Right, just look at Canada and Saudi Arabia.
Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread
- Thread starter kks
- Start date
Right, just look at Canada and Saudi Arabia.
What about the killing of foreign troops? Would that be the violence?
Then, we can probably ignore this as a wash on both sides.
And, what of the other parts? To focus primarily on the is somewhat biased.
The history of US geo-stategic meddling, and in particular here, the empowering, training and support of the Mujahideen during the Soviet era, is the root of the present problem. This is where the existing Muslim factions were further polarized and has led to the violence happening today. So, who is responsible?
To add to that, in fairness, the Soviet Union undoubtedly carried a fair portion of the blame. It seems if the foreigners could have kept their noses out of Afghanistan, the situation would have been way better.
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
Forget it SAM, you and I both know how posters like this one have a habit of misrepresenting the views of Muslim posters. I have been asking for proof numerous times concerning the supposed claims against me.
Neither is this one going to stop, nor is he going to provide any evidence to support his own twisted view of others.
Honestly, the moderators don't really care about discussion, they are just glad to see vile hatred against Muslims in this forum. Those who are level headed in this forum and denouncing this bigotry are also being denounced as pro-Muslim apologists.
If there is one thing we should know, this forum is packed full of the worst kind of racist, bigoted people this world can offer. Some of the moderators naturally will reflect that. The fact that you were removed as a moderator is ample proof.
Your reading of Afghan history seems rather short and selective to me. The rural areas there have been poor, fundamentalist and warlike for centuries, and so have consistently (and violently) defied all centralized authority. This fact was a central premise of British policy in the region, back in the day, and later directly led to the destabilization of the DRA (and so invited Soviet intervention) in the first place. The subsequent years have seen more fuel poured on the fire, but I don't see any basis in history for the idea that Afghanistan was a quiet, stable place that didn't pose problems for its neighbors, prior to the 1980's (or even prior to the 1900's).
Also, go and watch The VICE Guide to Travel, and you will quickly see how ridiculous the proposition that outside-supplied weapons are a determinant factor is. The Tribal Belt of Pakistan is the world capital of illicit small arms manufacture (not sales, but actual manufacture). It is a point of civic pride for them to have supplied the bulk of the small arms used by tribal fighters for the past century.
You seem to be trying way too hard to fit the reality of the situation into a reductive evil-foreigners-preying-on-harmless-locals narrative. The reality is vastly more complicated than that.
Also, it's curious that you refer to the "Muslim factions." I don't see what the particular religion of these people has to do with anything. Nor are they interchangeable with (or representative of) the vast numbers of other people who adhere to said religion. And they don't seem to refer to themselves in those terms in the first place. Other than a small number of AQ extremists, the militants there aren't fighting on behalf of "the Muslims," but for much more prosaic causes.
Likewise, there are "Muslim factions" among the ISAF: the Turkish deployment, for example.
Bells
Staff member
We know the reasons for going to war in Iraq was based on a fallacy. But what you are saying is that the US Government is funding the terrorists and the extremists to kill not only US soldiers, but to murder civilian Iraqis and Afghans. That is a big claim and one that needs direct proof that the US is currently funding their current enemy(s) to commit genocide and to kill their own troops and that of their allies. I am sure you understand the magnitude of what you are accusing the US Government of doing and why it needs to be substantiated and proven.
Maybe, maybe not. Instability in the Middle East also works against US interest because of one thing. Oil. They need stability to keep the oil flowing and exported smoothly. Instability puts a big dent in that, don't you think?
Of course they do. They have even blown each other up on occasion.
And those who commit such crimes are viewed as murderers and punished as such.
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
The claim the Afghanistan was poor, fundamentalist for centuries is completely wrong.
You need only go back in history to the democratic era in Afghanistan before the initial Russian invasion. The Afghanis are religious, but hardly fundamentalist. They have become hardened due to constant wars forced on them by outside powers. The Afghanis ruled Pakistan, Eastern Iran, and Northern India numerous times during their history. Furthermore, under Mughal patronage, Afghanis were rather wealthy and enjoyed a highly cultured lifestyle. It was only with the British invasion of India, and the subsequent manhunt and genocides against the Muslim population, that the Afghanis again took up arms to fight a foreign occupation force. At the same time they were fighting constant raids in the north by the Czar's Russian forces. Shah Wali-ullah's war against the combined forces of the Sikhs and the British was seen as the last great stand against British hegemony in the Northwest of the Indian subcontinent.
Because of their history, the Afghanis have developed a strong spirit of independence and of being warlike. The British attempted countless invasions of their territory but failed miserably. One such British raid of a couple thousand British redcoats ended with complete defeat by a brilliant ambush by the Afghanis, the Afghanis let one young British soldier run back to British occupied India to tell the story. The Czarist Russians didn't fare much better either. Only with India's support and the cold war against America, did Communist Russia entertain the absurd notion of invading Afghanistan and then Pakistan to establish control to the south seas. We all know how that story ended up.
You need only go back in history to the democratic era in Afghanistan before the initial Russian invasion. The Afghanis are religious, but hardly fundamentalist. They have become hardened due to constant wars forced on them by outside powers. The Afghanis ruled Pakistan, Eastern Iran, and Northern India numerous times during their history. Furthermore, under Mughal patronage, Afghanis were rather wealthy and enjoyed a highly cultured lifestyle. It was only with the British invasion of India, and the subsequent manhunt and genocides against the Muslim population, that the Afghanis again took up arms to fight a foreign occupation force. At the same time they were fighting constant raids in the north by the Czar's Russian forces. Shah Wali-ullah's war against the combined forces of the Sikhs and the British was seen as the last great stand against British hegemony in the Northwest of the Indian subcontinent.
Because of their history, the Afghanis have developed a strong spirit of independence and of being warlike. The British attempted countless invasions of their territory but failed miserably. One such British raid of a couple thousand British redcoats ended with complete defeat by a brilliant ambush by the Afghanis, the Afghanis let one young British soldier run back to British occupied India to tell the story. The Czarist Russians didn't fare much better either. Only with India's support and the cold war against America, did Communist Russia entertain the absurd notion of invading Afghanistan and then Pakistan to establish control to the south seas. We all know how that story ended up.
Not Afghanistan. Just the rural parts of it.
I did, and noticed that rural fundamentalist opposition to the policies of a relatively liberal central government were what created the crisis that precipitated Soviet intervention. Like I just explained in the post you are responding to.
It wasn't the invasions that failed, but the attempts to set up governance in their wakes. Nobody who cared to has ever had much of a problem invading Afghanistan. It's governing the place that is difficult.
Again, the invasion part of the plan wasn't absurd at all, and went over without much problem. It was - again - the attempt to control the place after the invasion that proved problematic. Although if it were simply a matter of Afghanistan, they probably could have stuck it out indefinitely, ruthless as they were. But when other powers start pumping in support (and Stinger missiles), the story changes...
Not always. Sometimes they are freed and rewarded.
http://www.rawa.org/events/sevenyear_e.htm
What does this sound like?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Baron: Isn't it interesting .....that the USA is so powerful that it can cause whole nations to fall into dire poverty and militant violence with just a few policies from the government? ...even while all those people hate the USA? Wow, we're pretty damned powerful, ain't we? I take that to mean, conversely, if we just change a policy or two, we can turn those nations into wealthy, powerful nations ....with just a change in policies? Wow, we're damned powerful, ain't we?
Baron you know better than that I should hope! This isn't an issue of change policy and then these countries become 'wealthy' or 'powerful' no, it's a matter of allowing these countries to self-determine without interference. Unless you are completely naive about western especially U.S foreign policy we do cause nations to fall into dire poverty and violence with our policies, for an example of the former just look at the history of Iraq for the latter just look at vietnam.
Baron you know better than that I should hope! This isn't an issue of change policy and then these countries become 'wealthy' or 'powerful' no, it's a matter of allowing these countries to self-determine without interference. Unless you are completely naive about western especially U.S foreign policy we do cause nations to fall into dire poverty and violence with our policies, for an example of the former just look at the history of Iraq for the latter just look at vietnam.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Baron how can you dive into this middle-east, muslim quagmire and completely ignore the incompetence of the U.S regarding these issues? Outside of Africa I cannot think of any part of the world that has been as manipulated by foreign western forces than the arab/muslim world. For you to deny this is to deny history itself
Baron: Don't need the history, we can see how Muslims are killing other Muslims in Muslim lands ....it happens every single day!! More Muslims are killed by other Muslims than all of those killed by westerners. Yet you and SAM defend those killers ....just because they're Muslims.
Okay Baron the U.S pre-emptive war in Iraq alone has caused approximately 99,500 civilian deaths since 2003. Are you saying that Muslims are killing each other all over the muslim world in those amounts? Do you realize how red-necky your argument sounds?
Baron: Look at Pakistan today ....Muslims rioting, smashing cars, smashing shops, burning buildings, ...., all because they don't like something!
And Americans displayed the same behaviour during Katrina when they should have been helping each other and themselves! Are you able to articulate what it is that the pakistani's don't like? Do you know enough about their politics to speak of their internal affairs with any confidence? What don't they like?
Baron: The Muslims are great at taking the law into their own hands ...disregarding not only the laws of their own society, but disregarding the laws of the Quran by killing their own people.
Thou shalt not kill Mr. Bush! Thou Shalt Not Kill Mr. Sharon! International law does not allow for land siezure nor pre-emptive attacks on nations that were not transgressors! Oh I forgot, maybe this religous law doesn't extend to other human beings that don't belong to your tribe, religion or nation.
Baron: Muslims are about 300 years behind westerners! I'd say that's about right, wouldn't you?
You're from Texas right? Well I wish you could leave the trailer for some time board Qatar airlines and visit Dubai...it would make you cry right on top of your freedom fries! Having just come from a visit to UAE their sense of hospitality and civility makes the average american look like a bloody barbarian! And no I will not apologize!
Baron: Don't need the history, we can see how Muslims are killing other Muslims in Muslim lands ....it happens every single day!! More Muslims are killed by other Muslims than all of those killed by westerners. Yet you and SAM defend those killers ....just because they're Muslims.
Okay Baron the U.S pre-emptive war in Iraq alone has caused approximately 99,500 civilian deaths since 2003. Are you saying that Muslims are killing each other all over the muslim world in those amounts? Do you realize how red-necky your argument sounds?
Baron: Look at Pakistan today ....Muslims rioting, smashing cars, smashing shops, burning buildings, ...., all because they don't like something!
And Americans displayed the same behaviour during Katrina when they should have been helping each other and themselves! Are you able to articulate what it is that the pakistani's don't like? Do you know enough about their politics to speak of their internal affairs with any confidence? What don't they like?
Baron: The Muslims are great at taking the law into their own hands ...disregarding not only the laws of their own society, but disregarding the laws of the Quran by killing their own people.
Thou shalt not kill Mr. Bush! Thou Shalt Not Kill Mr. Sharon! International law does not allow for land siezure nor pre-emptive attacks on nations that were not transgressors! Oh I forgot, maybe this religous law doesn't extend to other human beings that don't belong to your tribe, religion or nation.
Baron: Muslims are about 300 years behind westerners! I'd say that's about right, wouldn't you?
You're from Texas right? Well I wish you could leave the trailer for some time board Qatar airlines and visit Dubai...it would make you cry right on top of your freedom fries! Having just come from a visit to UAE their sense of hospitality and civility makes the average american look like a bloody barbarian! And no I will not apologize!
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Q:Yes, but they're just hypocrites, aren't they? They pretend to be Muslim or Catholic or some other bowling team, but don't really hold any of the tenets, or will interpret a few tenets to suit their agendas.
As an athiest I don't see how you can make such an assessment. I am not religious in any fashion so I don't try and gage a believer's devotion. Its a little presumptuous of you to assume you know who is 'pretending' and who isn't it?
Q:No, they won't address their own problems. They've had 14 centuries to do so and their state of affairs is worse than ever. They'll blame the US, much like you do, for all their problems never once thinking about it, but instead will turn to their holy book to find the answers. And, what does their holy book say about it? Go to war and fight for your god.
Who are 'they'? And what do you know of their problems? What is it to you if they address their internal problems or not? 14 centuries you say? What problems do you think they have needed to address for 14 centuries? Careful now Q we are referring to more than one civilization here and a lot has gone on in 14 centuries!
And what do the other holy books say in the occidental tradition? If you look into the old testament, also known as the bible, god's people are also told to go and fight for their god by commandment. Jews, muslims and christians all belong to that same tradition Q so why place the warrior distinction on the muslims alone? The hypocrisy is your isolation of criticism of one group as opposed to all others. You are constantly saying that you are speaking of Islam and muslims (which is impossible to distinguish!) that its the ideology you are against. Well if this is true then you must judge ALL occidental ideologies including christianity and judaism by the same yard stick. If you are upset at the taliban tearing down buddhist artifacts that speak of a different tradition remember this biblical quote: "Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces," God commanded. (Deuteronomy 23:24 NIV) This same book also tells Joshua to go into Canaan and exterminate all the people women and children included and take the land. Western religions are war religions period dont simply blame Islam for an attitude that exists within all three traditions.
As an athiest I don't see how you can make such an assessment. I am not religious in any fashion so I don't try and gage a believer's devotion. Its a little presumptuous of you to assume you know who is 'pretending' and who isn't it?
Q:No, they won't address their own problems. They've had 14 centuries to do so and their state of affairs is worse than ever. They'll blame the US, much like you do, for all their problems never once thinking about it, but instead will turn to their holy book to find the answers. And, what does their holy book say about it? Go to war and fight for your god.
Who are 'they'? And what do you know of their problems? What is it to you if they address their internal problems or not? 14 centuries you say? What problems do you think they have needed to address for 14 centuries? Careful now Q we are referring to more than one civilization here and a lot has gone on in 14 centuries!
And what do the other holy books say in the occidental tradition? If you look into the old testament, also known as the bible, god's people are also told to go and fight for their god by commandment. Jews, muslims and christians all belong to that same tradition Q so why place the warrior distinction on the muslims alone? The hypocrisy is your isolation of criticism of one group as opposed to all others. You are constantly saying that you are speaking of Islam and muslims (which is impossible to distinguish!) that its the ideology you are against. Well if this is true then you must judge ALL occidental ideologies including christianity and judaism by the same yard stick. If you are upset at the taliban tearing down buddhist artifacts that speak of a different tradition remember this biblical quote: "Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces," God commanded. (Deuteronomy 23:24 NIV) This same book also tells Joshua to go into Canaan and exterminate all the people women and children included and take the land. Western religions are war religions period dont simply blame Islam for an attitude that exists within all three traditions.
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And of killing each other regularly and viciously. And, voila', they're still doing it today ...in the 21st century while the rest of the world lives under the rule of law.
Baron Max
Like the Sudan and the Darfur region of Africa? The world should just stand by and let the people of Darfur be slaughtered ....and do nothing?
That's a nice catch-phrase that everyone uses, Lucy. Now since you're obviously much smarter than all those others, please tell me which US foriegn policy(-ies) did what to which nation of the world and when.
And please, be specific about the policy ....another wild accusation is not citing the particular "policy" of the US government. WHICH POLICY?!
Baron Max
I would comment, but quadrophonics said it quite nicely.
Nothing presumptuous at all, you either follow the tenets of your religion or you don't.
I don't, all three of the Abrahamic religions are detestable and I make no distinction of one over the other.
The distinction is simple, one is a people while the other is an ideology.
I haven't. But, in order to remain on topic within a thread, I don't talk about Christianity when the thread is dealing with Islam.