Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

[Baron Max]

Not as old as it gets hearing about how the Muslims should apologise for the Sauds.

I don't think anyone is asking anyone to apologize. We are asking that the Muslims forget things that transpired decades ago, between ancestors of the past. But, see, Muslims can't do that, can they! That's why many people say that Islam is the religion of the blood feud, of revenge.

Baron Max

 

[(Q)]

1. The VAST majority of Muslims are peaceful and WANT peace. Extremism rears its head in EVERY society.

Does it? If Muslims want peace so bad, why do they riot in the streets over a cartoon depiction, yet their silence is deafening when it comes to Muslim extremism?

2. There are VALID and legitimate reasons for Muslim resistance.

I've heard cartoon depictions to apostasy and everything in between seems to incite Muslim resistance.

4. And importantly, given the FACT that you most likely live in relative comfort, and you are well fed and watered, in the cotton wool world of Hollywood/USA make believe, you can not possibly have any REAL understanding or EMPATHY for the plight of the average Muslim trapped in the constant onslaught of imperialist warfare.

And, that average Muslim would be you? Or, do your own words refer to your position as well?

 

[S.A.M.]

I think the term is unintended consequences. When you fund and arm extremists for a century, is it so surprising when the eventual blowback comes back to bite you in the arse?

Why should Muslims apologise for some dumb hicks with colonial aspirations funding other dumb hicks with imperial ones?

 

[Baron Max]

I think the term is unintended consequences. When you fund and arm extremists for a century, is it so surprising when the eventual blowback comes back to bite you in the arse?

No with any people except Muslims!

SAM, you simply must face facts, the realism of the situation in the world today .....Islam is a religion of revenge, of the blood feud. Islam excepts no law other than from the barrel of a gun or the blade of a knife.

Muslims want revenge for things that happened decades, centuries ago!! This is the 21st century! The world is governed by laws and courts, not through the power of the gun!

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

The world is governed by laws and courts, not through the power of the gun!

Who are you and what have you done with the Baron?

 

[iceaura]

Now you're reaching.

No, it's no reach. There were tens of thousands of those soldiers enslaved, mostly as children, over the centuries of the Ottoman empire.

More generalisations, which assume that all servants and employees of a kingdom are forced into service.

We are talking about slaves - people who are bought and sold for money, captured and put to work. Your slave Sultan, the founder of the Maluks - enslaved as a child by force, sold two or three times. He was forced into service.

In America the plantation slaves were often paid. So what ?

Look it up. The Sauds under the influence of Abdul Wahab, destroyed much of Mecca Medina and other historical sites. Since the al Rashids cooperated with the Ottomans, the Ottomans helped them out by crushing the al Sauds, as best as they could

Relevance? My point was that the entire scene was and is medieval, and long before the Brits weighed in.

Not as old as it gets hearing about how the Muslims should apologise for the Sauds.

The central and single most influential Islamic state is going to be mentioned once in a while.

 

[DiamondHearts]

So the occupations of Iraq, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, and Somalia were a hundred years ago? I suggest you look again as these conflicts are still going on.

It is important to realize this conflict has a historical basis, but it is not limited to that. It is also based on modern concerns.

The issues still stand, regardless if the oppressed are Muslims or Non-Muslims, injustice can never be tolerated. It nullifies all supposed pursuit of freedom and democracy which the US espouses. What you fail to see if that these concerns are political in nature, and not necessarily religious. Therefore the religion of the people doesn't matter, any people in a similar position would oppose occupation.

Where Islam comes in is the demonization of Islam and Islamic civilization in the West, this is when it is viewed as a war on Islam, not merely against Muslim people.

Take a little time to think and analyze my response before your next answer.

 

[Baron Max]

Who are you and what have you done with the Baron?

If the Afghanis and the Iraqis were fighting like men, I'd be far less derogatory toward them. But the Muslims in those countries are NOT fighting like men ...they fight from behind women and children, they murder their own people, they slink like snakes back into the homes of women and children, hiding from any kind of real fight. I can't, and I know many others can't abide that kind of cowardice in fighting an enemy.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Been there, have you? You'd probably find a lot more in common with the Afghanis, they can't abide fighting with cowards who bomb their children from the air either.

 

[Baron Max]

It is important to realize this conflict has a historical basis, but it is not limited to that. It is also based on modern concerns.

The issues still stand, regardless if the oppressed are Muslims or Non-Muslims, injustice can never be tolerated.

Then take it to court! Personal revenge is the only thing that Muslims seem to know ....they seem to know nothing about the law and courts! This is the 21st Century ....and the Muslims are living in the 18th century!!

Muslims are killing other Muslims at astonishing rates, yet neither you nor SAM seem at all concerned. Why? Is it really that easy to simply blame others for that horrible condition?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

Been there, have you? You'd probably find a lot more in common with the Afghanis, they can't abide fighting with cowards who bomb their children from the air either.

So that excuses the Afghanis when they blow up innocent Muslim women and children? Ditto for the Iraqis?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Considering neither was doing that until the Americans arrived, thats a specious question don't you think?

 

[Baron Max]

Considering neither was doing that until the Americans arrived, thats a specious question don't you think?

Doesn't matter, SAM, it's stil Muslims killing other Muslims. And apparently you and DH really like that and seem happy about it even.

Baron Max

 

[(Q)]

Where Islam comes in is the demonization of Islam and Islamic civilization in the West, this is when it is viewed as a war on Islam, not merely against Muslim people.

Criticizing Islam incites war. Why not just say that in the first place?

 

[Baron Max]

Criticizing Islam incites war. Why not just say that in the first place?

I don't know about DH, but I've been saying it all along ....Muslims seek personal revenge for whatever they feel they don't like.

Revenge is mine, sayeth the Muslims of the world!

Baron Max

 

[DiamondHearts]

While constant aerial bombing by cowardly Americans and US-backed sectarian militas in Iraq are destroying the infrastructure of the two countries, naturally those criminals and thugs who use violence against civilians for political means thrive in such an environment. As this bombing is done by unknown assailants, the American media states that it is always Alkaeda, yet there is never proof for this. I even believe that Alkaeda is a bogeyman for blanket blame against legitimate resistance groups. Supposedly this hitherto unknown group is responsible for every act of violence or resistance against Western armies from Morocco to Indonesia. This is never corroborated with evidence. It is always mere speculation. Why would a group, which supposedly represents Muslim interests attack them? Doesn't this go fully against opposite to this goal? Why would it tarnish the legitimate resistance by attempting to increase anger at it?

Realistically, Alkaeda may not even exist. It may as well be a fictional organization, establish to further American hegemonic claims to the Middle East. To even prove its existence requires evidence. Giving a carte blanche to American government and media to invent whatever possible story they wish, without asking for concrete evidence, is unfortunately a symptom of a society which is increasingly being used by its elite for political aims.

 

[S.A.M.]

Al Qaeda is the Bogeyman. Everyone, everywhere is al Qaeda. Nameless, faceless and having no concrete reality.

 

[Baron Max]

.... Why would a group, which supposedly represents Muslim interests attack them?

I've asked the same question. But you and SAM defend all of those acts of Muslim violence against other Muslims as a resistance effort against the Americans.

Hey, you're Muslim, you tell me why Muslims cheer when a Muslim blows up other Muslims.

You might also tell me why you and SAM defend those same Muslims. I've been wanting to hear about that for a long time.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

Al Qaeda is the Bogeyman. Everyone, everywhere is al Qaeda. Nameless, faceless and having no concrete reality.

Well, all of the Muslims being killed by other Muslims seems pretty concrete to me. More Muslims are killed by other Muslims than all the others combined!

So tell me, SAM, why do you defend those same Muslim terrorists by making claims that it's "resistance" to the "occupation"???

Baron Max

 

[StrawDog]

Perhaps. And yet you're here defending many/most of the acts of willful violence against fellow Muslims BY Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq. It must mean that you're not one of the Muslims that wants peace, huh?

No. I want peace and justice. I am a pacifist, who has (some) understanding of the dynamics and injustices.

Agreed. But the Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq are not resisting the US/UN forces ....if they're busy blowing up innocent women and children in a public marketplaces! They've even taken the fight into Pakistan! How is that possibly called "resistance"???

It is most regrettable. The destabilization caused by the invasions has obviously played into the hands of certain parties. The responsibility for a LARGE part of the violence, lies at the feet of the invaders. That is undeniable. Your average Afghani and Iraqi family just want to get on with life. Its time to sort this situation out.

The constant warfare is instigated by the Muslim fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq. If they were to stop killing other Muslims, the US/UN would leave. The US/UN are NOT occupation forces ...everyone knows that except the militant Muslims who prefer to fight and kill other Muslims anyway. In fact, the Afghan Muslims have been killing other Aghan Muslims for thousands of years! They must like it!!

They are certainly seen as occupation forces, whatever your perspective may be. Once again, particularly in Iraq under Hussein, there was little violence compared to today. Casualty estimates tops a million.

Furthermore Obama is tacitly admitting this, and the mistake made by Bush by initiating troop withdrawal.