Israeli/Hamas disregard for human life.

[GeoffP]

Which is why you'll eventually lose it all. Tribalism just does not work in the modern world. Try it, if you like, but its already falling apart.

Yet you seem to think nothing of your own tribalism.

Sam...there is no honest debating with you. There simply isn't.

 

[S.A.M.]

That's too bad, because i would hate to die.

We fight to survive, nothing more, and we wont suffer any less. We dont care about taking Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, etc. We just want to live our lives
In the one place we call home.

We just want to survive
We want to get what has fairly been ours, we want to get what every person in the world deserves, security, we want to love, we want to live, we want to advance. We just want to survive, nothing more, nothing less.

nothing more nothing less, thats all we are,

If that doesnt mean anything to you, than i guess i just wasted the last 30 minutes of my life.

No, you just described a Palestinian.

 

[GeoffP]

Since you speak from the position of ignorance, I need only remind you that its not in the Middle East that natives live on reservations.

They live in open reservations of the mind, of rights, of tolerance. Which is worse, in many ways.

You go "fight" that tribalism.

 

[fedr808]

Which is why you'll eventually lose it all. Tribalism just does not work in the modern world. Try it, if you like, but its already falling apart.

If it keeps us together another week, it doesnt change anything, i would still die. If it bought us another second, i would die for that second, i would fight for every inch of land, every life of a Jew. Becaus ein the end I know, that i did my best, i tried my hardest, if that cant stop the inevitable, what can?

 

[S.A.M.]

They live in open reservations of the mind, of rights, of tolerance. Which is worse, in many ways.

You go "fight" that tribalism.

Since you've never even extended yourself beyond your colonial shores, you're in position to offer your ridiculous opinion.

 

[fedr808]

No, you just described a Palestinian.

than i guess theres more similar between su than we thought

 

[GeoffP]

Since you've never even extended yourself beyond your colonial shores, you're in position to offer your ridiculous opinion.

:yawn: Mindless ad homeinem. "You have a bad history! So you cannot talk!" One wonders what to make of your right to post then.

 

[GeoffP]

Recognising that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Why don't Jews move out from their tribal mindset?

Why don't islamic societies do the same? It hasn't worked for 1400 years of pogrom and repression.

By the by: Jews weren't able to consider the place they lived as home because of the other people that lived there, who treated them like dirt. But I'm sure you don't care about that.

 

[S.A.M.]

If it keeps us together another week, it doesnt change anything, i would still die. If it bought us another second, i would die for that second, i would fight for every inch of land, every life of a Jew. Becaus ein the end I know, that i did my best, i tried my hardest, if that cant stop the inevitable, what can?

Recognising that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Why don't Jews move out from their tribal mindset? It hasn't worked for 4000 years of spitting on crucifixes, for 4000 years of forming exclusive communities around synagogues, for 4000 years of not considering the place where you live as home.

Maybe its time to embrace a more universal mindset. More inclusive, less exclusive.

than i guess theres more similar between su than we thought

Yes, after all, they are more Jewish than the Jews. Many of their customs are closer to the original Jews than those of Israelis. They are the Jews who did not leave Israel. They are the Jews you should learn from, because they lived in the same place for 4000 years and did not get subject to pogroms. Like the ones in India, they did something right all those years. And I'm not talking about religion here. They are probably more kosher than most Israelis anyway.

 

[GeoffP]

Yes, after all, they are more Jewish than the Jews. Many of their customs are closer to the original Jews than those of Israelis. They are the Jews who did not leave Israel. They are the Jews you should learn from, because they lived in the same place for 4000 years and did not get subject to pogroms. Like the ones in India, they did something right all those years.

Avoided offending their overlords? No, no...can't be that. Jews in the ME had pogroms against them, too. And how do you know that the Jews in the ME are more culturally similar to ancestral Judaism, and not to the overwhelming ARab influences around them? How do you measure this?

 

[S.A.M.]

Avoided offending their overlords? No, no...can't be that. Jews in the ME had pogroms against them, too.

Really? For what reason? Seeing as there is no cultural or religious divide between Jews and Muslims there? What were these "pogroms" in favour of?

And how do you know that the Jews in the ME are more culturally similar to ancestral Judaism, and not to the overwhelming ARab influences around them? How do you measure this?

Read again, not the Jews in ME. The Palestinians. Compared to the falashi or ashkenazi, the Palestinians are more Jewish in their customs.

Some educated Jews have even suggested a gedankenspiel based on this

Of all the possibilities, the one action that Israelis dread the most is that the Palestinians - en masse – would start agitating for inclusion in the country of Israel. That's because Israelis have become (wrongly and irrationally, IMHO) wedded to the notion of a "Jewish state" - a funny devotion if we look at the endless hand-wringing among the factions perpetually trying to define "what is a Jew". Frankly, for most citizens of Israel, being Jewish does not mean much more than celebrating Hanukkah, dressing up for Purim, having a bar-Mitzvah and for the few who are so inclined - boning up on Jewish history enough to feel perpetually persecuted (and hence justified in whatever one does in the name of "never again"). For the secular person in Israel (and perhaps for many in the diaspora), being Jewish in Israel means - at the root of it - being a member of a 'special" tribe, defined more by whom it excludes than what it stands for. Therefore, it always seemed to me that challenging the tribal boundaries is by far more threatening than any physical violence or agitation for a separate state could ever be.

The one scenario I keep going back to is the [hypothetical] situation where the Palestinians wake up one day and decide that, come to think of it, they'd love to be part of the greater Israel, much as say, the Russian immigrants are, or the extant Christian community in Israel, or the Ba-hai community. Thus turning the struggle overnight into a civil rights battle, waged in courts and newspapers, rather than a physical struggle waged on battlefields. Whether agitating for equal voting rights, or the rights to liberty and happiness – those would be details people can figure out. Maybe the Palestinian leadership could offer any number of lifestyle compromises to convince Israel that they could be perfectly loyal citizens (at least as loyal, as say, some of the ultra-orthodox Jews). To be sure, a civil rights struggle has been suggested by many others, I know, but my interest is more in what the Israeli reaction is likely to be. And this is where we don't need too much imagination to conjure up the utter rage that would greet such a sea change in Palestinian aspiration.

Actually, I believe that most Israelis - were they to believe that the movement is 'for real" - would regard it as an all-out affront - a direct challenge to the tribal boundaries – the "Israel as a Jewish state" myth (which is what it is). The prospect of dealing with Arabs as potential fellow citizens – even if this makes greater Israel a reality - would be something so profoundly threatening to the dominant Israeli psychology that overnight there's likely to be some major clamoring for that much maligned 2-state solution, including the earnest offer of compromises never seen before. After all, if the 2-state scenario has indeed been used by official Israel as a fig leaf to cover up a colonial enterprise, as many of us believe, perhaps two can play at that poker game, no?

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondowei...a-civilrights-battle-for-full-citizenshi.html

Because the alternative currently unfolding does not bode too well for the future

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12/12/the_changing_face_of_israel/

 

[pjdude1219]

Actually, I think the Israelis should just go for the one state solution, shove the Arabs right out of Israel.

of course you do. The law and basic common human decency are alien to you.

The Arabs rejected U.N. 181 and started the war, the Israelis need defensible boarders, and the West Bank is a dagger at the throat of the State of Israel.

181 doesn't matter. You yourself proved it had no legal force. And no the jews started the war. When they made the decision to preempt self determination they started the war.

It is time for the Arabs to clean up the mess they made, and settle the Arabs from Palestine in their own countries, after all they confiscated 4 times the amount of land from the Jews they ran out of Arab countries as exist in all of Israel.

Still to god damn strupid to get that the crimes of another do not negate your own crimes.

By Right of Victory, Israel exist and has established a Nation, and so it shall be.

Perhaps. Still doesn't make it legal or moral but considering little things like that don't matter to you.

 

[CheskiChips]

Really? For what reason? Seeing as there is no cultural or religious divide between Jews and Muslims there? What were these "pogroms" in favour of?




Read again, not the Jews in ME. The Palestinians. Compared to the falashi or ashkenazi, the Palestinians are more Jewish in their customs.

Some educated Jews have even suggested a gedankenspiel based on this



Because the alternative currently unfolding does not bode too well for the future

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/12/12/the_changing_face_of_israel/

That's not true nor does it even make sense. How can they be "More Jewish in Custom"? Judaism is not a set of customs...customs accompany Jews. For example Ashkenazim wear all black because it's a custom acquired from the time the Catholics said each class must wear clothes representative of their hierarchial stance....which meant Jews had to wear black. So they continued to do so...it's not as if they ever thought wearing black was an ancient custom. Hassidic Jews dress like they do as a result of a Jewish philosophical movement in Russia...not because they believe it's the old way of doing things. Modern Israel in many ways has its own customs that were created by Jews in Israel. The whole claim you're making is irrelivant even if it was true.

 

[S.A.M.]

That's not true nor does it even make sense. How can they be "More Jewish in Custom"? Judaism is not a set of customs...customs accompany Jews. For example Ashkenazim wear all black because it's a custom acquired from the time the Catholics said each class must wear clothes representative of their hierarchial stance....which meant Jews had to wear black. So they continued to do so...it's not as if they ever thought wearing black was an ancient custom. Hassidic Jews dress like they do as a result of a Jewish philosophical movement in Russia...not because they believe it's the old way of doing things. Modern Israel in many ways has its own customs that were created by Jews in Israel. The whole claim you're making is irrelivant even if it was true.

I'm not familiar with traditional Judaism. I heard this from an Israeli turned American professor. According to her, Palestinian traditions are passed on from generation to generation. Unlike Babylon, which was exposed to Persians, Parthians and Arabs, Palestine was mostly Jewish and hence their traditions are more pure, whatever that means.

I suppose, as you are saying, the traditions of the Russians and ashkenazi are from foreign influences. But those of the Palestinian are the old Jewish ones.

 

[fedr808]

Recognising that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Why don't Jews move out from their tribal mindset? It hasn't worked for 4000 years of spitting on crucifixes, for 4000 years of forming exclusive communities around synagogues, for 4000 years of not considering the place where you live as home.

Maybe its time to embrace a more universal mindset. More inclusive, less exclusive.

What convert? How stupid do you think i am?

Yes, after all, they are more Jewish than the Jews.than why arent you blowing them up? Many of their customs are closer to the original Jews than those of Israelis. Other than the whole Muslim part, jihad, death to Israel, death to the Jews.....yah other than all of those beliefs they are more Jewish than we are.They are the Jews who did not leave Israel.No, theyre just the nomads whom moved in to Israel after we left, nomads, theyre nothing more, maybe even a little less. They are the Jews you should learn from, because they lived in the same place for 4000 noyears and did not get subject to pogroms.No they got the crusade. Like the ones in India, they did something right all those years. Well if by right you mean entering into an eternal race and hatred, and terrorism against your neighbors than that is an affirmative. In case you forgot, what happened in Mumbai? Who caused that? Oh yeah, YOUR NEIGHBOR DID.And I'm not talking about religion here.Than why are you implying that the Palestinian muslims are more Jewish than i am? I dont consider myself superior because im Jewish, im just wondering, why? They are probably more kosher than most Israelis anyway.No, you would not believe how kosher the Israelis are, they raise pigs in cages 3 feet above the ground ebcause it is unkosher to let them stand on Israeli soil.

Boy, why did i waste 30 minutes of my time?

 

[S.A.M.]

Boy, why did i waste 30 minutes of my time?

No believe me, it was totally worth it

they raise pigs in cages 3 feet above the ground ebcause it is unkosher to let them stand on Israeli soil.

:roflmao:

 

[fedr808]

I'm not familiar with traditional Judaism. I heard this from an Israeli turned American professor. than dont claim things like "they are more Jewish than the Jews"According to her, Palestinian traditions are passed on from generation to generation. Coming from the same genius that thinks an Islamic person is Jewish?Unlike Babylon, which was exposed to Persians, Parthians and Arabs, Palestine Israel, Israel was the name of the country where the Jews lived, Palestine is just a wasteland filled with nomads.was mostly JewishPalestine was never and has never been mostly Jews, now, if you mean Israel than your right, but than again thats obvious cause its occupied by the Jews. and hence their traditions are more pure, whatever that means."Whatever that means" boy you sure don't know this stuff very well do you?

I suppose, as you are saying, the traditions of the Russians and ashkenazi are from foreign influences. But those of the Palestinian Palestinians are MUSLIMSare the old Jewish onesone more THEY ARE MUSLIMS.

M lets hope you never ever say any of that sort of stuff in Gaza that the Muslims are more Jewish than the Jews other wise we probably wont ever see you again....in one piece.

 

[fedr808]

No believe me, it was totally worth it



:roflmao:

It's better than in India where they used to keep bears in cages, and than hook up their gall bladder or whatever to needles and syringes to get some weird liquid from it and tortured the bears.

 

[S.A.M.]

M lets hope you never ever say any of that sort of stuff in Gaza that the Muslims are more Jewish than the Jews

The Torah does say the sons of Solomon. And Israelis take Jewishness from the mother. :shrug:

other wise we probably wont ever see you again....in one piece.

Funny you should say that. Did you read this post?

Of all the possibilities, the one action that Israelis dread the most is that the Palestinians - en masse – would start agitating for inclusion in the country of Israel. That's because Israelis have become (wrongly and irrationally, IMHO) wedded to the notion of a "Jewish state" - a funny devotion if we look at the endless hand-wringing among the factions perpetually trying to define "what is a Jew".

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2180289&postcount=118

It's better than in India where they used to keep bears in cages, and than hook up their gall bladder or whatever to needles and syringes to get some weird liquid from it and tortured the bears.

What do they grow these pigs for?

 

[fedr808]

I didnt have anyone else type in the red type, no duh i read the whole post.