Israel begins sell-off of refugees' land

[S.A.M.]

The Germans give the money to the Jews. Maybe there are many Jews who are not descended from the holocaust who also get it. Maybe there are many non-Nazi Germans whose descendents tax money goes into it. But Israel demands and gets the money, regardless of the innocence of present day Germans or the ethnic cleansing done by present day Jews. They also got back artwork that the Nazis stole and are now demanding the Arabs compensate them for their assets in Arab lands. So don't give me any crap about innocent Jews.

In fact, the Israelis squeeze more than they have a right to considering they already stole all the Palestinian land which the Europeans generously donated to them. Even the Germans are fed up

Germany Refuses to Negotiate with Israel over New Claims

The German government is refusing to negotiate with Israel over new compensation claims for Holocaust survivors. The dispute is causing tension between Israel and the Jewish Claims Conference -- which Germany says is its correct negotiating partner.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,523846,00.html

 

[WillNever]

Of course the Germans are fed up. The Third Reich is gone. There is no one who deserves to pay them. Reparations blow, and the only artwork they give to Jews are pieces that are held in state owned museums. Descendants of Nazis aren't required to pay anybody simply for being a Nazi descendant, however.

Anyone who thinks that they deserve reparations for events that they were not even alive to see is a nutcase who needs to get their head rewired, and that includes Jews and Palestinians alike. History sucks... but life goes on.

 

[S.A.M.]

Right, but if you take land and compensation for crimes against your grandparents, you also pay for crimes by them. Time for the Jews of Israel and their Zionist supporters to pony up their debts.

 

[WillNever]

What percentage of the Israeli population ardently seeks out German reparations..? I doubt that many do. Regardless of what they believe, they shouldn't get any reparations... and the only reparations that Palestinians should get are ones that don't deprive Jews of their homes.

And who are the Zionist supporters? I'm not Jewish but I recognize Israel's right to exist. I don't see how I could possibly owe money to Palestinians for that, however.

 

[S.A.M.]

Who cares? If they disagree with compensation, they can return everything to the Europeans including the gift of 51% of Palestine.

 

[pjdude1219]

No one is "owed" an apology from people who weren't actually the ones to harm them, and the fact of the matter is that most Israelis have never done anything to harm a Palestinian person. It's the government you have to blame, not the people at large. The only thing you can blame most Israeli people for is for supporting illegal actions of their government -- but not simply for living on land. Countries around the world were built this way, so I honestly don't care about "we as a people lived here first" arguments. Unless you are a first generation palestinian who was kicked off the land, then you aren't owed anything. The palestinians who were born after that period have no claim to it, pure and simple. The whole of Egypt was conquered by foreignborn muslims who decided to take over and occupy the place. You think that if some ancient Eygptians who followed the old gods were to emerge and say they wanted their country back... that the muslims in Egypt would actually hand it over? The answer is no, because today's muslims weren't the ones who tore the place up. They believe (and are correct) that the land is now theirs.

It doesn't matter if the Israeli government is the one to compensate the Israelis for that land or if it's the Palestinians who want that land. The point is that someone has to compensate them. Those families don't deserve to be deprived of their wealth and their way of life either. Taking it away from them won't bring an end to suffering. It would merely be a transferrance of suffering onto other people who, in most cases, didn't do anything bad. That is not a noble aspiration, and that is why the Israelis are there to stay.

Also, about world world II: Actual concentration camp victims who SURVIVED were paid reparations. There were no reparations paid to surviving relatives of Holocaust victims, in most cases. Usually, what the survivors received was a stipend. And some Holocaust victims (Jewish or not) were able to recover stolen artwork -- and only if it was stolen, not purchased. Most of the artwork recovered was held in museums owned by the state, not by private citizens.

I got into the same argument with eltric fetus just because justice is painful to those who have commited crimes and gained from them doesn't mean justice should be served.

 

[pjdude1219]

So did that make it legal? did that even make it moral? and guess what, U.N. 141 doesn't mention Palestinians, it applies to all refugees, even the right of return or reimbursement for land lost that belonged to the Jews.

it wasn't a legal arguement. it was a cause and effect argument.

So, until the Jews are paid for, or given the right of return to their lands, it is a even trade, now the most interesting thing about the who deal is that the Jews took in the refugees from all the Arab lands and integrated them into their society, what did the Arabs do?

and the third option?

Shit all over their Arab Palestinian brethren, there are no refugee camps in Israel for displaced Jews from Arab Countries, but every Arab country has refugee camps for displaced Arabs from the Palestine.

The Arab countries took over 4 times as much Jewish land and property as there is in all of Israel, and still can't find a way to settle the Arabs of Palestine into that land, or integrate then into their societies, yes, so sad, to bad, it is the Arabs and Fellow Muslims who are the ones who have screwed the Arabs of Palestine, even today Egypt still blockades the border of Gaza and strictly limits access from Gaza into Egypt, Jordan does the same, and Jordan is the homeland of the Palestinians.

What the arabs countries are willing to give the palestinians is irrelevant what matters is the 3 choices law gives them and you demand 2 be taken from them.

 

[pjdude1219]

What are you basing your perceptions on exactly..? The normal, everday Jews who are buying property are not "killers." That's just dehumanizing crappola, and anyone who would believe that crappola -- and then use it an excuse to kill others -- is dangerously deluded. Blowing yourself up in a supermarket to kill a whole bunch of innocent people (including children) is not "self defense."

And as I said before, the only Palestinians who have any claim to any property are the ones who owned it in their lifetime, not their relatives or their future generations.

and your wrong. Sorry we got away with it for this long we can't be touched is not a moral,legal,or rational argument. The palestinians still have a claim to it because guess what an illegal act cannot confer legitimacy.

 

[pjdude1219]

War is hell, if your going to start one, Win, it is the only justification.

So you support the jewish war of conquest in 48?

 

[pjdude1219]

Occupiers how? Most Jews in Israel were born there and that has been there home. You have a real complex with wanting people to inherit the crimes of their parents. So why should your religion supercede the actual place that you were born in, when determining your home?

you do not inherit the crime but you do inherit the responsbility to rectify the crime. International law gives refugess 3 choices settle in another country, gain compensation, and being allowed to return to their homes. That is there choice and no one is allowed to take that away from them which is what you want to do.

 

[pjdude1219]

Most Israeli Jews come from Israel, SAM. Their parents come from Europe.

Irrelevant

But most of them are innocent. Most haven't hurt anyone.

No they aren't innocewnt they have continued the crime of dening them basic rights.

Them benefitting from bad things that their parents did doesn't change that, nor does it warrant ruining their own life (and their families' lives) by going on some guilt trip.

It won't ruin them the even same would be willing to have the Israeli government pay for the movement not the person themselves.

 

[WillNever]

you do not inherit the crime but you do inherit the responsbility to rectify the crime.

Err, no you don't. These aren't the middle ages. You don't owe anybody *ANYTHING* for things your parents did. Your parents aren't you. You are an entirely different person.

 

[S.A.M.]

Err, no you don't. These aren't the middle ages. You don't owe anybody *ANYTHING* for things your parents did. Your parents aren't you. You are an entirely different person.

If you are living on occupied lands that are internationally recognised as occupied, you are still breaking international law if your parents are the ones who were the occupiers.

If you inherit stolen property from your parents it is still stolen property

Refugees don't lose their rights simply because the people who evicted them are dead

 

[WillNever]

Not all the land was stolen. A ton of it was abandoned when the Palestinians migrated after not accepting partition and became self-imposed refugees. As I said earlier, your proposal doesn't solve the underlying problem. It just solves the problem for only one side, while creating another group of refugees. I see no reason for that to happen.

 

[S.A.M.]

No one believes that hasbara anymore. Get with the real history
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxxMppPxXCw

http://www.zochrot.org/index.php?lang=english

Its very simple, if the Jews of Israel do not want to pay for the crimes of their parents, then they should give up stolen property.

 

[pjdude1219]

Err, no you don't. These aren't the middle ages. You don't owe anybody *ANYTHING* for things your parents did. Your parents aren't you. You are an entirely different person.

When your parents die and leave debt tell the bank that I'm sure they will listen. You are responsible for the unpayed debts(which an unrectified crime is) of your ancestors.

 

[pjdude1219]

Not all the land was stolen. A ton of it was abandoned when the Palestinians migrated after not accepting partition and became self-imposed refugees. As I said earlier, your proposal doesn't solve the underlying problem. It just solves the problem for only one side, while creating another group of refugees. I see no reason for that to happen.

It wasn't abandoned they had every intention of returning they just didn't want to stay in the area of the war of jewish conquest was going on.

 

[WillNever]

That did happen, SAM. Some were forcibly removed, some left of their own accord and were then turned away by their arab brothers in the neighboring states.

The only Palestinians who have claim to some property are those who were alive and present when they lost their home. That is the only case where it is justified to compensate the Jewish family who owns that home to allow the Palestinian owner to settle back in. However, that does not describe most Palestinians today, who were born afterward and never legally owned those homes in the first place. Their claim is purely based on mythos, not law.

 

[S.A.M.]

That did happen, SAM. Some were forcibly removed, some left of their own accord and were then turned away by their arab brothers in the neighboring states.

The only Palestinians who have claim to some property are those who were alive and present when they lost their home. That is the only case where it is justified to compensate the Jewish family who owns that home to allow the Palestinian owner to settle back in. However, that does not describe most Palestinians today -- who were born afterward and never legally owned those homes in the first place.

No one leaves their home "of their own accord" leaving behind all their belongings unless they are being massacred. Ethnic cleansing is not voluntary and running to save yourself from being massacred does not strip you of your rights. Thats what refugees are.

Meanwhile the Jews today continue the legacy of their parents and are fully 100% responsible for crimes against Palestinians:

Palestinians are as eager as anyone to see positive economic development for their tormented country. But they know full well that real economic progress awaits their release from Israeli military occupation (West Bank, East Jerusalem) and siege (Gaza Strip).

Consider the recent media promotion of the Netanyahu government's view that the occupied West Bank is witnessing rapid economic growth. Thomas Friedman picked up on that theme in his New York Times column, as did Michael Oren, Israel's ambassador to the United States, in this newspaper. The selective economic data they provide ignore the reality: Occupied Palestinian territory is not a sovereign country where traditional economic measures apply.

I was the manager who oversaw the establishment of the first modern mall in the West Bank—the Plaza Shopping Center in El Bireh. I can attest that the success of a West Bank mall rests on a thin layer of elite consumer privilege poised precariously over a chasm of widespread disempowerment. Until West Bank Palestinians gain free and open access to the world economy, beyond the markets of the occupying power, major enterprises in Palestinian towns will suffer.

Objective analyses by the World Bank suggest that Israel's repressive practices will not permit the Palestinian economy to develop meaningfully.

On water, a bank report from April 2009 notes that the "availability of water resources is highly disparate, with fresh water per capita in Israel approximately four times that of WBG [West Bank and Gaza]."

On mobility: "In the West Bank, restrictions on movement of people and access to natural resources has stifled economic growth."

On security: "Recurrent destruction of trees, private homes and public infrastructure, as well as [Israeli] settlers' encroachments on private land create a permanent state of insecurity."

On trade: "[Palestinians] exporting through Israel is becoming more difficult and . . . the current alternative through Jordan is severely limited. For Palestinian exporters to effectively compete on the international market they must be allowed to use modern door-to-door logistical systems."

David Craig, World Bank country director for the West Bank and Gaza, gave a realistic assessment in summing up a December bank report: "The Palestinian economy has the potential for dramatic growth, even in the midst of the current global recession. This can only be achieved by the private sector through export oriented growth. The new [Israeli] restrictions described in this report undermine this goal."

Israel's stranglehold over Palestinian economic resources is ongoing. Israel occupies or controls Palestinian land, airspace and electromagnetic spectrum used for telecommunications. By refusing to permit an already-licensed second Palestinian cellular operator to launch, Israel is putting hundreds of new jobs on hold and blocking the first step to liberalizing the Palestinian telecommunications market. I was personally involved in establishing the first Palestinian telecommunications operator in 1996 and can attest to the ongoing hinderance of Israeli practices.

Peace talk is cheap; actions by Israel that would make real peace—even economic peace—a reality are still the exception rather than the rule. I do not disparage any progress that has been made but, viewed in context, it is no more than window dressing.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052970204884404574362352547788232.html

 

[pjdude1219]

That did happen, SAM. Some were forcibly removed, some left of their own accord and were then turned away by their arab brothers in the neighboring states.

So in other words you think its right for punishing people for not staying in a warzone?

The only Palestinians who have claim to some property are those who were alive and present when they lost their home.

No will all the palestinians have a right to come back to their land.

That is the only case where it is justified to compensate the Jewish family who owns that home to allow the Palestinian owner to settle back in.

maybe to you but not according to the law and reason.

However, that does not describe most Palestinians today -- who were born afterward and never legally owned those homes in the first place.

a they owned those homes and the fact the their ancestors are dead doesn't mean it still isn't theirs they have inherited the claim.

Their claim is purely based on mythos, not law.

No the palestinian claim is based in law the jewish one is mythos.