Islam

[wynn]

The only way Fraggle can authoritatively say "god is an imagination" is if he was omnipotent/ omniscient/ etc .

So I guess that leaves us with two options.

Fraggle is talking crap or he is god.

Or he is simply talking about a god that no theist ever believed in.
In which case, Fraggle is committing the fallacy of equivocation: he is pointing at the God of the theists, but works with a definition of "GOD" that no theist holds.

The only way Fraggle can authoritatively say "god is an imagination" is if he was omnipotent/ omniscient/ etc .

So I guess that leaves us with two options.

Fraggle is talking crap or he is god.

His tone certainly suggests he believes himself to be the latter.

 

[Balerion]

Simply claiming that someone or something is imaginary doesn't make it/them so.

Prove that God is imaginary.

Or you're just talking woo-woo crap.

Asking someone to prove God is imaginary is woo-woo crap.

 

[Balerion]

Or he is simply talking about a god that no theist ever believed in.
In which case, Fraggle is committing the fallacy of equivocation: he is pointing at the God of the theists, but works with a definition of "GOD" that no theist holds.

The opposite, actually. He's talking about common conceptions of God, which are based on primitive superstitions and myths. The God that has any chance of existing is one that almost assuredly no theist has considered.

His tone certainly suggests he believes himself to be the latter.

Clearly not. But then, you wouldn't be wynn if you didn't cook up a load of crap like this, would you?

 

[kx000]

The God that has any chance of existing is one that almost assuredly no theist has considered.

Who would that be?

 

[seagypsy]

Who would that be?

I always had a soft spot for the God depicted by George Burns in the film, "Oh God!" costarring John Denver. The idea that God is a smart ass makes way more sense than God being a benevolent creator. There is certainly more evidence to support that God would be a smart ass.

 

[wynn]

Asking someone to prove God is imaginary is woo-woo crap.

So atheists should get away with making bold claims they cannot support?

 

[Balerion]

So atheists should get away with making bold claims they cannot support?

They can support the claim, and do support it.

What you want is proof, which is impossible. Proof only exists in math.

 

[Photizo]

The God that has any chance of existing is one that almost assuredly no theist has considered.

Bingo. "When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." "

 

[Balerion]

Bingo. "When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." "

I hope you realize I'm not endorsing the idea of a god existing. I'm actually a proponent of the idea that godhood itself is most likely just an invention of man, and that no such entity exists. But if one does, it's certainly not any of the ones alleged in the mythologies of antiquity.

 

[lightgigantic]

They can support the claim, and do support it.

What you want is proof, which is impossible. Proof only exists in math.

The problem with supporting an absolute negative is that one comes off as a doofus. That's why atheists (particularly on this site) have to be constantly reminded that they have just left the safe secure compounds of weak atheism everytime they get hot headed and say something stupid like "god is an imagination"

:shrug:

 

[Photizo]

I hope you realize I'm not endorsing the idea of a god existing. I'm actually a proponent of the idea that godhood itself is most likely just an invention of man, and that no such entity exists. But if one does, it's certainly not any of the ones alleged in the mythologies of antiquity.

Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.

All truth is God's Truth.

 

[Neverfly]

Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life.

All truth is God's Truth.

At this point, you're not even contributing. You're not offering anything that is a discussion.

You're just preaching. Proselytizing.

 

[wynn]

They can support the claim, and do support it.

Yeah, with moderator power trips.

 

[Balerion]

Yeah, with moderator power trips.

And vague accusations.

Oh, wait. That's you. Nevermind.

 

[kx000]

I always had a soft spot for the God depicted by George Burns in the film, "Oh God!" costarring John Denver. The idea that God is a smart ass makes way more sense than God being a benevolent creator. There is certainly more evidence to support that God would be a smart ass.

We see things very differently. I have always thought the world considerate, and kind. I theorize God as Love, not Smart Ass.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

This talk of "shrewd business" and similar makes me uncomfortable. I saw you do this in another thread, where you asked us to "raise our hands if we knew a Jew who would follow a faith that made interest a sin." I'm going to leave this alone, and simply say that you can save the broad, mildly (and not so mildly) bigoted remarks for when you're offline.

About half of my family are Jewish and I'm merely repeating the things they have said about their own community--the things they taught me. They know the proper translation of the passage in the Torah. They were Europe's bankers. They have been persecuted for it. I think that gives them the right to say whatever they want about themselves, and not to complain when others repeat it.

What they would like from the rest of humanity is merely not to be shot and burned. Everything else washes off--and usually ends up as the makings of a damn good joke.

Shalom.

 

[Balerion]

About half of my family are Jewish and I'm merely repeating the things they have said about their own community--the things they taught me. They know the proper translation of the passage in the Torah. They were Europe's bankers. They have been persecuted for it. I think that gives them the right to say whatever they want about themselves, and not to complain when others repeat it.

What they would like from the rest of humanity is merely not to be shot and burned. Everything else washes off--and usually ends up as the makings of a damn good joke.

Shalom.

I know, I know, it's an old chestnut for the bigot to say something awful about a people and defend it by saying "All of my friends are ____" Even if it's true that half of your family is Jewish and this is what they say, it doesn't mean these are any less insulting stereotypes.

Say what you want, I'm just saying it makes me uncomfortable.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I know, I know, it's an old chestnut for the bigot to say something awful about a people and defend it by saying "All of my friends are ____"

I'm not saying this about my friends, I'm saying it about my own family and about 50% of myself. Hitler would have counted me as a Jew and gassed me--even though ironically my Jewish father and my Jewish wife would not qualify me for Israeli citizenship. My family didn't tell me I had "Jewish blood" until the 1960s lest I let it be known to the wrong people. It took a long time for people to be sure the Nazis would not rise again--and not necessarily in the same country.

Even if it's true that half of your family is Jewish and this is what they say, it doesn't mean these are any less insulting stereotypes.

You just don't get it. The Jewish people do not regard these as insults. They are proud of the fact that they can read and write not only the language of the host country but also Hebrew. They are proud of the fact that they understand the importance of cleanliness and thus had a much lower death toll during the Black Plague than the Gentiles, who believed that immersing oneself in water was a sin and the ability to swim was evidence of witchcraft. They are proud of the fact that they understand basic economics, including the concept of interest on loaned money, and used this knowledge to keep the European economy from crashing even further during the thousand years of ignorance and squalor during which the Christian Church had a stranglehold on the continent--the era we refer to as the Dark Ages. They are proud of the fact that wherever they go they do their best to be good citizens and obey the law, by (among other things) transacting business cleverly (or "shrewdly") and paying their taxes.

The Buddhist/Daoist Chinese rewarded them for this. The Christian Europeans persecuted them.

Say what you want, I'm just saying it makes me uncomfortable.

You need to talk to more Jews. You really don't understand them. They don't want you to be uncomfortable because your people make fun of them for being who they are, while you insist stupidly that they're not really like that. That is the insult, and you don't even understand it! They want you to understand that they are like that, that they're proud of it, and they wish more of the rest of the population were like that.

Perhaps it's actually a shame that of all the Abrahamic religions, Judaism is not evangelical.

 

[spidergoat]

Or he is simply talking about a god that no theist ever believed in.
In which case, Fraggle is committing the fallacy of equivocation: he is pointing at the God of the theists, but works with a definition of "GOD" that no theist holds.

It's only really practical to refute the God defined in the common culture, as there can be an infinite number of different concepts. Atheists are rather sensitive to the approach you are taking because it's a common tactic that theists do to avoid critique. When pressed, they often define God in such a vague way that it really doesn't mean anything.

 

[wynn]

It's only really practical to refute the God defined in the common culture, as there can be an infinite number of different concepts. Atheists are rather sensitive to the approach you are taking because it's a common tactic that theists do to avoid critique. When pressed, they often define God in such a vague way that it really doesn't mean anything.

I am just being precise.
If you prefer wild goose chases ...