Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

Your reading of Afghan history seems rather short and selective to me. The rural areas there have been poor, fundamentalist and warlike for centuries, and so have consistently (and violently) defied all centralized authority. This fact was a central premise of British policy in the region, back in the day, and later directly led to the destabilization of the DRA (and so invited Soviet intervention) in the first place. The subsequent years have seen more fuel poured on the fire, but I don't see any basis in history for the idea that Afghanistan was a quiet, stable place that didn't pose problems for its neighbors, prior to the 1980's (or even prior to the 1900's).

Also, go and watch The VICE Guide to Travel, and you will quickly see how ridiculous the proposition that outside-supplied weapons are a determinant factor is. The Tribal Belt of Pakistan is the world capital of illicit small arms manufacture (not sales, but actual manufacture). It is a point of civic pride for them to have supplied the bulk of the small arms used by tribal fighters for the past century.

You seem to be trying way too hard to fit the reality of the situation into a reductive evil-foreigners-preying-on-harmless-locals narrative. The reality is vastly more complicated than that.

Also, it's curious that you refer to the "Muslim factions." I don't see what the particular religion of these people has to do with anything. Nor are they interchangeable with (or representative of) the vast numbers of other people who adhere to said religion. And they don't seem to refer to themselves in those terms in the first place. Other than a small number of AQ extremists, the militants there aren't fighting on behalf of "the Muslims," but for much more prosaic causes.

Likewise, there are "Muslim factions" among the ISAF: the Turkish deployment, for example.

You have fair comment Quad. On digging a little deeper, I think this issue is way more complex than I first thought. (understatement)

Just three comments.
1. The Soviets made bad worse.
2. The US invasion made worse seem good.
3. The US has a known record of black ops to achieve strategic agendas. (heaps of failures notwithstanding)
That would be the present Afgani view.

As to solutions, overtures to the Taliban regarding negotiations would be a fair starting point.
 
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No.

DH's eternal whine is about the bigotry that all the "kuffar" on the forum must inherently have because they dare question the integration of islam into politics which ends up being reactionary to some degree or another. How that translates into bigotry is beyond me. In the meantime, my comments concern that proportion of islam that feels the same way DH does; those that are, in fact, supremacists. His whinging defines "irony".

Please don't be absurd.

Thanks.

Being on the ground gives one a very different perspective from sitting at a PC.

There are certainly some bigoted posters on this forum and perhaps DH is frustrated at the lack of consideration for alternative views, such as his own. :)
 
Just two comments.
1. The Soviets made bad worse.
2. The US invasion made worse seem good.

That would be the present Afgani view.

The last I checked, the percentage of Afghans who think the country is headed in the right direction exceeds the percentage that think it's heading in the wrong direction. Neither is a majority opinion, since quite a few people aren't sure either way, but unless you have some other data I'm unaware of, I think you're going to far in presuming to speak for the Afghani people here.

http://asiafoundation.org/country/afghanistan/2008-poll.php

Likewise, a BBC/ABC poll showed that while less than half of Afghans view the US favorably, more than 90% view the Taliban unfavorably.

Many of these indicators have been trending downwards in the last couple of years, but none of them have reached the level of actual majority disapproval.

Also overtures to the Taliban regarding negotiations would be a fair starting point.

Sure, but let's not get attached to an image of the Taliban as representing the interests of Afghanistan. They have their own agenda, and it does not enjoy substantial popular support. It's important to establish security and calm, and if diplomacy contributes to that, so much the better, but there does not appear to be space for negotiating any kind of final settlement with the Taliban that would be acceptable to either the US or the Afghani people.
 
The last I checked, the percentage of Afghans who think the country is headed in the right direction exceeds the percentage that think it's heading in the wrong direction. Neither is a majority opinion, since quite a few people aren't sure either way, but unless you have some other data I'm unaware of, I think you're going to far in presuming to speak for the Afghani people here.

http://asiafoundation.org/country/afghanistan/2008-poll.php
This is comprehensive, I need to digest these a bit more, but they seem fair enough.

The Asia Foundation, a non-profit NGO based in San Fransisco. :)

Likewise, a BBC/ABC poll showed that while less than half of Afghans view the US favorably, more than 90% view the Taliban unfavorably.

OK.
Many of these indicators have been trending downwards in the last couple of years, but none of them have reached the level of actual majority disapproval.

Yes, I can see that.

Sure, but let's not get attached to an image of the Taliban as representing the interests of Afghanistan. They have their own agenda, and it does not enjoy substantial popular support. It's important to establish security and calm, and if diplomacy contributes to that, so much the better, but there does not appear to be space for negotiating any kind of final settlement with the Taliban that would be acceptable to either the US or the Afghani people.

Considering the influence the Taliban is exerting (whether we like it or not) they would have to be part of discussions and negotiations. I don`t see another way around this?
 
Considering the influence the Taliban is exerting (whether we like it or not) they would have to be part of discussions and negotiations. I don`t see another way around this?

Depends on where you are trying to go by getting around the Taliban's influence. If the goal is something that they find unacceptable, then there is nothing, ultimately, to negotiate over, and the goal of the strategy is to defeat their influence. This can be done through diplomacy (by splitting off the hard core Taliban from the rest, and so weakening and isolating the hold-outs), warfare, or any number of other channels.

On the other hand, if they're prepared to accept a solution that would meet the approval of the Afghan people and the international community, then it should be fairly easy to reach some kind of deal. But it does not appear that such is the case.
 
Since a muslim is a believer in Islam I don't see how you can make such a distinction and I think you know better than that.

Islam is an ideology. Ideologies are not arms and legs. People follow ideologies, but that does not make the ideology and the person one and the same. There is a clear distinction.

As far as religion is concerned I don't understand how an athiest can pretend to know anything of what it means to live within the tenets of any religion, how do you pretend to know what that means in reality?

One does not need to follow an ideology to understand they are separate from people.
 
phew!
for a moment i thought jamesr and bells had become imperialistic american propagandists

fortunately iceaura shut them down by leading them into the light

phew!!
 
Islam is an ideology. Ideologies are not arms and legs. People follow ideologies, but that does not make the ideology and the person one and the same. There is a clear distinction.



One does not need to follow an ideology to understand they are separate from people.


yes indeed
dying for god and country?
never gonna happen

there are people behind ideas
they do not exist in a vacuum as plato would lead you to believe
affinity to said ideas perhaps can be measured by the degrees of belief in them

this assumed distinction is blurry at best
even an aversion could be accompanied by an understanding......why people believe what they do
 
This can be done through diplomacy (by splitting off the hard core Taliban from the rest, and so weakening and isolating the hold-outs), warfare, or any number of other channels.


are you suggesting we fund the enemy so they can kill our boys?????
well, i never!!!!
 
Yes, this is all irrelevent. Islam would be opposed to the west no matter what, simply through it's own nature. It is anti-science, anti-democracy, anti-human rights, and anti-human nature at it's core, because it's anti-fun.

Some people are so brainwashed to the point were logic does not seem to have any influence to how they think regarding others.

Muslims are not anti-Western, this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. We are anti-occupation of our lands and against being exploited.

There is nothing is Islamic scriptures which you can use to back-up your claims. It is merely fear mongering of the worse kind. That fear mongering which leads to denouncing others as sub-human and justifying aggression against them.

Many Muslims themselves are Western. There is no dichotomy between Western and Muslim, only between the machinations of the Western elite in their foreign policies in the Muslim world and our defense of our freedom and independence from foreign control.

Why is this so difficult to believe?

It would serve better for you, and others like you to desist the ignorant and deceptive method of misrepresenting us and accept that our points may have some validity as well. Unless you can view the situation from a nation under the bombs and occupation, only then can you fully appreciate and entertain my perspective. If you cannot bring yourself to understand, that is fine, just don't attempt to say to define our own posts for us.

If at any moment anyone needs clarification on my posts, please ask me directly.
 
Just to point out a few things.

1. Afghans are not Arabs.

2. Arab does not equal Muslim.

3. Muslim does not equal fundamentalist.

4. Fundamentalist does not equal terrorist.

5. Westerners can be Muslims too!

All of the blurred distinctions are a lazy way to blame a group, race, society, religion or country for the acts of a few people.






I think you're right, in essence. The idea of an Islamic power to balance the Christian dominated West is one that appeals, and was the way the world was for around 1100 years. Perhaps such a balance would be useful again, though Islamic powers of their day were far less extreme than those today - another appealing idea.

absolutely right, many Bosnians are Muslim, fundamentalist Christians are pretty scary too
 
Being on the ground gives one a very different perspective from sitting at a PC.

Interesting. :) How are you "on the ground" and not at a PC yourself? Are you perhaps sitting on the connection cables? I don't think this counts.
 
Interesting. :) How are you "on the ground" and not at a PC yourself? Are you perhaps sitting on the connection cables? I don't think this counts.

1. On the ground as "in situ" - IN the conflict zone.
2. I was referring to DH. (with respect :))

The dreaded backwards Muslims are able to access the WWW. :)
 
As to solutions, overtures to the Taliban regarding negotiations would be a fair starting point.

Oh, no. This would more "proof" of American conspiracy...at least according to Arsalan. ;)

1. On the ground as "in situ" - IN the conflict zone.

I was referring to islamic politics, rather than any given conflict.

2. I was referring to DH. (with respect :))

The dreaded backwards Muslims are able to access the WWW. :)

O-kay. I don't follow you here.
 
Oh, no. This would more "proof" of American conspiracy...at least according to Arsalan. ;)



I was referring to islamic politics, rather than any given conflict.



O-kay. I don't follow you here.

Hi GeoffP

Not a big deal. A couple of wires crossed.

Do you think we can expect a publicly disclosed (as much as possible :)) outline of the US game plan for Afghanistan, indicating what the surge is intended to accomplish, and also beyond that, as to what the US is going to implement to achieve peace and stability?
 
oh please, I didnt say conspiracy, I said it was hilarious, after observing all this, to still believe the reasons that were given for us being there.
 
Some people are so brainwashed to the point were logic does not seem to have any influence to how they think regarding others...

I'm not talking about scriptures, it all looks relatively harmless on paper, I'm talking about Islam as it is practiced in reality. You wish to ignore valid criticism because in the hands of stupid people, it could lead to hatred. I too acknowledge that Muslims are innocent people deserving of protection, but that doesn't mean we should ignore what's going on. I don't hate them whatsoever, but I do have serious problems with their ideology, it is basically opposed to progress, because it presents itself as the perfect document to guide humantiy.

I could criticize the foriegn policy of various western nations too. Our foriegn policy has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
 
I'm not talking about scriptures, it all looks relatively harmless on paper, I'm talking about Islam as it is practiced in reality. You wish to ignore valid criticism because in the hands of stupid people, it could lead to hatred. I too acknowledge that Muslims are innocent people deserving of protection, but that doesn't mean we should ignore what's going on. I don't hate them whatsoever, but I do have serious problems with their ideology, it is basically opposed to progress, because it presents itself as the perfect document to guide humantiy.

I could criticize the foriegn policy of various western nations too. Our foriegn policy has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

What exactly IS "their" ideology?

And the huge Christian lobby pushing for teaching Creationism in US schools is somehow a better ideology? Along with the a religiously intolerant Christian ex President who stopped science in its tracks? And a Jewish ideology based on elitist and racist principles to the exclusion and oppression of goyim is somehow admirable?
 
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