Islam vs. the Western World: off-topic posts from a Religion thread

[John99]

DH, screen captures from movies? Of course the responses are predictable.

 

[John99]

I'll take a sample size of one slave who proclaimed himself sultan over his Western troops in the west.

Waht?

 

[S.A.M.]

How can anyone possibly tell if someone was malnourished or overworked from 200+ year old bones? Sure they worked in the fields but like i said children and adults are enslaved to this day. Not in U.S.

Here:

"You have so many individuals who have trauma or injury to the bone, broken neck bones because they were forced to do that kind of labor," says Ena Fox of Howard University.

As Blakey demonstrates how the knee bones work, he tells of the enlarged muscles or torn ligaments the slaves would have experienced. He says half of the populations died before they became teen-agers; others died within the first two years of their arrival.

Fox, who's been collecting data from the teeth that were found, says defects in the tooth enamel were caused by malnutrition.

Further examination of the bones and teeth reveal Africans who were enslaved as children and then shipped here had more cased of metabolic illness and malnutrition than children who spent their childhood in Africa and later died as adults.

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9802/12/t_t/burial.ground/

After they were free (50 years after U.S abolished slavery) they all stayed in U.S too. But the whole U.S is different from even 100 years ago.

Not really. Structural adjustment policies have converted Third World countries into an underpaid labour force that must sacrifice their own development, education and even food to pay their masters and ensure their lifestyles.They've just enlarged their world view from colour to economics. Although, the vast majority of economic slaves for the west are still coloured people who die of hunger.

 

[John99]

No SAM they even bring them to the U.S:

i removed the link because it is more important that i dont hurt someone heres feelings.

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, thats an American couple.

 

[iceaura]

Slaves were not unpaid labour in the Muslim world, they were viziers, ministers, generals, they were elite army corps and they could buy their own freedom. The children of slaves were not slaves. Comparing western slavery to slavery by the Arabs and Ottomans is like comparing sweat shops to a corporate job.

Slaves could buy their own freedom in the US as well, and in many other "Western" places.

Your point about the unique and evil industrialization of slavery in the New World is only obscured and impugned by your Pollyanna description of slavery under the Arabs and Ottomans. That slaves could occasionally better themselves, or be captured for and assigned higher stations than menial, does not answer for the institution or describe the common fate of people taken in slavery under those regimes; that slaves were incorporated into everyday society and viewed as normal inhabitants of the landscape is nothing to boast of.

Slavery was also racially and religiously biased in Islamic countries, as is seen in the order in which it was abolished: Arab Muslim men first, African non-Muslim women only hundreds of years later. (Where it was abolished, which was not everywhere).

And your assertion that the children of slaves were not slaves is extraordinary, without support in any source I can find. Even the descriptions of Islamic slavery that focus on its superior humanity include descriptions clearly of children inheriting their parents' slave status. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/lewis1.html

The Islamic empires were known for their unusual reliance on slaves, and the slave raiders from the Islamic countries were widely known and widely feared.

 

[copernicus66]

If you haven't seen the movie Amistad, you must watch it. It is a must see to understand slavery and the gruesome condition on Atlantic slave ships.

As opposed to the gruesome conditions that occurred while being transported from Africa interior by African and Muslim slave raiders? One third of Trans-Atlantic slaves died before even getting on the white man's ships. Those Muslim and African raiders didn't exactly treat the slaves with tender love and care, ya know?

 

[(Q)]

If you haven't seen the movie Amistad, you must watch it. It is a must see to understand slavery and the gruesome condition on Atlantic slave ships.

Slaves are slaves. They have been stripped of their freedoms. That is the point here DH, one which you ignore.

 

[S.A.M.]

@iceaura:

Bernard Lewis is a Zionist and not what I consider an unbiased source. Children of slaves were brought up as children of the household. If I not mistaken one of the princes of Saudi Arabia is a descendent of a Sudanese slave.

Yup, its Prince Bandar

 

[(Q)]

Not really. Structural adjustment policies have converted Third World countries into an underpaid labour force that must sacrifice their own development, education and even food to pay their masters and ensure their lifestyles.They've just enlarged their world view from colour to economics. Although, the vast majority of economic slaves for the west are still coloured people who die of hunger.

The Islamic propagandist carefully molds the view that slavery is good for the development and education of men through structural adjustment policies.

 

[S.A.M.]

must have been his mom.

It was, she was sold by her relatives to a Saudi family. He's still a Prince and was Saudi ambassador to the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandar_bin_Sultan

 

[DiamondHearts]

The Islamic empires were known for their unusual reliance on slaves, and the slave raiders from the Islamic countries were widely known and widely feared.

Islamic empires, all of them? Some people who claimed to be Muslim, among Arabs and Africans, aided the Westerners in capturing slaves, but as most historians will explain, the extent of slavery as practiced in the New World took a racial connotation and essentially denied slaves of any former status as proper human beings. Laws throughout US history stated slaves worth as 1/3, 1/2, or 2/3 of a man. Describing him as thuggish, brutish, and uncivilized. Malcolm X states "The white men taught us to to hate everything associated with Africa, until we began to hate even our own African-ness." Pre-Islamic Middle Easterners did practice slavery, but as Islam spread, slavery eventually died out in the Middle East.

Enslaving a free man was forbidden during Islam's inception. The ideal that all men are servants of God and belong solely to God, emphasizes this concept. If a man is not the servant of God, he is the servant of wealth, material things, or other men. Breaking the shackles of the mind, requires also physically breaking the shackles of the body.

Those taken as prisoners, were POWs, not slaves, were actually given, according to the dictates of Islam, several methods, of their own choosing, whereby they could earn their freedom. One of these was joining the elite guards of the Islamic world and exercising tremendous power in the Middle East. Furthermore, this concept was not race-based in the Middle East, as it was in America.

 

[John99]

to #175:

i know, i like him.

this reminds me of an old movie i once saw:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUslGSoEH8I&feature=channel_page

 

[S.A.M.]

to #175:

i know, i like him.

Not to say that all was happy glory. Although he had, by Sharia, equal status as his legitimate brothers and received all the benefits of modern education, it was only family pressure from King Faisal that resulted in his father officially recognising him as a son.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Prince Bandar was nothing but an American puppet. He was one of the main supporters of modern American wars in the Saudi government.

 

[iceaura]

Bernard Lewis is a Zionist and not what I consider an unbiased source.

His was the most favorable description of slavery under the Islamic empires that I could find with a quick Google.

The physical realities - for example that the children of slaves were freed separately from their parents, with their own documents of liberation - do not support your assertion, and neither do any of the sources I can find easily.

Yeah, thats an American couple.

Hence the public exposure. In America such things are news.

I'll take a sample size of one slave who proclaimed himself sultan over his Western troops in the west

Americans, and most Westerners so called, have a history of doing their own fighting and other dirty work.

The Islamic imperial practice of capturing boys and enslaving them in the military kept the upper class's hands clean and persons out of harm's way, but like most such delegations of necessity it bit them in the ass in the long run. The eventual dependence of the slave-owner on the slave, the infantilization of the idle and soon incompetent slave-owning class, is now well known as a major hazard of the custom. The Islamic empires relied too much on slavery, and it corrupted them.

If you are actually curious about social mobility of the coerced and indentured in Western societies, the history of the Scots and Irish under English rule provides numerous examples. So do the Nordic countries. Of course, the enslaved did not rise to be Sultans - but that was partly a consequence of things like Sultans having been discouraged.

 

[S.A.M.]

Who in the Saudi regime isn't? By definition does putting the Saud family as a pro-western regime make Saudis into American slaves?

 

[DiamondHearts]

Islamic empires, like who? As you stated empires, I expect at least a handful of names.

 

[S.A.M.]

Americans, and most Westerners so called, have a history of doing their own fighting and other dirty work.

The Islamic imperial practice of capturing boys and enslaving them in the military kept the upper class's hands clean and persons out of harm's way, but like most such delegations of necessity it bit them in the ass in the long run. The eventual dependence of the slave-owner on the slave, the infantilization of the idle and soon incompetent slave-owning class, is now well known as a major hazard of the custom. The Islamic empires relied too much on slavery, and it corrupted them.

Except of course that the Sultan led his men into battle and there are no mass graves of coloured people like those under Manhattan made up entirely of coloured people. Also note that by sharia, only Muslims were required to do military service. Non Muslims were exempt from it.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Who in the Saudi regime isn't? By definition does putting the Saud family as a pro-western regime make Saudis into American slaves?

I have heard him speak on the news, and after hearing what he says concerning America. He seems more brainwashed than even Prince (now King) Abdullah. He was instrumental in easing the Saudi response to the Iraq invasion.