. He had jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified"

Whether he found fault with him when he spoke to him or not is irrelevant. He still had him flogged and killed. The romans were easily pleased i guess. Of course jesus had no reason to intervene. Being god he'd know he would be alive a short while afterwards, and couldnt in fact die no matter how many times it was tried.

In this case God the Father raised him (God the Son: Jesus Christ) from the dead. God is God the Father, Jesus the son of God also called the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit or Counselor. These three are one.

lol ok.

"..she was found to be with child through the holy spirit" (matthew 1:18)

So god impregnated her with himself...

"And a voice from heaven said, "This is my son, whom i love; with him i am well pleased." (matthew 3:16-17)

So god came down and looked at himself, said he loved himself and was well pleased with himself? Or.... is he talking about a completely separate being?

"Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.."

So god led himself with his other self to be tempted by the devil? Man the guy must have been having a right laugh at this time. Can god be tempted by the devil? he was testing himself just to make sure he was capable of withstanding the devils ability or what?

And so on and so forth... Show me why you think god/jesus/holy spirit are all the same being..

This is a discussion with a medical professional who analyzed Jesus death.

How did he 'analyze' jesus' death? Was he there?

 

[firingseeds]

red devil

wait up, wait up....

the good things in live are for retention; the bad things not.
cheers

"and his delights were with the sons of men"

 

[firingseeds]

praise god for ((((((( aardappelvreter )))))))

 

[firingseeds]

free cycle

we do obtain information from other sources. the worlds information is freely available; and its resources. we know basically everything u do about it. we were born into it, remember. god can be proved by spirit or by reason, whatever u prefer.
i am a simple soul. if i have one dollar, spend 50 cents, i get 50 cents change. same as with the bible. as u grow in it, it all adds up, right down the the last dot. when i was a child it took awhile for me to add cents correctly, and so it is with the bible.
why will u be brighter tomorrow?

 

[firingseeds]

more about god

not for the faint-hearted:

romans 9:20 thru 23
nay but, o man, who art thou that repliest against god? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?
hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
what if god, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory.

 

[DefSkeptic]

firing seeds-

am a simple soul. if i have one dollar, spend 50 cents, i get 50 cents change

I'll give you this......you're a great mathematician

 

[firingseeds]

snakelord

so far, snake, jesus has sacrificed over 2000* years of his life...for he is the son of man. he also gave up his ghost when he died...which is what his church share in today - the holy spirit.
all on faith in god, too, by the way.

*approximation

lack of education is the main source of doubt. we now have a clear understanding of the holy spirit.

 

[firingseeds]

duh

yeah, thanks scep'.

 

[firingseeds]

poet

the story of the dogs.
the master had a pack of dogs. some were good dogs, some were bad. the good ones were loving and obedient, and served their master well. the bad dogs fought amongst themselves, attacked the good ones and even snapped at the master; and generally, couldn't be trusted. the master already knows that the nature of the dog is unchangeable, and an untrustworthy dog is worthless. now this can go on forever, even indefinitely. what can the master do? should he perseverve with compassion? should he beat the bad dogs into submission? (what worth would they be then?) should he let them just run riot forever? should he separate them? and after separation, what then?
the pillar of salt story teaches us something of great importance.
that when u walk away from sodom u do not look back.
hence why jesus is always saying, forgive, forgive, forgive. because when u finally turn away there is no going back.

 

[aardappelvreter]

- Free Cycle -

aardappelvreter, do you understand the importance of getting information from more than one source? Information from one angle does not include everything, and God isn't some exception. You have proof that the bible is true because god said so. Then truth that god exists because the bible says so. In examining historical documents you may find that to understand the entire situation more than one opinion is necessary.

This is true, and i try to stay updated on the latest things, altough i don't know everything, but like i said it is a belief, and this is based on the Bible and what has happened in my life personally. I've read the "Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel where there is evidence from other sources about Jesus. This is also not the only book, but Free Cycle it remains a belief, and until now i have not found enough evidence to refute this belief

 

[aardappelvreter]

- Free Cycle -

IN the first chapters of the book of Mark the bible shows God blessing jesus from above. If they are the same then did Jesus know it was going to happen? is he blessing himself?

I believe Jesus knew it was going to happen yes, however he was still a human, and could not bless himself.


What about when jesus says "god why have you forsaken me?" Is he getting angry at himself?


No, when he died on the cross he took on the sins of the world, b ecause God cannot stand sin the relationship was not as it used to be, God was far away, just as God is far away for a sinner who has not accepted Jesus in their life.



IF the wages of sin are death, then if adam had never sinned wouldn't the world be horribly overpopulated? Or is the concept of limited resources a byproduct of the fall?

I don't know if the world would be overpopulated, however i believe their is room in heaven for anyone, for Jesus says in my Father' s house their are many rooms.


And what about Job living hundreds of years to see his many offspring? Can god wipe out a family then bring them back to life from their graves with memory of the experience?

God can do anything. I will read that passage and see what it says (i don't know everything)

 

[aardappelvreter]

- Red Devil -


Which proves my point - bible punchers do NOT have a will of their own..............


We have a will of our own just as everyone does, I can choose to sin or not, but because i have accepted Jesus as my personal Savior he gives me strength to overcome it. This does not mean i do not sin, it just means that through Jesus Christ i can overcome it.

 

[aardappelvreter]

- SnakeLord -


Forgiving god no matter how many times we sin? hmmmm

"...Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

Yes, this remains true, this world is getting worse and worse. However when you accept Jesus Christ in your heart, you become a child of God, and sin no longer has its power.


He says this more than once. How can that be classed as forgiving? The kids aint even born yet and he's saying he'll punish them for the sins of their great great grandfathers. Fuck that i didnt even know my great great grandfather- what if he was a bad sinner? That would mean i get punished for the shit he did?

Yes this could be true. You're heart is hardened against the Gospel.


god is jealous and acts many times upon jealousy and anger. He kills on sight and destroys whatever he feels like. There is no sign of forgiveness just of destruction and death.


Well, I must argue their is very much sign of forgiveness, the whole new testament is full of sinners who have been forgiven.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[1] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." (John 3:16)


Each and every man does bad things. Many take 'sinning' to a worthless level such as playing evil computer games and stuff but the normal individual will still do things in his life that are morally wrong. His conscience will most likely give him grief for his actions, the same as with people thousands of years ago. The part where you get forgiveness is not as easy as bowing down to jesus, it's by working out the problem within yourself. It must be nice knowing you can have a good nights sleep because all your morally wrong choices in life are instantly forgiven but frankly i find it a cop-out.

You CAN get that forgiveness, I have received it, my worries were gone, my sin was gone, I became a new person, and I urge you to ask forgiveness before it is too late.


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however as mentioned earlier as a sinner, man cannot enter heaven, he needs that ticket, being Jesus Christ.
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As a sinner man cannot enter heaven? I thought god kept no record of wrongs? And he only forgives if you worship his son? Fair enough.


Yes, this is true.


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What I meant here is, because (I believe) Jesus Christ is God, coming down to earth in the form of a human being would be degradation.
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Degradation of what?


We obviously do not agree on what "sacrifice" is, I believe him dying on the cross while he was perfect is sacrifice, and him coming down to earth being GOD would be a degradation, i think going on about this would be beating a dead horse.





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In this case God the Father raised him (God the Son: Jesus Christ) from the dead. God is God the Father, Jesus the son of God also called the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit or Counselor. These three are one.
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lol ok.

"..she was found to be with child through the holy spirit" (matthew 1:18)

So god impregnated her with himself...

"And a voice from heaven said, "This is my son, whom i love; with him i am well pleased." (matthew 3:16-17)

So god came down and looked at himself, said he loved himself and was well pleased with himself? Or.... is he talking about a completely separate being?

"Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.."

So god led himself with his other self to be tempted by the devil? Man the guy must have been having a right laugh at this time. Can god be tempted by the devil? he was testing himself just to make sure he was capable of withstanding the devils ability or what? \


Jesus was as human as you and me, the only difference was he was perfect, Understanding the Holy Trinity might be difficult, but this is a minor detail of the truth.

You have sin in your life
You cannot enter heaven with sin
You need God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ
Confess your sin and
Accept him as your personal Savior


quote:
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This is a discussion with a medical professional who analyzed Jesus death.
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How did he 'analyze' jesus' death? Was he there?

No he was not there, this was to explain to you the whole water and blood thing.

 

[SnakeLord]

so far, snake, jesus has sacrificed over 2000* years of his life.

So.... jesus is dead? The typical response is god came down, (as jesus), to get himself killed for our sins. If jesus is god and god is jesus then if he's still alive he cant be dead. Not to mention nowhere does it say he's dead. It says he got killed and three days later was up and walking around again saying "im not dead." To me that would signify someone being alive, not dead. Too complicated? Ok, heres the simple version:

man A supposedly dies.
three days later man A stands up and says "im not dead"
it would be safe to say man A is not dead.
If man A is not dead how did he sacrifice his life?

he also gave up his ghost when he died...which is what his church share in today - the holy spirit.

As a loving christian save me the burden and show me relevant passage please.

all on faith in god, too, by the way.

He's god or he isn't god... i wish people would settle the issue. Not to mention he's not apparently dead seeings as he stood up three days after and said "im not dead".

lack of education is the main source of doubt.

Forced education reults in one-sided bias opinion. When those opinions are based on pure assumption it's hardly education.

we now have a clear understanding of the holy spirit.

Who's 'we'? Did those 'we' tell you they have a clear understanding or did you tell them?

the master had a pack of dogs.

Start again please..

The master MADE a pack of dogs. some were good dogs, some were bad. The master had ultimate power, for he was master god. For some bizarre and inexplicable reason he couldn't work out why some dogs were good and some were bad. The good ones were slaves with no minds of their own. Master said "Jump", they jumped, master said "Fetch" they fetched, master said "Drop dead" they dropped dead. The bad dogs wondered why they'd been forced to eat crap for forty years while the master took all their food for himself merely because it smelled nice. The dogs barked saying "Hey man any chance we could have some please?" So the master drowned them all, blew them up, closed the womens wombs, destroyed their homes, gave them a plague and so on because he felt like it.

the master already knows that the nature of the dog is unchangeable, and an untrustworthy dog is worthless.

The master knows that the nature of the dog is easily changeable because he's all powerful and can do whatever he wants. However where is the fun in having all good dogs? It gives the master nothing to drown, burn, plague, destroy etc.

what can the master do?

The master can do anything he wants to do. Imagine the master being in a position where he couldn't do anything to change the situation in a peaceful manner. what kind of a master would he be? No longer a parent or a master- just a slave driver..

should he perseverve with compassion?

Depends if he loved them or not. A father always knows his kids will misbehave- he does not shove a lightning bolt up their ass just to show them they shouldn't. Of course there's nothing harmful about a lightning bolt- imagine something worse..... like burning for the rest of eternity. The master wouldn't even dream of doing such a thing.

should he beat the bad dogs into submission? (what worth would they be then?)

No need for beating.... the master can just drown, destroy, plague, close wombs, disease and consume via earthquake. (What worth would they be then?)

should he let them just run riot forever? should he separate them? and after separation, what then?

Maybe the master should state his case instead of leaving his dogs to read a badly translated, chinese whispered guide book written by 2000 year old shepherds.

the pillar of salt story teaches us something of great importance.
that when u walk away from sodom u do not look back.

That's a great help, thanks.

hence why jesus is always saying, forgive, forgive, forgive. because when u finally turn away there is no going back.

ummmm but you said he was dead? As such surely he's not saying anything?

 

[SnakeLord]

Yes, this remains true, this world is getting worse and worse. However when you accept Jesus Christ in your heart, you become a child of God, and sin no longer has its power.

Well that's convenient. However, if your great great grandfather didn't accept jesus and sinned, you would be punished for it.

Yes this could be true. You're heart is hardened against the Gospel.

Why would my heart be hardened against the gospel? Because my great great granddaddy sinned?

Well, I must argue their is very much sign of forgiveness, the whole new testament is full of sinners who have been forgiven.

What about the OT? Did god change his attitude between the OT and the NT? Certainly looks that way...

However give me some quotes 'directly from god' pertaining to forgiveness and forgiving.. When i mean directly from god i mean like this:

The Lord God said, "I am a..."

Here's a couple of examples:

So the lord said, "I will wipe mankind..." <---- Pleasant chap.

But god came to Abimelech in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead.." <------ Very nice.

Then the lord said:, "Shall i hide from abraham what i am about to do?" <----- Feeling guilty?

Then god said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains i will tell you about." <---- a 'burnt offering'?? ewwww

"Do not worship any other god, for the lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous god." <---- Jealous, with a capital J.

You CAN get that forgiveness, I have received it, my worries were gone

Wow, easy as that. Where do i sign up?

and I urge you to ask forgiveness before it is too late.

I urge you not to involve me with your fantasy else i come over there and do some real sinning. Honestly it's like me saying: "I urge you to pray to the alien lord adkbfweb before it's too late and he sucks your eyeballs out with a metal straw". Why would i say that to you? Just because i believe it gives me no right to inflict it upon you.

Yes, this is true.

So..... it's "worship jesus or go f*** yourself"? Can you show me where it says this?

I believe him dying on the cross while he was perfect is sacrifice

Is he dead? Answer the question. Is he any less perfect now?

Jesus was as human as you and me, the only difference was he was perfect,

He was perfect? Did you ever meet him back then? It's bizarre but i wonder how you draw your conclusions. There's like 1 small page between jesus being born and his able to preach. I wonder how much of the story of his life is left out. There's tiny, miniscule details of what jesus apparently did- you think you can just fill in the gaps with anything you want?

However you failed to answer my questions. You claimed god/jesus/holy spirit were one and the same. I asked for an explanation using text that showed they were separate. You failed to answer.

You have sin in your life
You cannot enter heaven with sin
You need God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ
Confess your sin and
Accept him as your personal Savior

So all jews etc are going to hell? Thank fuck you turned out christian heh?

No he was not there, this was to explain to you the whole water and blood thing.

Explain what? Apparently jesus got stabbed with a spear and water leaked out with blood. You then said this is to show "Jesus died with a broken heart". this medical person analyses one line and says: "he got stabbed in the right lung yada yada yada". It's baseless assumption- pretty much the same as me saying he got stabbed in the bladder and leaked piss all over his shoes. Nobody has even proven he existed at all now all of a sudden some medical examiner has done an autopsy? Yeesh, i musta missed it.

 

[firingseeds]

snake

lord,
i think i have been bettered this day. i'll be back!

in answer to a scripture u asked for:

akjv john 16:7. nevertheless i tell u the truth; it is expedient for u that i go away: for if i go not away, the comforter will not come unto u; but if i depart, i will send him unto u.

draw your own conclusions.

i will reply further to this at a later date. mark my words! i will present a formidable case, but we will be entering uncharted territory.

shalom brother snake...hahahaha

 

[Red Devil]

Re: snakelord

Originally posted by firingseeds
so far, snake, jesus has sacrificed over 2000* years of his life

Apart from the obvious, unkind reply of "sucker" I can only add "allegedly" to your sentence above. But whatever, if your happy with this stay with it, but I do not like people who try to "force it down my throat" so to speak.

 

[aardappelvreter]

- Snake Lord -



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Yes this could be true. You're heart is hardened against the Gospel.
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Why would my heart be hardened against the gospel? Because my great great granddaddy sinned?


Look at all your posts to me, I think your heart is maybe just a little bit hardened against the gospel.


quote:
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Well, I must argue their is very much sign of forgiveness, the whole new testament is full of sinners who have been forgiven.
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What about the OT? Did god change his attitude between the OT and the NT? Certainly looks that way...


No, there is a new covenant through Jesus Christ for all people both Jews and Gentile. God didn't change. In the old testament, God made a covenant through Abraham for the Jews, and God saved people then too.

"my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge,
my shield and the horn of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-
from violent men you save me." (2 Samuël 22:3)

"But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation."(Psalm 13:5)

"The LORD is my light and my salvation-
whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life-
of whom shall I be afraid?" (Psalm 27:1)


However give me some quotes 'directly from god' pertaining to forgiveness and forgiving..


"Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, 'Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.' " (Matthew 9:2)

"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. " (Matthew 26:28)


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You CAN get that forgiveness, I have received it, my worries were gone
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow, easy as that. Where do i sign up?


You do not sign up, God loves you and wants a personal relationship with you, however because you have sin in your life you cannot have this. God however has provided a solution for this, he sent Jesus Christ to die for the sin of all mankind. Your sins included, Jesus died for your sins on that cross. What you have to do is confess your sin, repent of them and ask for forgiveness, accept Jesus as your personal Savior, and give your life to Jesus.

a. Confess your sins
b. Repent of these sins and ask forgiveness
c. Accept Jesus Christ as your Personal Savior
d. Give your life to Jesus

Actually met a guy today, he gave his life to Christ (praise God), his sin is gone, he is saved, he is no longe yoked to sin.


quote:
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and I urge you to ask forgiveness before it is too late.
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I urge you not to involve me with your fantasy else i come over there and do some real sinning. Honestly it's like me saying: "I urge you to pray to the alien lord adkbfweb before it's too late and he sucks your eyeballs out with a metal straw". Why would i say that to you? Just because i believe it gives me no right to inflict it upon you.



No, it is not the same, (i believe the following by the way so don't post anything with where i got this from, check the bible ) God created the world, He created you and loves you, he has a plan for your life, all you need to do accept him, this is different from an alien that doesn't exist.


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Yes, this is true.
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So..... it's "worship jesus or go f*** yourself"? Can you show me where it says this?


No, it is accept Jesus, or suffer eternal separation from God.


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I believe him dying on the cross while he was perfect is sacrifice
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Is he dead? Answer the question. Is he any less perfect now?


No, of course he is not dead, he was raised on the third day, and no less perfect.


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Jesus was as human as you and me, the only difference was he was perfect,
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He was perfect? Did you ever meet him back then? It's bizarre but i wonder how you draw your conclusions. There's like 1 small page between jesus being born and his able to preach. I wonder how much of the story of his life is left out. There's tiny, miniscule details of what jesus apparently did- you think you can just fill in the gaps with anything you want?


No, I didn't meet him back then, but I have met him, and know him personally. For

"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- " (John 1:12)

No I cannot tell you what happened between his birth and his ministry other than what is already stated in the Bible, however Jesus was perfect and without sin.

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)



However you failed to answer my questions. You claimed god/jesus/holy spirit were one and the same. I asked for an explanation using text that showed they were separate. You failed to answer.


God the father : plans redemption Jesus Christ : procures it

"For he CHOSE us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Ephesians 1:4-6)

Spirit : applies it
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth." (2 Thessalonians 2:13)


quote:
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You have sin in your life
You cannot enter heaven with sin
You need God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ
Confess your sin and
Accept him as your personal Savior
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So all jews etc are going to hell? Thank fuck you turned out christian heh?


Anyone, who does not accept Jesus is God will suffer eternal separation from God.


quote:
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No he was not there, this was to explain to you the whole water and blood thing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explain what? Apparently jesus got stabbed with a spear and water leaked out with blood. You then said this is to show "Jesus died with a broken heart". this medical person analyses one line and says: "he got stabbed in the right lung yada yada yada". It's baseless assumption- pretty much the same as me saying he got stabbed in the bladder and leaked piss all over his shoes. Nobody has even proven he existed at all now all of a sudden some medical examiner has done an autopsy? Yeesh, i musta missed it.


You quoted this from the site i gave.

quote:
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When
the soldier thrust a spear into Jesus' side, blood and water came
out indicating Jesus died with a broken heart.
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Then you commented this

Actually that more than likely indicates the spear penetrated his bladder and he leaked piss all over his shoes.

And i replied with the whole water and blood thing from a scientific point of view. Where the medical examiner was coming from was IF it did indeed happen how John said it did THEN this is the explanation, to show you that your comment was untrue.