Islam vs. the West

[iceaura]

And you would know this because you have lived there for a long time and are part of that society and culture, correct? I bet you don't even know that Morroco and Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan are world apart.

I'll bet I do. But I do not get my impression of domination by fundamentalist religion from my own distant outsider's observations alone - obvious as the impressions are - but from people who have lived there and are sympathetic to the people and cultures in these regions. Such as yourself, SAM, Kadark, etc. as well as my own acquaintances who have traveled in the regions.

I come from a region in which religion is a fairly poor predictor of many sociopolitical aspects of behavior - such as hiring decisions, or voting preferences, or clothing fashion, or educational level and field, or choice of marriage partner, or location and type of residence. And where it is a good predictor, it is fundie religion.

 

[Montec]

Religion is not bad, in fact it has a lot of good qualities that enhance a culture. The problem is that some men/women will use religion for his/her own gain.

History is full of this self-serving attitude.

 

[Michael]

Monotheistic and monoalienistic religions have the potential to go bad. Polytheisms and polyalienisms seems to be more accepting of the fact that there are other beliefs out there that are equally as valid as theirs.

You see THAT'S the kicker. That's the big problem with mono...isms. There's little room for compromise. "I am a Jealous God" and all. The Romans didn't call Xians Atheist trouble makers for nothing.

Anyway, in todays multicultural world, monotheism will have to adapt or they'll remain in conflict and eventually die out.

 

[S.A.M.]

Cooperation and goodwill are already there. Aside from the overemphasized hatred and villification of Muslims around the world, in reality, there is no real hatred of the West but only a grievance which is based on the unfair foreign policy of certain Western government against innocent populations of Muslims around the world.

This is the take from a Muslim standpoint, believe it or not, but this is how we feel.

I agree with this. This is the general attitude.

There is an excellent play called Betrayed on how this phenomenon of always expecting good things from the west has betrayed Muslims in Iraq.

Most westerners are unfortunately completely clueless about ME culture and thought. Not surprising, really, since they have lost the art of listening to people.

 

[DiamondHearts]

So you base everything you know about the Muslim world (which by the way is not monolithic and contains almost 60 different countries) of what you read online? As I stated earlier, it is impossible to talk about the culture, sociopolitical dimensions, and lifestyle of a country you have never visited. Most of the countries that I stated above, by the way, are practically 96-100% Muslim population. Anyway, you either know about Islam and Muslims, ro you don't, its as simple as that.

 

[John99]

by the way, are practically 96-100% Muslim population. Anyway, you either know about Islam and Muslims, ro you don't, its as simple as that.

Gee thanks.

All those countries are 96-100% Muslim?hmmmmm.

Yeah we hear about it in every other thread so it is safe to say we know enough. How much do you want us to know?

 

[Kadark]

Monotheistic and monoalienistic religions have the potential to go bad. Polytheisms and polyalienisms seems to be more accepting of the fact that there are other beliefs out there that are equally as valid as theirs.

You see THAT'S the kicker. That's the big problem with mono...isms. There's little room for compromise. "I am a Jealous God" and all. The Romans didn't call Xians Atheist trouble makers for nothing.

Anyway, in todays multicultural world, monotheism will have to adapt or they'll remain in conflict and eventually die out.

I'm getting a little tired of your bullshit. Actually, "a little tired" is a gross understatement - I'm physically exhausted from trying to decipher your muddled, pointless post whose only purpose is to rant and moan about monotheism. Look, jackass: just because you're a polytheist, doesn't mean you're more open-minded; similarly, just because you're a monotheist, doesn't mean you're closed-minded. You're a damned fool if you truly believe that accepting one extra god will make you a compromising, understanding individual.

To address your last statement (which is truly a dickslap to the face), I sincerely hope you're joking. Monotheists make up a staggering portion of the population, and they continue to rapidly grow. They're never going to "die out", especially because you can't kill a belief.

 

[John99]

Why dont you get out your bull whip Kadark?

 

[Michael]

So you base everything you know about the Muslim world (which by the way is not monolithic and contains almost 60 different countries) of what you read online? As I stated earlier, it is impossible to talk about the culture, sociopolitical dimensions, and lifestyle of a country you have never visited. Most of the countries that I stated above, by the way, are practically 96-100% Muslim population. Anyway, you either know about Islam and Muslims, ro you don't, its as simple as that.

Hi DiamondHearts,

Haven't seen you in a while? I hope all is well.

I wasn't speaking of the Middle East.
I was speaking about monotheisms and monoalienisms.

 

[Michael]

Kadark,

Feel free to hop right on over my posts OR there is that ignore function on here somewhere.

Anyway, Kadark, while you may be a closet gay (do to your sever homophobia ) I seem to remember you are relatively open-minded in terms of your religous belief. I seem to remember you said, yes, it's possible you may be wrong but so what.

That's fine.

I'm speaking about an over all trend in society when I speak about monotheisms. I'm not talking about "Kadark". Believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around Kadark

Anyway, the Roman's understood this, Mohammad understood this, Buddha .... everyone. They all took different points of view but at least they acknowledged the social phenomena.

I was speaking with a Baptist (years ago in the USA). I said, what do you think will happen to all the Hindu that are India? How do you think God will treat them. His response. Most will probably burn in Hell for entity. Simple as that. I asked recently (over the phone) the same question only about Muslims. I pointed out that Muslims believe in the same God. His reply: Unless they accept Jesus as their Christ and Savior then they will burn in Hell for eternity. Now, I am 100% this is typical of many, if not most, Christians attitude. I was raised a Christian in a majority Christian nation I know the shpeel.

Does this mean ALL Christians are likeminded? NO. BUT, it is an example of an intolerant attitude that developed SPECIFICALLY because of a set of beliefs that revolve around monotheism.

Why don't you tell me why you suppose this occurred Kadark. I'd like to hear your opinion.
Muslims Protesters burn Ahmadiyya Muslim's Mosque

Lets see:
- they're from the same culture.
- speak the same language.
- have the same religion.
- worship the same God.
- are equal in most all respects.

- oh wait, the Ahmadiyya have a new Last Prophet.

You see, that can not be, there is only ONE GOD and only ONE LAST PROPHET. Deviate from that and expect INTOLERANCE.

NOW, I fail to see why you find this concept so hard to understand Kadark? Does this mean ALL monotheists go around and burn down other people's Mosques? No, but I didn't say that they do. I said that mono...isms can lead to intolerant behavior.

As for monotheistic belief dieing out. Read some History. In the future there will be as many people worshiping Allah as there are people now worshiping Olympian Gods. That is the social trend whether you want to accept it or not. The entire world could be 100% Muslim today and in the future there will be as many people worshiping Allah as there are people now worshiping Olympian Gods.

 

[Carcano]

At current rates of immigration and fecundity...Islam IS the future of the West!

 

[Michael]

Depends on how far in the future you look

Religion is on the decline in ALL first world nations. In AU I know many ex-Muslims from families from the ME. Turkey, Iran, Lebanon, Yemeni ... they're all atheist and this isn't even mentioning all the ex-Christians that are indigenous and all the Asians from India and China and Korea and Japan that are non religous.

The fact is people are not immune to rational thought.

That's a fact.

Most young people have a lot of access to information. The Church or Mosque or whatever no longer has the final say and its often that the Priest, Imam, etc... is less educated about religous debate than people here (and less interested).

Lastly, lots of children lie to their parents and pretend they have a beleif. Almost ALL of the people I know do that.

ALL of that said, even if the entire world were Muslim, which it's never going to be, in the future people still will not be Muslim. That's a historical fact.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think we just hear more from the athiests now, due to the internet. I don't believe they are increasing.

 

[Michael]

So again it's not Islam versus the West.

It's The People versus their crappy elected officials. Which is to say Islam is a non-entity. It's the age old problem of the Sheeple versus their Shepards...

 

[Kadark]

Feel free to hop right on over my posts OR there is that ignore function on here somewhere.

Good point.

Woah ... that felt weird. Good point? Good point?! Never thought I'd use those two words next to each other when responding to one of your comical diatribes.

Anyway, Kadark, while you may be a closet gay (do to your sever homophobia )

Yes, my sexuality is certainly pertinent to this topic, isn't Michael? I think you're the only person on Sciforums who can go from discussing mono/polytheism to calling somebody a closet homosexual, then revert back to mono/polytheism and make the entire transaction seem fluid. For that, I give you credit. For everything else, there's masterca - I mean, for everything else, you're wrong. The best part is that you use the word "gay" as an insult, yet say you support their rights. Coming from you, I can't say this level of hypocrisy is surprising.

I seem to remember you are relatively open-minded in terms of your religous belief. I seem to remember you said, yes, it's possible you may be wrong but so what.

Funny, I don't recall that. I'm sold on the idea that what I believe is indeed the truth, and for certain things, I do not recognize the potential for error. Operative words: "certain things". Does my religion fall under that cateogry? You can bet your sweet ass it does.

I'm speaking about an over all trend in society when I speak about monotheisms. I'm not talking about "Kadark". Believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around Kadark

It doesn't?

Anyway, the Roman's understood this, Mohammad understood this, Buddha .... everyone. They all took different points of view but at least they acknowledged the social phenomena.

What social phenomena? Your frivolous detailing of a non-existing trait within mono/polytheistic individuals and their views regarding others? Please describe to me how Muhammad "acknowledged" this social phenomena.

I was speaking with a Baptist (years ago in the USA). I said, what do you think will happen to all the Hindu that are India? How do you think God will treat them. His response. Most will probably burn in Hell for entity. Simple as that. I asked recently (over the phone) the same question only about Muslims. I pointed out that Muslims believe in the same God. His reply: Unless they accept Jesus as their Christ and Savior then they will burn in Hell for eternity. Now, I am 100% this is typical of many, if not most, Christians attitude. I was raised a Christian in a majority Christian nation I know the shpeel.

So? And if you don't believe in the polytheist's gods, then chances are you're destined to the same gloomy fate, according to their beliefs. Truth be told, it doesn't bother me one bit, nor should it bother you. I don't think it makes monotheists less tolerant than polytheists, considering many polytheists reject our concept of God. They're guilty of the same thing you're accusing the monotheists of. Ironically, the only person that seems to care about this is an atheist. Go figure.

You see, that can not be, there is only ONE GOD and only ONE LAST PROPHET. Deviate from that and expect INTOLERANCE.

Within our religion, that's the primary understanding. This sect would not have been disturbed if they would have started their own independent religion. However, they're claiming to be Muslims by using the Qur'an as their book, yet they impose their own out-of-touch ideas. Directly interjecting your own beliefs within the framework of any religion that contradicts its basic tenets is likely to result in backlash.

As for monotheistic belief dieing out. Read some History. In the future there will be as many people worshiping Allah as there are people now worshiping Olympian Gods. That is the social trend whether you want to accept it or not. The entire world could be 100% Muslim today and in the future there will be as many people worshiping Allah as there are people now worshiping Olympian Gods.

A fitting way for you to end one of your vintage posts, Michael: extraordinarily inaccurate content, wrapped in self-assuredness and surety. Well, there's one thing you can be sure of, and that's Islam's remain. It's one of the fastest (if not the fastest) growing religions in the world today, and has spread to every corner of the Earth. There are more Muslims now than ever before. Muslims withstood the most bloodthirsty, successful warrior in history, whose hordes were responsible for erasing entire nations. I'm sure we can survive your phantom "social trends".

 

[Michael]

So? And if you don't believe in the polytheist's gods, then chances are you're destined to the same gloomy fate, according to their beliefs. Truth be told, it doesn't bother me one bit, nor should it bother you. I don't think it makes monotheists less tolerant than polytheists, considering many polytheists reject our concept of God. They're guilty of the same thing you're accusing the monotheists of. Ironically, the only person that seems to care about this is an atheist. Go figure.

You have a point mangled in here It's probably worth a new thread.

One way Islam deals with non-conformity is to teach it's adherents to be intolerant and to bet their sweet arse only their way of worshiping is correct. Then they tie this right into their archaic system of God-Kings keep the people superstitious and tax any religous dissenters appropriately. Of course the severely brainwashed will blather something abotu how they're just "protecting the people of the Book". The same sort of smell arised from the mouths of any aristocratic or ruling class, Souther white slave owners smell similarly. Oh, the irony when the Christians made the Muslims eat pork in Spain. Yummy Yum yum huh

Not to many Coptic Christians in Egypt are there? Must have been that Islams "Universalism" huh?

Within our religion, that's the primary understanding. This sect would not have been disturbed if they would have started their own independent religion. However, they're claiming to be Muslims by using the Qur'an as their book, yet they impose their own out-of-touch ideas. Directly interjecting your own beliefs within the framework of any religion that contradicts its basic tenets is likely to result in backlash.

Baaahahahhaaa.... Ahhhhahahahahah
:roflmao:

Good point Kadark.

You'd have made a fine Catholic King my friend. Convert and eat pork or Die Bitch *Catholic King Kadark shovels pork into poor Muslims mouth before burning his place of worship to the ground*

"Well those Mohammadians would have been fine if they hadn't blasphemed the Christ and Savor Hasues"

Well, there's one thing you can be sure of, and that's

that all superstitious beliefs are on the decline.

Buddhism is the fastest growing religion in AU.
The Baha'i beleif is the fastest growing monotheism by conversion.

 

[Kadark]

PM me when you actually want to have a serious discussion.

Oh, and why are you so interested in me shoveling my pork in people's mouths? Don't get any funny ideas, Michael. You know I don't roll like that.

 

[iceaura]

So you base everything you know about the Muslim world (which by the way is not monolithic and contains almost 60 different countries) of what you read online? As I stated earlier, it is impossible to talk about the culture, sociopolitical dimensions, and lifestyle of a country you have never visited.

No, not just from you guys online - although you recommended that I do so, and I was simply pointing out that I had.

When I observe that you, SAM, and Kadark - and chuush, and that guy who argues by quoting pages of the Quran and commentary on it, et al, - all describe your own cultures as what I would term domiinated by fundamentalist religion, and exhibit the intellectual habits of thought completely familiar to me from my fundamentalist religious neighbors and acquaintances, that is of course an observation tainted by the inherent limitations of my own perceptions and the descriptions I read here from you, SAM, Kadark, etc.

But you did recommend them as a source of enlightenment for me. So I pass on what I have learned from them.

I think we just hear more from the athiests now, due to the internet. I don't believe they are increasing.

The Buddhist ones are. The scientist types seem to have plateaued in the US - and the government types declined - but that is usually taken differently: people worry about the educational system, and the behavior of the US government.

But you might take an interest in why you hadn't heard much from "the atheists" before the internet. Do you suppose there is a connection between that and your perception of atheists as shallow, amoral, belligerent, rude, etc? The polite, profound, and humble ones are either nonexistent or - for some reason - invisible to you. In choosing between those options, you might keep a few factoids in the back of your mind - such as the choice of symbol of the KKK in the US, or the small but significant percentage of Catholic priests who claim to be atheist.

In these respects, I don't think Islam and the West differ by very much.

 

[Kadark]

When I observe that ... Kadark ... all describe your own cultures as what I would term domiinated by fundamentalist religion ...

I've lived within two different cultures: Canadian culture and Turkish culture. Do you think either are dominated by "fundamentalist religion"?

 

[DiamondHearts]

iceaura, if you study many atheists reactions to me, SAM, and Kadark, you will realize that many of them are unfortunately filled with hate and violence. Look at the exchange between Michael and Kadark above, for example.

Atheists can be just as hateful, if not more than theists, it depends on the people. I bet the majority of atheists here probably would not talk to us this way to our face, as a matter of fact they would probably get arrested for verbal abuse.

I'm really impressed by the patience SAM has shown in this forum, she is almost always bombarded with Islam-hating atheists in every thread she visits, yet continues to talk with them in a calm and respectful manner. She is indeed an example of a patient and understanding person.