Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

[StrawDog]

Does it? If Muslims want peace so bad, why do they riot in the streets over a cartoon depiction, yet their silence is deafening when it comes to Muslim extremism?

What seems silly and pathetic to you (on the surface, and understandably so) is part of the tenets of Islam, and part of faith spanning 1500 years. You are not expected to understand it, but at the very least one can expect basic respect for what is sacred to Islam. Thus the rioting. Note that Christian monks are forever fighting amongst themselves in Jerusalem. It makes little sense to outsiders.

I've heard cartoon depictions to apostasy and everything in between seems to incite Muslim resistance.

See above. Of course, why play with fire given the know outcomes? Ego? Arrogance? Disrespect?

And, that average Muslim would be you? Or, do your own words refer to your position as well?

No my friend, the average Muslim is just one of about 1.4 billion. From that perspective you can count the extremists on one hand.

 

[Baron Max]

No. I want peace and justice. I am a pacifist, who has (some) understanding of the dynamics and injustices.

Understanding? No, you've been defending the Muslims killing Muslims! Now you're trying to make it like it's "injustice"???? And in the latter part of your post, you're still laying blame!

It is most regrettable. The destabilization caused by the invasions has obviously played into the hands of certain parties. The responsibility for a LARGE part of the violence, lies at the feet of the invaders. That is undeniable.

Still placing blame?! But look at what you're saying ....that the Americans can make Muslims kill other Muslims at great rates. Now think about it, doesn't that make Muslims seem like the most easily manipulated people on Earth?!

Your average Afghani and Iraqi family just want to get on with life.

Yet they do nothing while their friends, families are being murdered by other Muslims. In fact, quite the contrary, it often seems that they're cheering such murder of innocents.

You can place the blame on the west or the USA if you want, but all it really does is show how fuckin' stupid the Afghans and Iraqis really are. Not to mention how vengeful and vindictive and easily manipulated.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

Note that Christian monks are forever fighting amongst themselves in Jerusalem. It makes little sense to outsiders.

How many of them carry out suicide bombings of other innocent people because of those differences? NONE!

But Muslims do it as a matter of normal course of life. Something wrong here, DH.

No my friend, the average Muslim is just one of about 1.4 billion. From that perspective you can count the extremists on one hand.

Yeah, sure. But while those few Muslim extremists blow up people, the other 1.4 million cheer in the streets yelling "Down with the great Satan!" and "Allah Akbar!" See? Muslims seem to love violence against other Muslims.

Baron Max

 

[copernicus66]

Considering neither was doing that until the Americans arrived, thats a specious question don't you think?

My wife didn't have a black eye until she burnt my steak.

 

[S.A.M.]

So why does the Baron ignore the US army sitting in their countries? Or the fact that none of them were blowing themselves up before the US got there? Not once in the last 1400 years?

And now wherever Americans go people blow themselves up?

 

[StrawDog]

Understanding? No, you've been defending the Muslims killing Muslims! Now you're trying to make it like it's "injustice"???? And in the latter part of your post, you're still laying blame!

I do not defend violence. I am stating that the violence has a cause.

Still placing blame?! But look at what you're saying ....that the Americans can make Muslims kill other Muslims at great rates. Now think about it, doesn't that make Muslims seem like the most easily manipulated people on Earth?!

Or Americans are evil.

Yet they do nothing while their friends, families are being murdered by other Muslims. In fact, quite the contrary, it often seems that they're cheering such murder of innocents.

"Seems" is the correct appraisal. What you see are the custom picked clips of propaganda. Death of loved ones is tragic and devastating for all cultures.

You can place the blame on the west or the USA if you want, but all it really does is show how fuckin' stupid the Afghans and Iraqis really are. Not to mention how vengeful and vindictive and easily manipulated.

The blame does not fall on the US and Britain alone. But they need to HELP clean up the mess they created.

Regarding the rest of your paragraph. WTF?

 

[StrawDog]

Yeah, sure. But while those few Muslim extremists blow up people, the other 1.4 million cheer in the streets yelling "Down with the great Satan!" and "Allah Akbar!" See? Muslims seem to love violence against other Muslims.

You are wearing your polka dot jammies eh? What a load of crap you spew.

Close your eyes and conjure up a vision of what America represents, and what does one see? Utter moral depravity and vacuousness. And you have the arrogance to point your finger outwards?

 

[iceaura]

Where Islam comes in is the demonization of Islam and Islamic civilization in the West, this is when it is viewed as a war on Islam, not merely against Muslim people.

There are a few crazed Westerners who have come to view this mess as a war with Islam itself. If you keep spreading the the love there, you can probably convince more Westerners that those guys have a point.

What you fail to see if that these concerns are political in nature, and not necessarily religious. Therefore the religion of the people doesn't matter, any people in a similar position would oppose occupation.

This message gets confused when it is alternated with claims of religious solidarity and brotherhood across many - including non-oppressed - nations, and organized around clerical influence and religious rituals and so forth.

I know how fundies think in my culture, and the similarities in reasoning, attitude, and approach are obvious. The only way to keep a fundie's religion from dictating public and political and civil life is to keep them separated from coercive power over others. And that takes vigilance.

So when people tell me I am persecuting them for their religion, and the only reason I have ever paid any attention to their religion is because they are so overtly governed and highly motivated by it as to be a recognizable fundie threat of an all too familiar kind and an unusually severe form, vigilance is awakened. And when they tell me that this or that aspect of apparent reality does not exist because of verses written in books, or that the all but impossible cannot be doubted without dealing insult, the vigilance acquires a search image.

The fact that resistance to severe political and economic oppression is perfectly understandable and praiseworthy, and in the natural course of things would make allies of us all against the bankers, just frames the whole scene in tragedy. I guarantee you the IMF and the heads of the major oil companies don't care about your religion, not even a little bit.

 

[Bells]

So why does the Baron ignore the US army sitting in their countries? Or the fact that none of them were blowing themselves up before the US got there? Not once in the last 1400 years?

And now wherever Americans go people blow themselves up?

Well being forced to endure their (US) company, influence, bombs, getting shot at, having your children killed.. hmm..

Your average Afghani and Iraqi family just want to get on with life. Its time to sort this situation out.

There is this public perception amongst a few here (who shall remain unnamed since it is so obvious who they are from both sides of the equation) who like to categorise all of one group into one little box, without willing to admit that the extremists who murder and commit horrendous crimes against their own people do not represent the whole. Of course, if we were to look at the crimes of the US and her allies and the West in general and categorise all who live in the West or are Westerners as being criminals due to what the few have done, there would be an uproar and we would be reminded that it's not the same.

Bigots will often lump everyone into the same mold because to accept or recognise that the extremists do not speak for the whole would go against the bigoted message they like to wrap themselves in. Both sides are guilty of this in this debate/debacle.

Once both sides are able to recognise that both sides have their good and bad parts, then we might be able to move past the fighting and finger pointing and the hatred that is constantly spewed by both sides.

 

[StrawDog]

There is this public perception amongst a few here (who shall remain unnamed since it is so obvious who they are from both sides of the equation) who like to categorise all of one group into one little box, without willing to admit that the extremists who murder and commit horrendous crimes against their own people do not represent the whole. Of course, if we were to look at the crimes of the US and her allies and the West in general and categorise all who live in the West or are Westerners as being criminals due to what the few have done, there would be an uproar and we would be reminded that it's not the same.

Of course.

Bigots will often lump everyone into the same mold because to accept or recognise that the extremists do not speak for the whole would go against the bigoted message they like to wrap themselves in. Both sides are guilty of this in this debate/debacle.

Yes, sadly. It is very frustrating trying to break through this barrier.

Once both sides are able to recognise that both sides have their good and bad parts, then we might be able to move past the fighting and finger pointing and the hatred that is constantly spewed by both sides.

I am eternally hopeful for this outcome. There seems to be a visible imperialist arrogance that colours US foreign policy since the fall of communism. There seems to be a vast amount of justifying of actions, when they are patently illegal and immoral. Healthy )) debate promotes both sides of the issue, and, of course, there is always room for learning.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Then take it to court!

Which court exactly? The US completely dominates and makes ineffective any criticism of its policies in the UN. Most International bodies are staunchly pro-American and in the Western camp. No one cares.

What possible recourse do the Afghanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Kashmiris, and others have to return normalcy to their lives?

Personal revenge is the only thing that Muslims seem to know ....they seem to know nothing about the law and courts! This is the 21st Century ....and the Muslims are living in the 18th century!!

Most cultures in the world have laws concerning injustice. For people whose denial of any proper recourse in the face of occupation and oppression, there is only one choice left, that is armed struggle against the occupier.

Armed struggle is a right of every individual against the destruction of the lands and the murder of their people. To deny this right to a people recoiling under tyranny is an injustice of the greatest kind.

The more tyranny and oppression rots the land, the more fiercely and adamantly the true freedom fighters of the land will resist the occupation. Resistance against tyranny is benevolent, and those who fight for their freedom are the beloved of God and mankind.

 

[S.A.M.]

The sad part is that you have the entire so-called civilised world participating in this "liberation" farce.

 

[Baron Max]

For people whose denial of any proper recourse in the face of occupation and oppression, there is only one choice left, that is armed struggle against the occupier.

Yeah, I agree with that. But now explain why those same Afghani Muslim fighters kill, blowup and maim more Afghani civilians than all of the US/UN coalition forces combined?

How is blowing up Afghani Muslim women and children in public marketplaces resisting or fighting the US/UN coalition forces? How is throwing acid in the faces of young girls on the way school fighting or resisting the US/UN coalition forces?

Armed struggle is a right of every individual against the destruction of the lands and the murder of their people. To deny this right to a people recoiling under tyranny is an injustice of the greatest kind.

Agreed. But you seem to think it also includes killing ones own people! More Afghani Muslim civilians are killed by the "resistance" fighters than all the US/UN coalition combined. And you seem to be thrilled by it and defend those actions. Why?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

The sad part is that you have the entire so-called civilised world participating in this "liberation" farce.

No, SAM, the sad part is those "resistance fighters" are blowing up, killing and maiming their own people .......using "resistance" against the "occupiers" as an excuse for the killing and maiming.

Tell me, SAM, how is throwing acid into the faces of young girls considered "resistance" to the "occupation"? Or suicide bombers blowing up Muslim women and children in the marketplaces? That's "resistance"???

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Because the Americans pay them to do it. Kinda like they pay off those who fleece the US public with bailouts and then act horrified when they learn it went to bonuses.

U.S. Weapons at War

U.S. arms and military training played a role in 20 of the world's 27 major wars in 2006/07

http://www.newamerica.net/publications/policy/u_s_weapons_war_2008_0

 

[Baron Max]

Because the Americans pay them to do it.

Pretty neat scheme, huh? Wave a little money in front of the Muslims and they'll murder and maim other Muslims! Wow, what an easy battle tactic!

And the Muslims have a good excuse, too. "The Americans made me throw acid at the little school girls!" ...LOL!

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

School shootings aside, how much money would Americans consider sufficient incentive to start a civil war?

 

[GeoffP]

Please back up any claims of SAM said so and so with a link to my actual quote, if you please.

It's unnecessary. You wouldn't be honest about your aspirations in any case.

How about... Let Israel unblock Gaza, abide by ceasefires, initiate dialogue and refrain from stealing more territory.

Sure. Now let's have both sides agree to that, shall we?

Of course. But we are discussing the US here.

Actually, we're discussing everyone. This is a free-for-all, as always.

Yeah, Geoffp's memory is like a colander, where only the points big enough to match his existing bigotry stay put.

Lay off the slander. Especially from you, who never fails to try and put up old, discredited arguments when you think I'm not looking. Your sad defense of genetic bigotry is one such.

I never stated that all Non-Muslims should leave Muslim territory. That's news to me.

What else is this but that? Another dolt.

all Western governments and all Western individuals, except those approved by the democratically elected governments of our sovereign countries, should leave immediately

Their "disapproval" being decided by who? You? Your categories don't suggest any illegality except on basis of your own biases:

Mainly I refer to those Westerners, propaganda journalists from pro-Western military [i.e. Fox news], IMF and World Bank officials, Blackwater and mercenaries, oil company personell, oppressive foreign multi-national corporations, money lenders, soldiers, politicians of countries which have at any time in the near future occupied a sovereign nation or supported such an occupation.

Essentially, your bigotry is founded on the hegemony of your religion.

 

[Baron Max]

School shootings aside, how much money would Americans consider sufficient incentive to start a civil war?

A civil war in the US or in some other country?? We much prefer to sit back and watch other countries fight in their own countries, killing their own people, rather than in the USA.

Wave a few bucks at an Afghani Muslim, and he'll go out and kill Afghani Muslims by the truckload. What a way to fight a war, huh?

Baron Max

 

[Bells]

Because the Americans pay them to do it. Kinda like they pay off those who fleece the US public with bailouts and then act horrified when they learn it went to bonuses.

Do you think the US is paying the extremists they are currently fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, to kill innocent civilians?