I've never met a Christian

billvon said:
Uh, I hate to break this to you, but . . . pagans aren't atheists. (But you should still celebrate Christmas however you like.)
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Agree

Can I be a pagan atheists please?

Christmas is a time to be thankful and every Christmas I give thanks to god I am a atheists

:)

ps

I notice you did not make a correction about the thieving christians

:) :)
 
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DaveC426913 said:
It seems kind silly to declare that, to be a Christian, one must be actively devoted to every aspect of it 100%, and that any less causes one to fail to be Christian.
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But why do Christians call themselves Christians if they completely ignore everything that Jesus said ?
The Head of the Church of England and the Head of the Catholic Church live in Palaces.
Jesus didn't.

He said that we must give up riches in this life in order to have riches in the next.
The first shall be last and the last shall be first.
It's in the book !
 
exchemist said:
Indeed. That would be one reason why most Christians believe no such thing. I quote a passage from the Wiki entry on biblical inerrancy:-

"During the 18th and 19th centuries, various episodes of the Bible (for example the Noahide worldwide flood,[21] the creation in six days, and the creation of women from a man's rib) began increasingly to be seen as legendary rather than as literally true. This led to further questioning of the veracity of biblical texts. According to an article in Theology Today published in 1975, "There have been long periods in the history of the church when biblical inerrancy has not been a critical question. It has in fact been noted that only in the last two centuries can we legitimately speak of a formal doctrine of inerrancy. The arguments pro and con have filled many books, and almost anyone can join in the debate".[22]

Again, from the same article:-

"The Catholic Church's view was authoritatively expressed by the Second Vatican Council, citing earlier declarations, in the following terms: "Since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation".[11] The Council added: "Since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words."[17]

The doctrine of biblical inerrancy, in the way you portray it, seems to have been a recent development, mainly in the USA, among certain Protestant groups. It is very far from universal.
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I do not know much about Christians outside the USA. I do know about Christians in the USA.

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Ted Grant II said:
But why do Christians call themselves Christians if they completely ignore everything that Jesus said ?
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You should ask them, instead of presuming what they think.

It's easy to judge someone if your preconceptions to speak for them instead of allowing them to speak for themselves.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Ah, the old Theist Strawman... Very popular guy. He's usually the only guy to show up to a debate.


It is folly to build up a contrived, hypothetical "perfect" simalcrum of any belief, and then attack that as if it represents every one of its followers.

It is also folly to pretend that theism - of all human endeavors - has a 0.000 tolerance standard. You are 100.000% perfect at it, or you are a fraud.



Do you hold the same standard for atheists I wonder?

If you'd met me, you would say I was not an atheist, because once, when I was startled, and I blurted out "Oh My God!". I also celebrate Christmas.

This clearly means I am a fraud.

Atheist Straw Man is a perfect 100% in his absolute dismissal of all things spiritual.
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I am not building anything. I am talking about what I personally experience, what I read & hear, see on TV & find on the internet. If you research it without your bias, you should find the same. There are many debates between theists & atheists on these things. I have debated theists about this. Theists write books making these claims.

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exchemist said:
Indeed. That would be one reason why most Christians believe no such thing. I quote a passage from the Wiki entry on biblical inerrancy:-

"During the 18th and 19th centuries, various episodes of the Bible (for example the Noahide worldwide flood,[21] the creation in six days, and the creation of women from a man's rib) began increasingly to be seen as legendary rather than as literally true. This led to further questioning of the veracity of biblical texts. According to an article in Theology Today published in 1975, "There have been long periods in the history of the church when biblical inerrancy has not been a critical question. It has in fact been noted that only in the last two centuries can we legitimately speak of a formal doctrine of inerrancy. The arguments pro and con have filled many books, and almost anyone can join in the debate".[22]

Again, from the same article:-

"The Catholic Church's view was authoritatively expressed by the Second Vatican Council, citing earlier declarations, in the following terms: "Since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation".[11] The Council added: "Since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words."[17]

The doctrine of biblical inerrancy, in the way you portray it, seems to have been a recent development, mainly in the USA, among certain Protestant groups. It is very far from universal.
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It's been a while since I read that Wiki entry so I reread it. It mostly supports what I said.

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StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
I do not know much about Christians outside the USA. I do know about Christians in the USA.

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That's rather what I thought. And I suspect the Christians you hear about in the US will mostly be the highly vocal ones, who will be the most unreasonable. All part of the horrible "culture wars" you have over there, which seem to push people into taking sides and adopting extreme positions. I was appalled, when I lived in Houston TX for a bit, at how shrill and unpleasant the soi-disant committed Christians seemed to be.
 
Ted Grant II said:
But why do Christians call themselves Christians if they completely ignore everything that Jesus said ?
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I don't know any Christians who "completely ignore everything that Jesus said." I also know very few Christians (a few, but not many) who believe _everything_ Jesus said.

The US Constitution supports slavery and says you have to return slaves back to where they came from. However, people can ignore that part and still support the US Constitution.
 
exchemist said:
That's rather what I thought. And I suspect the Christians you hear about in the US will mostly be the highly vocal ones, who will be the most unreasonable. All part of the horrible "culture wars" you have over there, which seem to push people into taking sides and adopting extreme positions. I was appalled, when I lived in Houston TX for a bit, at how shrill and unpleasant the soi-disant committed Christians seemed to be.
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I should say I do not assume US Christians reflect Christians everywhere. I should have phrased that better. Even so, the book says its entirely true & either one believes it or does not.

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StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
Even so, the book says its entirely true
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It does? Where? On the inside of the dust jacket?
What does it say? "The contents of this book are true.*
*including this statement**
**and this one***
and this one"


StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
& either one believes it or does not.
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One does? So a Christian, who follows Christ, must believe the Bible - in its entirety - or they are utterly disqualified. That's your belief?
 
DaveC426913 said:
It does? Where? On the inside of the dust jacket?
What does it say? "The contents of this book are true.*
*including this statement**
**and this one***
and this one"



One does? So a Christian, who follows Christ, must believe the Bible - in its entirety - or they are utterly disqualified. That's your belief?
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"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness"[2 Tim 3:16]).

Jesus said that every minute detail of the Old Testament Law must be fulfilled,[Mt 5:18] indicating that every detail must be correct.[42]

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. — [Mt. 5:18 (KJV)].

Romans 3:2
For in the first place the Jews[a] were entrusted with the oracles of God.

In 1 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul wrote to the church in Thessalonica"when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God."

Matthew 4:4 - But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

At a conference sponsored by the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy (ICBI) and held in Chicago in October 1978, more than 200 evangelical leaders formulated the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy.
Rogers, Jay Frank Schaeffer Will You Please Shut Up!, p. PA82, at Google Books "[...] the Roman Catholic Church's Second Vatican Council ratified a similar document in 1965 called Dei Verbum (The Word of God) in which the problems inherent in the approach of the historical critical method are addressed and the principle of inerrancy is affirmed.". - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Statement_on_Biblical_Inerrancy

The "doctrine of the inerrancy of scripture"[10] held by the Catholic Church, as expressed by the Second Vatican Council, is that "the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation."- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

I can believe some of a history book or science book or autobiography without believing it all. You can believe some of a book I wrote without believing it all. I can believe some of the bible without believing all because I do not believe it is the word of an omnipotent god.
If someone believes some of what they believe is the word of god, how do they decide which to believe. I have never heard of any claim that god tells them which parts to believe. That would be too absurd even for theists.
I do not expect any human to be perfect in anything but there is far too much they do not follow while claiming to follow it. The ones who do go further than others are called fanatic extremists.
I wish I had a dollar for every time this happened to me : "Do you believe the Bible?".
Me - "I think some of it is true.". "OH NO! You can't believe part of the Bible!! You either believe it or you don't!!!".

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billvon said:
Do you believe in the US Constitution?
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I believe it is what we in the US should follow until the citizens vote to change that. Some of the original was changed by amendment & now those amendments are the constitution rather than the original parts they changed. I believe more of it should be changed.
I do not believe the original or our current version are perfect or were written by infallible beings.

I believe the original should have criminalized slavery, should have made the separation of church & state more clear, should have made it clear that freedoms come with responsibilities & should have clearly stated that adults have the right to do whatever they want if it does not harm others.

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StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
I believe it is what we in the US should follow until the citizens vote to change that. Some of the original was changed by amendment & now those amendments are the constitution rather than the original parts they changed. I believe more of it should be changed.
I do not believe the original or our current version are perfect or were written by infallible beings.

I believe the original should have criminalized slavery, should have made the separation of church & state more clear, should have made it clear that freedoms come with responsibilities & should have clearly stated that adults have the right to do whatever they want if it does not harm others.

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And should have given women the right to vote.

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StrangerInAStrangeLa said:
I believe it is what we in the US should follow until the citizens vote to change that. Some of the original was changed by amendment & now those amendments are the constitution rather than the original parts they changed. I believe more of it should be changed.
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Fair enough. Many people feel the same way about the Bible - we should try to follow it, but the original is somewhat flawed.
 
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