Here's another site that doesn't seem to misrepresent the quotations; although, the author of the blog might be bias. Dwindling in Unbelief
Islam
- Thread starter shazashadeen
- Start date
I don't see how what I said could be interpreted as "it's all love and daisies". I only said that the site you gave was not reliable. Personally, I would not trust online sources for religious texts, at least not exclusively. They are usually handy if you have a rough idea of what a verse says but can't remember where. Like if someone can't remember which verse says "for god so loved the world... " they can type that into google and get John 3:16 of the Bible. But IMO, I would go to the actual hard books to see what is actually said in a verse. But that is just me.
Also any blog will present a faith in light of the interpretation of the blog owner. It is almost impossible to avoid that. A blog by Pat Robertson will represent the bible in the light of the interpretation of Pat Robertson. If Pat Robertson offers a blog on Islam, you can bet he will present the Qur'an in light of his interpretations of it. So he will find any verse he can reasonably interpret to support terrorism and will make sure people see it the way he does. While a Muslim who has strong feelings against terrorism can take the same verse and explain why it means the opposite of what Pat Robertson.
The thing is, no one reads a religious text completely objectively. You would almost have to be a drone with no emotions to do it. We have our beliefs that have been established through our experiences. We read a text looking for confirmation of our beliefs. If we have preconceived notions about the text we are reading, we will zero in on the phrases that we can interpret to mean things that support those notions. This is true of religion, politics, and philosophy. Anything that can have a direct affect on how we live or perceive the world and ourselves. Even when reading the news paper, we will reject anything that doesn't support what we hold to be true. Our ego depends on it. Anytime we have a change in perspective we destabilize our ego to a certain degree. It's an uncomfortable feeling to realize something we held to be true, isn't. Like when discovering Santa Claus isn't real, or that the person we love has been unfaithful to us. Discovering the world isn't what we thought it was is scary. And so we fight changes to our perspectives. It's our nature.
Islam is no worse than any other religion. No worse than any other delusion. The world is a cruel place. There is no god to save us. And we are all going to die and cease to exist some day. And nothing any one of us does today, will matter in the end. One day I will be dead and there will not be a single person alive who remembers that I ever lived. My life is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The same as everyone else. Most people simply do not want to believe that, and so they don't.
If you don't want to put time into studying the Qur'an, then don't. But I hardly see any practicality in debating an issue you have no desire to educate yourself on before hand.
Bowser, something to consider:
I quote from wikipedia:
The small minority, when under heavy scrutiny from the majority, surrendered.
Think about if the roles were reversed. Some minority U.S. soldiers have gone half-cocked all crazy and murdered civilians in Afghanistan. Do those few represent all U.S. Americans? So, the U.S. condemned the attacks and promised justice. It's the same.
The majority, like most Christians, tend to be peaceful, even if the scriptures of either book have plenty of bloodthirsty passages.
I applaud and am grateful to the actions of Libyan Muslims, who stood up against fear and bullying and drove the 'asshole Islamists" out of their hiding holes.
I quote from wikipedia:
The small minority, when under heavy scrutiny from the majority, surrendered.
Think about if the roles were reversed. Some minority U.S. soldiers have gone half-cocked all crazy and murdered civilians in Afghanistan. Do those few represent all U.S. Americans? So, the U.S. condemned the attacks and promised justice. It's the same.
The majority, like most Christians, tend to be peaceful, even if the scriptures of either book have plenty of bloodthirsty passages.
I applaud and am grateful to the actions of Libyan Muslims, who stood up against fear and bullying and drove the 'asshole Islamists" out of their hiding holes.
Yes, I remember that story, and it does give hope for the future there. I would like to see more of it. Such would certainly improve popular perceptions. It seems that Islam is still evolving as Christianity was centuries ago. There's much that needs to change, however.
How certain of this statement are you? Let me be clear, I'm not certain, either. See, what did the Afghan news station say about Americans killing civilians?
Has our own news coverage been fair? Maybe it has, I am not sure.
But how many protests, how much pushing back do Muslims regularly do? How much do Muslims condemn the violence- how strong is that majority?
I don't know any of these answers. I'd like to believe that we've not been filled in on the whole picture, that it's far more common than we think and has been for a while. Maybe it hasn't been... I do not know. I'd rather not assume, now as I think on it, though I've had my time doing some assuming.
You're right, of course. Having come from a somewhat Christian background, I can fondly say that Christianity is all about love, but there are plenty of online sources that can dispute that notion by simply quoting from the source. Regardless of what I was taught and would like to believe, I have to be honest and recognize, yeah, there's some evil stuff in the bible. Can I safely recognize the same when reading quotes from the Koran? Do I really need to read the book?
I appreciate that you found a peaceful and inspirational message from your interpretation, but apparently there's room for justifying more violent motivations. Yes, I want to believe that most Muslims are peace-loving people--and that's probably true for most--but there seems to be a disproportionate number of extremist associated with the religion than there are with any other religion, which you might have noted earlier in this thread.
I suppose we are both victims of our own ignorance. We are dependent on our sources of information as they are available. What do we know of the region and its culture from popular sources that might not be true? I mean, how much of it could be concealed?
I've been pondering all this business for quite some time and have finally reached one conclusion. We can make a direct comparison between Islam and pretty much any other group of people - todays youth, for example.
The world is full of kids - and most of them are pretty well behaved. But there are also street gangs in every country (as far as I can tell) that are bent on hatred and violence. And those gangs have their "clerics" (leaders) who put a lot of effort into making them even MORE violent. And "Iffin you an't a member of OUR gang then we a'gonna git ya, muther!"
And Islam, as a whole, isn't any better or worse. <shrug> They have their clerics, some of whom preach love and brotherhood and others that preach jihad against everyone else, even Muslims who disagree with them on very minor points. Nothing more than just another form of street gangs.
So here's my overall position: I have no problem with Muslims or Islam - it's the BAD APPLE INDIVIDUALS in the group(s) that are causing ALL the problems.
I suppose we cling to our beliefs. Where this religion is concerned, and considering that there are over a billion followers, I would have to assume that not all are extremists. We would be in a world of hurt if they were. It would seem that most practice a more peaceable understanding of the Koran than the few who don't.
I have to disagree with this. Islam is fundamentally a more reactionary religion than either Christianity or Judaism. You have to remember that it is younger than either of those faiths, and could be considered something of a plagiarism of Christianity. As such, Islam tends to be more extreme, even when it is being more progressive. Consider how, in spite of man's domineering role in the household, women have more rights in Islam than they do in the other Abrahamic faiths. Also consider how war is mandated by Islam under the right circumstance, while you can't find that kind of direct injunction in Christianity.
That isn't to say Christianity is "better," of course. I think that word should be reserved for choices that are already good. In this case, the better term for Christianity and Judaism would be "more benign." I mean, do you really consider Islam no worse than, say, Unitarianism?
I think it's still evolving.
Seems more like a conflict between secularism in the West and religious fervor in the East. Personally, I could care less which is the better religion.
WOAH!!! I take a HUGE exception to that statement when it's compared to Christianity. Please show some direct proof of that - if you can.
The thing is, other religions don't play an important role in western society that they once did. They have evolved and changed with the culture. Islam is stagnant.
Your incredulity is based on two things: One, your ignorance of Islam. Two, your mistaking of the modern Western society we live in today as an example of Christianity. I suggest remedying both of those pretty quickly if you're going to engage in these discussions.
Women have more rights in Islam than they do in Christianity or Judaism. I recommend reading the Wiki entry for starters.
It's easy to look at how women are abused through the mandating of the burqa, or how in some countries they are not allowed to move around without chaperone, but you must understand that while these abuses and means of oppression are still disgusting, the status of women as citizens and as equals in the eyes of God is greater in Islam than the other monotheisms. Sad, but true. It may sound ridiculous to you because you're used to the West, where women are equal across the board, but this is representative of secular, not Christian, ideals.
Irrelevant to what I asked you to substantiate. The HIGHLY inaccurate statement you made was "...women have more rights in Islam than they do in the other Abrahamic faiths."
Will you now admit you were wrong?????
Irrelevant to what I asked you to substantiate. The HIGHLY inaccurate statement you made was "...women have more rights in Islam than they do in the other Abrahamic faiths."
Will you now admit you were wrong?????
I wouldn't say Judaism and Christianity have changed all that much. Their role has changed, but the faiths remain very much the same. Islam is no different in that sense. What has remained stagnant are the cultures in many middle eastern nations.
Actually, I made that claim. And I have substantiated it.
Will you do the work and learn about this religion (religions, really, since you seem to think Christianity is synonymous with modern western society) and come back to admit you were wrong?
Had the wrong person and I apologize.
Back to your claim: You've substantiated precisely *nothing*! I want proof, not just your own words - without the proof they are completely worthless.