Israeli/Hamas disregard for human life.

[S.A.M.]

Who says he's brainwashed? Are Palestinians also not brainwashed?

Going back to a country you are a refugee from is not brainwashing. Going back to a country because you think being Jewish gives you special rights on it, to the extent of displacing native inhabitants, is.

You may believe in Aryan homeland, Manifest Destiny, Pretoria, Apartheid, Reservations and Jewish homeland and all other tribalistic shit. But don't expect me to endorse your primitive thinking.

 

[GeoffP]

Going back to a country you are a refugee from is not brainwashing.

So then the Israelis can go back. Ok. But why should they be attacked for doing so?

You may believe in Aryan homeland

Nope. Although one wonders what that's even supposed to mean.

Manifest Destiny

Nope.

Pretoria

Nope. Although that's a city and not a philosophy.

Apartheid

Nope.

Reservations

Nope. My wife is part Native American, actually.

and Jewish homeland

Hmmm. I do think they deserve a place where they can be protected from "assimilation" by people of your mindset, because it's apparent what you mean by that philosophy. Don't expect me to endorse your primitive thinking.

and all other tribalistic shit.

But you do believe in exactly that. Here's what you really think:

The Jews came in - you realize full well that they bought the land and were then attacked - and eventually were forced to form a nation for self-protection; a fact you would laud for any other group, and particularly for muslims, although not for, say, Baluchistanis, for example: they're "all part of Iran". Or Pakistan. Or whoever owns their oil. So your criticisms of tribalism are only convenient ones; you smooth over the differences in the Middle East as unimportant in the face of the theological enemy, which your hatred also identifies against as a definable race. You consistently understate - as I embarrassed you a few days ago doing - the failings of any islamic state, whereas all the Westerners on here do at least the courtesy of admitting that their system is not perfect, particularly in matters of external diplomacy. (Yet, this is true of any nation with any kind of political power; witness Pakistan in 1971 and the Ottoman empire throughout.) So, you're a supremacist, yet you lash out and accuse everyone else of being like you, in order to denigrate their positions. I'm sorry if the attacks on your religion have soured you, but unfortunately it, like US policy, has much to answer for politically.

One day, hopefully, you'll grow up and learn to see both sides of the coin. It won't be soon, but it may happen nonetheless.

 

[S.A.M.]

Since Israel is an occpation which is only 60 years old there are no Israelis going back, only Jews.

And no, I don't believe in such assumed ethnocentrism. Hopefully, never will.

Note the difference between Baluchistanis and Jews. One is a geographical association, the other a mythological relationship.

I do think they deserve a place where they can be protected from "assimilation" by people of your mindset

Then they need to move. They are in the wrong neighborhood. Colonialism based on manifest destiny requiring ethnic cleansing through mass murder [aka collateral damages] and population transfer is on the other continent(s)

 

[GeoffP]

Note the difference between Baluchistanis and Jews. One is a geographical association

Leaving aside the comment about Jews (a clinging to your own mythology, in its way), this illustrates your ignorance perfectly. The Baluchistanis don't consider themselves a mere "geographical association". You're trying to brush their distinctness under the rug because you won't dare consider that Eastern countries would suppress indigenous cultures.

Then they need to move. They are in the wrong neighborhood. Colonialism based on manifest destiny requiring ethnic cleansing through mass murder [aka collateral damages] and population transfer is on the other continent(s)

It was attempted to them, in situ. Doesn't your position strike you as a little hypocritical?

 

[S.A.M.]

Baluchistan is a place, Jews are a <insert whatever their current interpretation of religion>

A Russian Jew is possible, a Russian Baluchistani is not.

It was attempted to them, in situ. Doesn't your position strike you as a little hypocritical?

By your own standards their behaviour of the last 60 years condemns them to pogroms forever.

 

[fedr808]

Okay sam, stop bitching and tell us a solution?

What is YOUR solution to the problem?

 

[GeoffP]

Baluchistan is a place

No. Baluchistan is also an indigenous culture. I'm sure you don't trouble yourself to worry about it much, but some of them do at least, much as the Kurds do. Your talent for hypocrisy is impressive.

By your own standards their behaviour of the last 60 years condemns them to pogroms forever.

Wrong. Pogroms were committed against them, a helpless, unmilitarized culture for thousands of years in the East and the West. Israel is a response to that.

Since you're speaking for all islam these days, maybe "you" should have thought about that a few hundred years ago.

Oh, and not to forget: my comment referred to 1948. That was before the "events of the last 60 years".

 

[S.A.M.]

@fedr808:

You live in the modern world. Where the right of the individual to freedom is recognised. Unless Jews have redefined occupation as they have redefined religion, ethnicity and self defense, every single Jew occupying Palestine knows that he/she is wrong.

Recognise that and return to the Palestinians their basic human rights. Its the only sustainable solution.

 

[GeoffP]

Recognise that and return to the Palestinians their basic human rights. Its the only sustainable solution.

It isn't. It would mean civil war, as you know full well, and which I'm forced to assume you must want. So your purported humanitarianism is a mask.

 

[S.A.M.]

Occupation is not a basic human right

Israel's "legitimate struggle" against Hamas does not gain credence from the fact that the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, John Kerry, discovered during his visit to Gaza that trucks loaded with bags of pasta are not being permitted to enter the Gaza Strip because Israel is letting in only rice.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067055.html

Despite the state's formal commitment not to expand West Bank settlements, a government agency has been promoting plans over the past two years to construct thousands of housing units east of the Green Line, Haaretz has learned.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067319.html

You cannot have a civil war with occupiers. You can only be liberated from their oppression.

Note:emphasis in quote mine.

 

[fedr808]

Than what happens to the Jews?

I know how bad this may sound to you.

But what Arabs need to understand is that the Jews in Israel fight to survive to save their culture and religion, if we lose Israel, theres a good chance we lose it all.

That is why every Israeli has accepted the fact that there will be Palestinian casualties, we dont want them, but you know what, we have no second chance, if all of the Palestinians in Gaza and West bank just die, right this second, not necessarily from weapons, just drop dead. The Islamic culture wont die, it's religion wont die, its society wont die, it will take a blow, but it wont die.

Israel, if everyone in Israel dies right now, we lose our culture, we lose our faith, we lose our sense of belonging. In reality, the Jewish religion barely, barely survived the first time we lost Israel.

None of us are sure we could ever survive again if it ever happened again. That is probably why so many Jews in Israel like Lieberman are so radical, even racist, because they realize that the world has never treated us right, we have been hated, killed, massacred, all for just staying loyal to our beliefs. We have been wronged in every imaginable way, and we have never ever, ever had the power to stand up for ourselves.

Maybe these radical people are radical because they feel that those whom wronged us, those whom have destroyed, killed, raped, the Jewish people did wrong. And we feel that they deserve punishment.

So maybe Gaza and the west bank, are merely getting a taste of what our lives have been live for the last 5,000 years.

 

[S.A.M.]

So maybe Gaza and the west bank, are merely getting a taste of what our lives have been live for the last 5,000 years.

Then you know how that ends. Jews should learn from Christians and Muslims why they don't need a state to keep their religion or culture alive.

 

[fedr808]

Does it end right no.

Does it end fairly, no.

But than again, weve dealt with it for five thousand years, and people need to understand, that it is pay back time.

We fight to survive, if that means killing Palestinians, if it means dropping cluster bombs, if it means nuclear bombs, no Jew would ever hesitate for one moment if we knew in our heart of hearts, that we can get back all that has been taken from us, if we could not be hated, killed, and raped.

So you know what, if you want to bitch about 1300 plaestinians, its your beef, just remember, you cant even count how many Jews have been killed for religious intolerance.

No one deserves what we got. No one.

And now that we finally see the light at the end of the tunnel, we will do anything to keep from reentering that tunnel

 

[S.A.M.]

Then you're ignoring history. Remember, war has never achieved any solution in the Middle East. They are a people of dialogue. Even the uneducated Mongols recognised that.

 

[fedr808]

Then you know how that ends. Jews should learn from Christians and Muslims why they don't need a state to keep their religion or culture alive.

It's not a state to the Jews. It is The State, the home, it is the center of the world for the Jews.

If it were to buy us one week of peace where no Jew got hurt, no one fired a rocket, no artillery shell hit Israel, I would kill myself without even flinching, because i know, that even though everyone has a right to live, i am dieing for the right of my friends and family and my culture and religion to survie, for just another week. I would not even blink before i said yes.

 

[GeoffP]

Then you know how that ends. Jews should learn from Christians and Muslims why they don't need a state to keep their religion or culture alive.

Excuse me? You are unfamiliar with the plethora of islamic states, and the way in which their citizenship is intimately attached to religion?

What is the point in debating with you? You have already illustrated that there can be no compromise with you, and that you only want war.

 

[S.A.M.]

It's not a state to the Jews. It is The State, the home, it is the center of the world for the Jews.

If it were to buy us one week of peace where no Jew got hurt, no one fired a rocket, no artillery shell hit Israel, I would kill myself without even flinching, because i know, that even though everyone has a right to live, i am dieing for the right of my friends and family and my culture and religion to survie, for just another week. I would not even blink before i said yes.

Which is why you'll eventually lose it all. Tribalism just does not work in the modern world. Try it, if you like, but its already falling apart.

 

[GeoffP]

Then you're ignoring history. Remember, war has never achieved any solution in the Middle East. They are a people of dialogue. Even the uneducated Mongols recognised that.

They are also a "people" (since we're using those homey terms now) of cultural repression and intolerance. One might call that "dialogue", I suppose.

 

[fedr808]

Then you're ignoring history. Remember, war has never achieved any solution in the Middle East. They are a people of dialogue. Even the uneducated Mongols recognised that.

That's too bad, because i would hate to die.

We fight to survive, nothing more, and we wont suffer any less. We dont care about taking Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, etc. We just want to live our lives
In the one place we call home.

We just want to survive
We want to get what has fairly been ours, we want to get what every person in the world deserves, security, we want to love, we want to live, we want to advance. We just want to survive, nothing more, nothing less.

nothing more nothing less, thats all we are,

If that doesnt mean anything to you, than i guess i just wasted the last 30 minutes of my life.

 

[S.A.M.]

They are also a "people" (since we're using those homey terms now) of cultural repression and intolerance. One might call that "dialogue", I suppose.

Since you speak from the position of ignorance, I need only remind you that its not in the Middle East that natives live on reservations. Except in Israel.