Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

[GeoffP]

You know, it's amusing to watch Sam scrape and whine about imaginary bigotry, while defending "Haircut" DH (an actual bigot) and lumping all Americans together, which I don't do.

How odd. Or not.

 

[GeoffP]

Do you think the US is paying the extremists they are currently fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, to kill innocent civilians?

Yes. She does.

 

[GeoffP]

And there we are.

 

[Bells]

Is there any other kind?

Any other kind of what? Extremists? Civilians?

Your claim is quite, well, out there. You are basically saying that the US is paying the extremists they are currently fighting against to kill innocent civilians.

 

[S.A.M.]

Do you think the US is paying the extremists they are currently fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, to kill innocent civilians?

Is there any other kind? They constantly uphold Anbar as a success story. It was the ethnic cleansing of Shias by Baathist supporters and the US now occupies the homes of Shias who were killed or have fled.

If the KKK was armed by an external country and decimated a black neighborhood, what would you call it?

 

[GeoffP]

That's odd. You don't seem to care when other religious minorities get run out over there.

 

[S.A.M.]

Any other kind of what? Extremists? Civilians?

Your claim is quite, well, out there. You are basically saying that the US is paying the extremists they are currently fighting against to kill innocent civilians.

Pretty much. Can you name a single country in the Middle East where the US does not support, fund and arm extremists who have killed civilians?

The evidence speaks for itself:

Thirteen of the top 25 U.S. arms recipients in the developing world in 2006/07 were either undemocratic governments or regimes guilty of major ongoing human rights abuses

http://www.newamerica.net/publications/policy/u_s_weapons_war_2008_0

 

[GeoffP]

Those are regimes, not terrorist organizations. Different story. Nice try.

 

[S.A.M.]

Whatever:

IRAQ:

Last summer American military commanders spent millions of dollars on "concerned local citizens" programs—essentially paying off tribal sheiks to keep their followers from planting roadside bombs. In Tikrit's Salah Ad Din province, the Army has spent more than $5 million to buy the loyalty of 26 different sheiks. (Kanan is not among them, although another sheik from the same family is.) With Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's central government weaker than ever—unable to provide basic services even to Baghdad—power brokers in the provinces are enjoying something of a renaissance. That's fine with Kanan al-Sadid. "We have to get rid of central control," he says, exhaling a cloud of French-cigarette smoke.

Yet "government from the bottom up" is not without risks. Critics say empowering regional strongmen is creating a warlord state in Iraq, with tribal and religious leaders operating increasingly independently—and often unconstitutionally. At best, the breakdown into local fiefdoms is not necessarily consistent with political reconciliation at the center, the strategic goal of U.S. diplomats. At worst, power struggles among local leaders—particularly in the southern Shiite heartland—could erupt into all-out civil war.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/42453

AFGHANISTAN:

Afghanistan's ambassador to the US, Said Jawad, has said a US-backed plan to form local tribal groups to help combat the insurgency is very risky.

The US hopes groups similar to those that have had success in Iraq will counter the growing insurgency and the lack of security forces.

But Mr Jawad told the BBC the plan could backfire.

He said it could undermine state institutions and actually strengthen warlords and criminals.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7828611.stm

PAKISTAN:

TIn a key finding of an investigative study by the Washington-based organization that does investigative reporting and research on significant public issues Center for Public Integrity, the U.S. military aid to Pakistan soared to $4.2 billion after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack compared to $9.1 million in the three years before the attack boosting Pakistan to the top tier of countries receiving military funding.
http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/5126

SOMALIA:

The Bush administration is helping empower the very same warlords that were responsible for the "Black Hawk Down" fiasco in Mogadishu and the deaths of eighteen American soldiers.

As Chris Floyd points out, "The attack also openly allies the United States with repressive dictatorship of Ethiopia, whose troops – trained and supplied by the Americans already – invaded Somalia to join with the local warlords in ousting the Islamic movement that had taken control of the country after more than 15 years of violent anarchy."

The disgusting irony of this is lost on jingoistic cheerleaders for war on Fox News and talk radio, who are applauding the air strikes under the banner of finding and destroying America's enemies, when in reality the Bush administration is aiding the very same thugs that butchered and humiliated U.S. troops fourteen years ago, dragging them around the streets in celebration

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/110107empowerswarlords.htm

 

[GeoffP]

Sam, I have to consider the messenger: you'd criticize no matter what kind of military aid was being provided. If it was to the central administrations of these nations (those that have them), then you would claim the people were being oppressed because they were muslim. If aid is provided to the tribal groups themselves, you claim (as you do here) that the US is funding terror. Now, I agree completely that all arms shipments of all kinds should immediately end, but do you at the least see your own hypocrisy?

 

[S.A.M.]

Hypocrisy? You mean like the success of Anbar?

Iraqi Crisis Report
Iraq home
Anbar’s Displaced Stay Away
Arab Kurdish

Shia families forced to leave Sunni-majority province remain reluctant to return.

By Basim al-Shara in Baghdad (ICR No. 272, 7-Oct-08)
Jabbar Salman, 47, lives with his four family members in a small house in the al-Rashad neighborhood close to the largely Shia Sadr City, an east Baghdad suburb.

They have been there since they were forced to flee their spacious home in Anbar province, in western Iraq, in February 2006.

According to Salman, gunmen besieged his house, ordering him and his family to leave within three hours or they would be killed.

“Some of the gunmen were my neighbours. They allowed us to carry our personal things only; we were concerned about our lives rather than about our property,” he said.

While Salman is upset that he has to live in cramped conditions, he said he cannot go back to Anbar. “I won’t return because I fear members of my family might be killed by the Sahawat,” he said.

Sahawat is a reference to awakening councils – made up of members of Sunni tribes who allied with the Americans after turning their backs on al-Qaeda.

He says that despite the loss of his house, he feels comfortable among members of his immediate and extended family, “I live in Sadr City close to my brothers and relatives – this is my utmost relief.”

Salman explained that all his relatives in Anbar were expelled in 2006 and 2007. He said they all chose to go to Sadr City because they had originally lived there, and because the security was better compared to other places in Baghdad.

“I decided to sell my house to permanently settle in Sadr City, because I can no longer live with Sunni,” he said.

On September 1, American forces handed control of Anbar back to the Iraqis.

http://www.iwpr.net/?p=icr&s=f&o=347025&apc_state=henh

I imagine the displaced Iraqis have quite a different view of the American "success" story which they want to "replicate" in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The surge worked!!! Hallelujah!!! Ethnic cleansing works to bring peace!!!!

 

[John99]

SAM the link machine. 24 hour SAM supported links.

 

[S.A.M.]

Can we expect to see the Americans replicating this success story at home? Will they now start arming and funding extremists and criminals to bring peace in society? Can the drug cartels and school shooters look forward to an arms bolus? :runaway:

Everytime I read about the Anbar "success story" I want to :splat:

 

[John99]

...look forward to an arms bolus? :runaway:

splat:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bolus

 

[GeoffP]

Hypocrisy? You mean like the success of Anbar?

No, Sam. We're dealing with your own here.

As I was saying: whether the assistance were top-down or bottom-up, you would still criticize it. The same goes here actually for the Shias and Sunnis: you don't mind other religious minorities (Jews in particular) from being forced out of their lands, but you do mind it if it's your co-religionists. You'd actually said as much on other occasions; it seems to be fitting in with your newfound paranoia about people having secret meetings about you and all that. Meanwhile, you slander other people - or particularly me - with the label of "bigot". Do you see how you're a hypocrite?

 

[S.A.M.]

No, Sam. We're dealing with your own here.

As I was saying: whether the assistance were top-down or bottom-up, you would still criticize it. The same goes here actually for the Shias and Sunnis: you don't mind other religious minorities (Jews in particular) from being forced out of their lands, but you do mind it if it's your co-religionists. You'd actually said as much on other occasions; it seems to be fitting in with your newfound paranoia about people having secret meetings about you and all that. Meanwhile, you slander other people - or particularly me - with the label of "bigot". Do you see how you're a hypocrite?

Reported

Feel free to support your allegations with actual quotes by me.

 

[Bells]

Pretty much. Can you name a single country in the Middle East where the US does not support, fund and arm extremists who have killed civilians?

The evidence speaks for itself:

Are the extremists/terrorists currently operating in Iraq and Afghanistan, who are murdering innocent civilians, paid by the US? You have cited Governments and regimes, but do you think the current terrorists and extremists are Governments and regimes?

I understand what you are saying about the US and other Western countries providing financial and military support to regimes and Governments who are guilty of gross human rights abuses. But this is different.

 

[GeoffP]

But why should I bother to hunt through 54k posts for something you'll just edit or deny anyway? I know I'm honest. Those who read what I write know I'm honest, whether they agree with me or not. Why should I bother, Sam?

We can settle it right here then: do you agree that if minorities living in the Middle East are being oppressed by the dominant groups around them, that they should leave? "Love it or leave it"? Answer up and all will be forgiven.

 

[S.A.M.]

Are the extremists/terrorists currently operating in Iraq and Afghanistan, who are murdering innocent civilians, paid by the US? You have cited Governments and regimes, but do you think the current terrorists and extremists are Governments and regimes?

I understand what you are saying about the US and other Western countries providing financial and military support to regimes and Governments who are guilty of gross human rights abuses. But this is different.

Sure. Its not a secret. The Sahawat, touted as a success story, was armed and funded by the US. So was Saddam. After he killed the Kurds.

So were the warlords in Afghanistan.

But amid a well-coordinated assassination attempt on Afghan President Hamid Karzai and large-scale bombings last week in the capitals of both Afghanistan and Pakistan, U.S. forces are keenly aware that they are facing an increasingly complex enemy here—what U.S. military officials now call a syndicate—composed not only of Taliban fighters but also powerful warlords who were once on the payroll of the Central Intelligence Agency. "You could almost describe the insurgency as having two branches," says a senior U.S. military official here. "It's the Taliban in the south and a 'rainbow coalition' in the east."

Indeed, along with a smattering of Afghan tribal groups, Pakistani extremists, and drug kingpins, two of the most dangerous players are violent Afghan Islamists named Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and Jalaluddin Haqqani, according to U.S. officials. In recent weeks, Hekmatyar has called upon Pakistani militants to attack U.S. targets, while the Haqqani network is blamed for three large vehicle bombings, along with the attempted assassination of Karzai in April.

Ironically, these two warlords—currently at the top of America's list of most wanted men in Afghanistan—were once among America's most valued allies. In the 1980s, the CIA funneled hundreds of millions of dollars in weapons and ammunition to help them battle the Soviet Army during its occupation of Afghanistan. Hekmatyar, then widely considered by Washington to be a reliable anti-Soviet rebel, was even flown to the United States by the CIA in 1985.

http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/200...a-now-turn-their-guns-on-u-s-troops_8350.html

 

[S.A.M.]

But why should I bother to hunt through 54k posts for something you'll just edit or deny anyway? I know I'm honest. Those who read what I write know I'm honest, whether they agree with me or not. Why should I bother, Sam?

We can settle it right here then: do you agree that if minorities living in the Middle East are being oppressed by the dominant groups around them, that they should leave? "Love it or leave it"? Answer up and all will be forgiven.

Its your allegation. You support it. I'm not interested insaying anything to someone who makes specious allegations and is then unwilling to back them up.

Put up or shut up

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=91428