Islam

[Neverfly]

The common interpretation of the faith is what defines it. It's a hard pill to swallow and I did fight it in the past. But many may see I avoid defending Islam anymore. Because those who oppose it are correct. The common interpretation is all that is relevant. What Mohammed intended no longer matters. No one practices Islam according to the Qur'an or according to Mohammed's teachings. They find whatever excuses they can by twisting the texts, creating false hadiths, following hadith in general, ignoring the Qur'an, to justify their arrogant need to assert their supremacy over others and violently so. It is true of many if not most religions.

The Qur'an was a nice try but no well intentioned spiritual leader can overcome human nature.

I stopped calling myself a Muslim when I decided for myself that I did not want to be associated with the actions of the majority of Muslims around the world. I stopped believing in God when I came to acknowledge and understand human nature for what it is.

It's a shame, really, and Christianity does the exact same thing with it's bible.
Many of the teachings of the Qur'an were solid, even if not necessarily... scientific. Still superstition in there but it was an improvement.
An improvement that was distorted and changed by what the followers wanted it to be, rather than what the originator intended.
And it's clear to anyone that Christianity has done the same thing- "re-translated the bible" to mean what they want it to, cherry picking scriptures they like and ignoring ones that they don't.

Personally, I believe that that which you defended was not what Muslims were practicing and therein lay the difference.

 

[wynn]

I stopped calling myself a Muslim when I decided for myself that I did not want to be associated with the actions of the majority of Muslims around the world. I stopped believing in God when I came to acknowledge and understand human nature for what it is.

Or perhaps you never actually believed in God; only in a god that humans invented. Or perhaps by divine standards, you weren't much of a believer to begin with.

There is, after all, an important psychological momentum for ex-believers to posit that the GOD they believed in was true, or that their belief was genuine and advanced - otherwise, they may have to admit that they were remiss a lot more than they are comfortable acknowledge.

 

[seagypsy]

Or perhaps you never actually believed in God; only in a god that humans invented. Or perhaps by divine standards, you weren't much of a believer to begin with.

Possibly. I often, when practicing faith, told people that we never really change religions and that I never did, as I went from Christian to Muslim. That my beliefs never changed, I simply discovered a religion that more accurately described what I held to be true, which was the writings of the Qur'an.

Though, I'm not sure why this is relevant to the OP. Whether I ever truly believed has nothing to do what I posted regarding the common interpretation of Islam, by muslims, and my opinion of that common interpretation.

There is, after all, an important psychological momentum for ex-believers to posit that the GOD they believed in was true, or that their belief was genuine and advanced - otherwise, they may have to admit that they were remiss a lot more than they are comfortable acknowledge.

Can you rephrase this? For some reason it isn't flowing in a way that I can tell what you said. Maybe some small word was left out or something that interferes with the clear expression of what you meant to say. Or maybe I'm just stupid, but I wanna give myself the benefit of the doubt.

 

[wynn]

Possibly. I often, when practicing faith, told people that we never really change religions and that I never did, as I went from Christian to Muslim. That my beliefs never changed, I simply discovered a religion that more accurately described what I held to be true, which was the writings of the Qur'an.

Though, I'm not sure why this is relevant to the OP. Whether I ever truly believed has nothing to do what I posted regarding the common interpretation of Islam, by muslims, and my opinion of that common interpretation.

Who are the people who shape this "common interpretation of Islam"?

It is not unlikely that there are more, perhaps many more people like you, who are just months or few years away from renouncing their Islamic faith, but who nevertheless still consider themselves Muslims and expect others to consider them Muslims.
Then there are people who just formally stay or become Muslim, for non-religious reasons (such as socio-economic pressures), even though they've lost their faith long ago or never even had it; yet they consider themselves Muslims.

And these people, too, are shaping what then goes as the "common interpretation of Islam."
Such potential and undeclared apostates surely cannot rightfully be considered authorities on Islam or representative of Islam.
So I question how valid this "common interpretation of Islam" can be.

Can you rephrase this? For some reason it isn't flowing in a way that I can tell what you said. Maybe some small word was left out or something that interferes with the clear expression of what you meant to say. Or maybe I'm just stupid, but I wanna give myself the benefit of the doubt.

Believers may invest a lot in their religiousness. The fact that they invest so much can make them biased into thinking that they invested wisely, genuinely, productively, that they figured out the truth of their religion.
As if to say, "I spend so many hours praying and studying scriptures etc., surely I now know what my religion is about."

It's not uncommon to find ex-believers who claim to be experts in matters of God and religion. Yet that expertise can be illusory, a result of their overestimating their past religious efforts.

 

[seagypsy]

Who are the people who shape this "common interpretation of Islam"?

It is not unlikely that there are more, perhaps many more people like you, who are just months or few years away from renouncing their Islamic faith, but who nevertheless still consider themselves Muslims and expect others to consider them Muslims.
Then there are people who just formally stay or become Muslim, for non-religious reasons (such as socio-economic pressures), even though they've lost their faith long ago or never even had it; yet they consider themselves Muslims.

And these people, too, are shaping what then goes as the "common interpretation of Islam."
Such potential and undeclared apostates surely cannot rightfully be considered authorities on Islam or representative of Islam.
So I question how valid this "common interpretation of Islam" can be.

I don't disagree with you. Even though people who identify with being Muslim may not be true to the actual faith or even understand it correctly, identifying themselves as Muslim makes them responsible for creating the common interpretation of what Islam is. I don't deny that the Qur'an never says how many times a day one has to pray or how they are to pray but people who call themselves Muslims insist that prayer must happen 5 times a day and in a manner of ritualistic prostration and recitation of scripture while facing in the direction of the Kaaba. This is part of the common interpretation of the faith that is not actually in the Qur'an. However it is part of the faith to be scrutinized and examined because there is a consensus among the majority of Muslims that this is indeed correct practice of the faith along with many other aspects of the faith.

I have a friend who while in Pakistan he called himself Muslim because it kept him safe from hostility. He abstains from pork, he accepted an arranged marriage, and he dresses modestly and participates in many culturally valid activities that are Islamically based. But now that he is living in UK he is honest about his religious beliefs and calls himself agnostic (on the verge of atheism). As far as I know he never prayed Islamically even while in Pakistan unless he was cornered by friends and could not get out of it. But he considered his life to somewhat depend on the deception. Something you have pointed out. But as I said, now he is in UK and free to be honest and live as he chooses. He does not claim to be Muslim. However he still abstains from pork out of habit, loves his wife which was an arrangement, and still goes to culturally valid social gatherings that are based in Islam out of courtesy and respect for his friends.

So questioning the validity of common interpretation, well I understand where you are coming from and in regards to how I personally judge a religion I still judge the religion by its texts, but I define a religion by its texts while the majority of people tend to define things by how they see it acts. Stupid is as stupid does, Islam is as Islam does.

So while I don't necessarily agree that Islam is as horrible as the majority of non Muslims think it is, I have to acknowledge that what they are considering to be Islam may not be what I am considering Islam to be.

Kinda like the word puss. To me that word may mean cat, or female genitalia, but to a Swede I believe it means kiss.

Believers may invest a lot in their religiousness. The fact that they invest so much can make them biased into thinking that they invested wisely, genuinely, productively, that they figured out the truth of their religion.
As if to say, "I spend so many hours praying and studying scriptures etc., surely I now know what my religion is about."

It's not uncommon to find ex-believers who claim to be experts in matters of God and religion. Yet that expertise can be illusory, a result of their overestimating their past religious efforts.

Well I am claiming no expertise. I do have more intimate experience with Islam than the majority of the non-Muslim western world but EXPERT? hardly. And I think you have a valid point considering how many Christians don't know squat about what is in the bible, at least not first hand. Religion, by it's nature is passed down more through tradition than the actual writings of what is in the text. This happens due to illiteracy,laziness, and of course those in high religious positions of power claiming to have a direct line to teh almighty and divine guidance in interpreting texts most people are too lazy to read for themselves. Add to that the very personal aspect of religion in which for the most part, religion is unique from one person to the next but they conform to certain rules in order to maintain a sense of community.

Even married couples will give in to the desires of their mate to maintain cohesion in the relationship. For instance a wife who knows nothing about sports and couldn't care less may be willing to throw a super bowl party to please her football enthusiast of a husband. In my case, my husband occasionally accompanies me to a karaoke bar and does his best to not scream as if he is dying while listening to strangers sing as I wait my turn, he even claims to like my singing. I think at least sometimes he is telling the truth lol.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

In my case, my husband occasionally accompanies me to a karaoke bar and does his best to not scream as if he is dying while listening to strangers sing as I wait my turn, he even claims to like my singing. I think at least sometimes he is telling the truth lol.

You need to find another karaoke bar. The one we go to is run by the singer in a band and he has attracted quite a few really good singers. Some are retired performers; some perform in community theater; some sing in church; a couple are music teachers; many are like him, singers in bar bands, and they come to karaoke to try out a song and see how it goes over before going to the trouble of teaching it to the band.

So, many people come who would like to learn to sing better, knowing that the place is full of people who can coach them. (Almost no one, including some KJ's, knows that the karaoke software can raise or lower the key by three half-steps, which is often all it takes to put it in a more comfortable range where it will be easier to sing well.)

Sure, we get the folks who don't even realize that they can't sing, but okay everybody's there to have fun so we just applaud politely. We even suggest songs that might work a little better with their limited talent. All in all it's as much a workshop as a night out.

Some people come to entertain, some come because it's a little more fun than singing in the shower. We tend to get more of the former.

We have a lady who can sing "Crazy on You" and give ya goosebumps; hardly anyone can cover that song at all. There's a guy who does ONLY Prince and Michael Jackson, and you'd think you were there.

The people who sing in the community theater were in "Avenue Q" earlier this year. Now every time they show up we don't let them leave until they do "The Internet Is for Porn."

I've been told that I do a perfect Hank Williams, but I mostly cover girl singers. When I did Lucie Silvas's "Don't Look Back" one lady had trouble holding back her tears. She said, "How did you know what's going on between me and my boyfriend?"

 

[seagypsy]

You need to find another karaoke bar.

If I do that then I won't outshine all the other singers and Neverfly will realize I'm not all that great.

The one we go to is run by the singer in a band and he has attracted quite a few really good singers. Some are retired performers; some perform in community theater; some sing in church; a couple are music teachers; many are like him, singers in bar bands, and they come to karaoke to try out a song and see how it goes over before going to the trouble of teaching it to the band.

So, many people come who would like to learn to sing better, knowing that the place is full of people who can coach them. (Almost no one, including some KJ's, knows that the karaoke software can raise or lower the key by three half-steps, which is often all it takes to put it in a more comfortable range where it will be easier to sing well.)

I am a KJ and I know all about the software that does that. Trying to get my former boss to understand how to use it was nearly impossible. Yet he claimed I wasn't that good of a KJ. He didn't even know the software on his system could do that. Most of the customers loved me but he had a couple of rich customers who didn't want me there because I am straight and they accused me of insulting them and all kinds of stuff. I never got reprimanded for it or fired but it was annoying constantly having to defend yourself against lies.

Sure, we get the folks who don't even realize that they can't sing, but okay everybody's there to have fun so we just applaud politely. We even suggest songs that might work a little better with their limited talent. All in all it's as much a workshop as a night out.

Some people come to entertain, some come because it's a little more fun than singing in the shower. We tend to get more of the former.

We have a lady who can sing "Crazy on You" and give ya goosebumps; hardly anyone can cover that song at all. There's a guy who does ONLY Prince and Michael Jackson, and you'd think you were there.

The people who sing in the community theater were in "Avenue Q" earlier this year. Now every time they show up we don't let them leave until they do "The Internet Is for Porn."

I've been told that I do a perfect Hank Williams, but I mostly cover girl singers. When I did Lucie Silvas's "Don't Look Back" one lady had trouble holding back her tears. She said, "How did you know what's going on between me and my boyfriend?"

I usually do stuff by Cyndi Lauper, Madonna, No Doubt, Tina Turner, Joan Jett. Nothing that is real hard but not necessarily easy either. Tina Turner is probably the most challenging one I do and I usually get pretty good cheers on it, but I'm told I sound just like Cyndi when I cover her stuff.

Crap, what was the OP about again? Oh yeah, Islam, um... I didn't get to do karaoke when I was Muslim.

 

[Bowser]

I used to practice Islam according to the Qur'an but "Muslims" told me I was doing it wrong and insisted that I follow hadith. As much as I have defended Islam in many threads on the same grounds that you had asserted, I have recently stopped because the reality of definitions has shown itself to me that it is not always what is written in the pages of an official book, ie dictionary or religious text, that determines the meanings of words. Islam as defined by common usage of the word BY MUSLIMS is not a faith that is respectable. The common interpretation of the faith is what defines it. It's a hard pill to swallow and I did fight it in the past. But many may see I avoid defending Islam anymore. Because those who oppose it are correct. The common interpretation is all that is relevant. What Mohammed intended no longer matters. No one practices Islam according to the Qur'an or according to Mohammed's teachings. They find whatever excuses they can by twisting the texts, creating false hadiths, following hadith in general, ignoring the Qur'an, to justify their arrogant need to assert their supremacy over others and violently so. It is true of many if not most religions.

A true follower of the book? Now see, many in the West attribute the bad attitude to the Koran, yet you, having lived and walked the path, say it is the followers who insert their own message into the book. I find this to be very interesting. It's a take that I've never heard before.

 

[spidergoat]

A true follower of the book? Now see, many in the West attribute the bad attitude to the Koran, yet you, having lived and walked the path, say it is the followers who insert their own message into the book. I find this to be very interesting. It's a take that I've never heard before.

It's been like that from the beginning. No one knows what Mohammed really meant, it was all compiled from various sources including oral tradition many years after his death.

 

[seagypsy]

A true follower of the book? Now see, many in the West attribute the bad attitude to the Koran, yet you, having lived and walked the path, say it is the followers who insert their own message into the book. I find this to be very interesting. It's a take that I've never heard before.

When I converted to Islam I didn't know any Muslims personally, so I only had the Qur'an to go by. It wasn't until I contacted the Embassy of Saudi Arabia for information about Islam that I started getting told that the Qur'an was not sufficient enough of a source to practice Islam correctly. They sent me pamphlets and a 5lb box of dates with the Prince of Saudi's stamp on it. Do you have any idea how many dates is 5 lbs? What did they expect me to do with so many? As it turns out, according to tradition, you are supposed to break your fast by eating a date and having a sip of water during the month of Ramadan, when was approaching at the time.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Apparently Saudi Arabia has a thing for regularity :3.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

They sent me pamphlets and a 5lb box of dates with the Prince of Saudi's stamp on it. Do you have any idea how many dates is 5 lbs? What did they expect me to do with so many?

I love dates. I can easily eat 5lb in two months. Mrs. Fraggle makes date-nut bread for the holidays. They're an excellent source of potassium and, as noted, fiber, which many Americans and Europeans could stand a little more of in their diet. Of course in ancient times with their high sugar content they were simply a good source of calories.

I spent most of my life in Arizona and southern California, so we never had to eat imported dates. The Spaniards took one look at the climate and planted date trees there.

No one knows where the plant originated, but the earliest evidence of cultivation is in Pakistan, 7000BCE.

 

[quadraphonics]

I spent most of my life in Arizona and southern California, so we never had to eat imported dates. The Spaniards took one look at the climate and planted date trees there.

While it is true that the first date palms were introduced to the New World by Jesuit missionaries back in the 1700s, those were ornamental plants not cultivated for their fruit. The Medjool cultivars that are grown for fruit in the Coachella Valley (and nearby areas) were introduced by Arab immigrants in the early 20th century, after an engineering accident led to the creation of the Salton Sea and the subsequent development of Palm Springs and other towns in the area.

 

[seagypsy]

Well now you know how to get free Saudi dates. Just before Ramadan call the embassy of Saudi Arabia in Washington DC and tell them you want information about Islam and that you are thinking about converting or have recently converted. The other way is to sign up at hotsaudis.com....

 

[The Marquis]

A true follower of the book? Now see, many in the West attribute the bad attitude to the Koran, yet you, having lived and walked the path, say it is the followers who insert their own message into the book. I find this to be very interesting. It's a take that I've never heard before.

Really?

All one hears these days is people claiming they don't follow one faith or another because it doesn't gel with their own pattern of belief. Either that, or they claim that their own interpretation is correct and everyone else is full of it.

What you really need to do is take a look at how many of these 'true followers of the book" are only that because they happen to have an interpretation of it that coincides with your own. Or at least one you can understand.
Fact is, you can interpret any way you like, and one who interprets in a way which denotes peace and harmony doesn't represent "The Book" at all, because for every one of those there is another who can interpret it in a completely different manner.

The first step is understanding that there is no one interpretation which will work for everyone, and that everyone is gradually forming their own opinions of what god actually is.
The next step is understanding that because there are so many different interpretations, the original concept itself is called into question.

Social evolution is in a large part devoted to getting over this crap.

 

[seagypsy]

Really?

All one hears these days is people claiming they don't follow one faith or another because it doesn't gel with their own pattern of belief. Either that, or they claim that their own interpretation is correct and everyone else is full of it.

What you really need to do is take a look at how many of these 'true followers of the book" are only that because they happen to have an interpretation of it that coincides with your own. Or at least one you can understand.
Fact is, you can interpret any way you like, and one who interprets in a way which denotes peace and harmony doesn't represent "The Book" at all, because for every one of those there is another who can interpret it in a completely different manner.

The first step is understanding that there is no one interpretation which will work for everyone, and that everyone is gradually forming their own opinions of what god actually is.
The next step is understanding that because there are so many different interpretations, the original concept itself is called into question.

Social evolution is in a large part devoted to getting over this crap.

You have made some very good points here. The book exists in one's mind. It is rarely what is actually written in the pages of any physical book.

 

[wynn]

You have made some very good points here. The book exists in one's mind. It is rarely what is actually written in the pages of any physical book.

Then why talk about Islam, Muslims, or the Koran to begin with, and why claim they are somehow faulty?

 

[Bowser]

You have made some very good points here. The book exists in one's mind. It is rarely what is actually written in the pages of any physical book.

Yet we see passages that make us cringe... Forgive the source. How can we dispute their meaning as being anything else. Also, I'm certain we could find much of the same in the Bible.

 

[seagypsy]

Yet we see passages that make us cringe... Forgive the source. How can we dispute their meaning as being anything else. Also, I'm certain we could find much of the same in the Bible.

yeah your source is misquoting the Qur'an first of all. If you want to judge the actual words of the Qur'an, look at an actual Qur'an and not some journalists cut and paste manipulation of the text.

for instance your source says of Surah 2:190

"Slay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

When what Surah 2:190 actually says is :

Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

do you see how some very different interpretations can be made when the words are misrepresented by a biased agenda driven web site?

 

[Bowser]

yeah your source is misquoting the Qur'an first of all.

do you see how some very different interpretations can be made when the words are misrepresented by a biased agenda driven web site?

So, everything they have quoted on that site is a misrepresentation? I'm not about to invest time into studying the Koran. I don't have that much interest. But if you're telling me that it's all love and daisies...?