Islam vs. the West

[S.A.M.]

I pray to Allah that it happens soon. God knows we have tolerated subversive elements in Western nations for long enough.

Don't worry, if Iraq and Afghanistan are any indication, there will be enough dead Muslims to satisfy even you and (Q)

Highly doubtful, mere emotionally charged nonsense on your part.

Italy, Spain, France, Holland, Denmark already the right wing is gaining power.

 

[(Q)]

Italy, Spain, France, Holland, Denmark already the right wing is gaining power.

Usually, when people make up stuff, they try to be convincing.

 

[S.A.M.]

Just wait and watch.

I can see the trends even if you cannot.

 

[(Q)]

Just wait and watch.

I can see the trends even if you cannot.

Where, from your cat infested apartment?

:roflmao:

 

[S.A.M.]

Move on, nothing to see here, nothing happening, all secular humanists here.

 

[(Q)]

Move on, nothing to see here, nothing happening, all secular humanists here.

What's wrong Sam? Cats sprayed your pillows again?:sleep:

 

[S.A.M.]

I haven't seen my cats for almost two years, its really crappy of you to keep bringing them up.

 

[(Q)]

I haven't seen my cats for almost two years, its really crappy of you to keep bringing them up.

It's really crappy when you lie all the time.

 

[lepustimidus]

At least he doesn't continually insult your country, your race, and your lack of religion, S.A.M.

 

[FelixC]

just a question here

just a question here, are both systems destined to be enemies? would it matter, if the vast majority didn't care?

I think both systems are flawed, but its hard to judge if you only know one or are brainwashed via hate. looks bad when TV's have fanatics waving "Death to this or that"

 

[DiamondHearts]

just a question here, are both systems destined to be enemies? would it matter, if the vast majority didn't care?

I think both systems are flawed, but its hard to judge if you only know one or are brainwashed via hate. looks bad when TV's have fanatics waving "Death to this or that"

There is no major conflict. It's all manufactured by different groups who wish to have conflict. The root causes of the problems are not within the fabric of both societies, but are rather are the result of political grievances.

About 25% of the Muslims of the world live in Non-Muslim majority countries, many consider themselves Western and Muslim at the same time. The main issue is colonialism and its aftermath, of which many countries around the world are still feeling repercussions. People feel that many of the Europeans colonized their land, did whatever they wanted, and left the surviving society and infrastructure in shambles. This is the main cause of the problems, not an ideological rift.

 

[(Q)]

There is no major conflict. It's all manufactured by different groups who wish to have conflict. The root causes of the problems are not within the fabric of both societies, but are rather are the result of political grievances.

About 25% of the Muslims of the world live in Non-Muslim majority countries, many consider themselves Western and Muslim at the same time. The main issue is colonialism and its aftermath, of which many countries around the world are still feeling repercussions. People feel that many of the Europeans colonized their land, did whatever they wanted, and left the surviving society and infrastructure in shambles. This is the main cause of the problems, not an ideological rift.

"in President Clinton’s words, that there is no "inevitable clash between Western civilization and Western values and Islamic civilization and values."

The facts belie this view. The primary terrorist threat to the United States comes from Islamic fundamentalists—and the more fervent a country’s or organization’s Islamic beliefs, the more venomous are its denunciations of the West. This is not a coincidence. It stems directly from a fundamental ideological conflict between Islam and the West—an ideological conflict that can be seen, not only in the attacks by Islamic terrorists, but also in the near-civil-wars in countries like Turkey, Egypt, and Algeria between Islamic factions and their more-Westernized governments.

This central issue is the conflict between secularism and religious fundamentalism."

 

[DiamondHearts]

It boils down to the different view both of us have concerning this topic. I don't believe there is an inherent conflict, while you do. This is fine.

This central issue is the conflict between secularism and religious fundamentalism."

I disagree completely for the following reasons:

1. How would you classify the Bush administration and the Neocons in this bipolar conflict?

2. America is not completely secular, there are strong religious undertones to policies in Palestine-Israel conflict, interference in the Muslim world, and almost all issues which riddle the US domestic and foreign affairs.

3. Why is it impossible to reconcile, or simply have friendly relations, between various cultures?

I don't believe that US is completely secular, and Islamic world is religious fundamentalist, even minutely (in the sense Western people use it). Plurality is not only limited to the West, this is all I have to say on the matter.

 

[iceaura]

I don't believe that US is completely secular, and Islamic world is religious fundamentalist, even minutely (in the sense Western people use it).

As secular humanists have long been complaining, the US is significantly and increasingly influenced by religion (more so than almost any other comparably industrialized nation). W&Co and their prayer breakfasts in the Justice Department are exhibit A. Meanwhile, the dominance of fundamentalist religion in the Islamic world is striking to an outsider - the only thing achieved by denying it is a loss of credibility.

 

[Michael]

The facts belie this view. The primary terrorist threat to the United States comes from Islamic fundamentalists—

I disagree. The primary threat to the USA comes from our energy dependency on ME oil, US government corruption and fundamental shifts in American ethos - certainly not Mohammadism.

 

[FelixC]

There is no major conflict. It's all manufactured by different groups who wish to have conflict. The root causes of the problems are not within the fabric of both societies, but are rather are the result of political grievances..

so could there be re-approachment, as happened with Germany & Japan?

they re-entered the West after WWII & have taken part in its developement, why should muslims wallow in pity, when with the money, people, etc they can push ahead, I hear that Palestinians & Lebanese are real smart & that many arabs are natural businessmen, so if more muslim countries joined the west,. would that be good or bad?

I'm thinking Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Iran, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman are ready

then Morocco, Pakistan, Lebanon
yes or no???

 

[DiamondHearts]

A. Meanwhile, the dominance of fundamentalist religion in the Islamic world is striking to an outsider - the only thing achieved by denying it is a loss of credibility.

And you would know this because you have lived there for a long time and are part of that society and culture, correct? I bet you don't even know that Morroco and Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan are world apart. This is seriously like comparing the various European countries with each other. Religious fundamantalism in the negative sense which Westerners always delude themselves into believing as being rampant is actually quite scarce. You should ask someone that has lived there such as hypewaters, SAM, Kadark, or I.

so could there be re-approachment, as happened with Germany & Japan?

they re-entered the West after WWII & have taken part in its developement, why should muslims wallow in pity, when with the money, people, etc they can push ahead, I hear that Palestinians & Lebanese are real smart & that many arabs are natural businessmen, so if more muslim countries joined the west,. would that be good or bad?

It's already happened. The Muslim world is intertwined with the West, and vice verse, although many Republicans and Neocons would disagree. Whereas there are real political grievances of people in the Muslim world (ex. Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Somalia, Kashmir, Xinjiang, etc), this is limited only to hatred of many Western governments' interference or willful neglect of the political sovereignty and self-determination of Muslims in these regions rather than an ideological clash. The example is the immigration of Muslims to the West, and increasing Western tourism and business in Muslim countries. There is NO clash of civilizations, if you are eager to study this I recommend the works of Edward Said on the subject.

I'm thinking Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Iran, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman are ready

then Morocco, Pakistan, Lebanon
yes or no???

Cooperation and goodwill are already there. Aside from the overemphasized hatred and villification of Muslims around the world, in reality, there is no real hatred of the West but only a grievance which is based on the unfair foreign policy of certain Western government against innocent populations of Muslims around the world.

This is the take from a Muslim standpoint, believe it or not, but this is how we feel.

 

[FelixC]

Cooperation and goodwill are already there. Aside from the overemphasized hatred and villification of Muslims around the world, in reality, there is no real hatred of the West but only a grievance which is based on the unfair foreign policy of certain Western government against innocent populations of Muslims around the world.

This is the take from a Muslim standpoint, believe it or not, but this is how we feel.

I was thinking about the title of this thread yesterday, and found out that I don't have any Muslim friends, I had a coworker that converted after she married but I don't work there anymore, but she said that if he ever left her, she would go back to Roman Catholic

is it strange that people don't know each other?
my cuz, said he walked into a storefront mosque, thought it was a store, people were praying looked at him, he left, I guess he realized that it was a meeting

so, I need to learn more

 

[DiamondHearts]

I was thinking about the title of this thread yesterday, and found out that I don't have any Muslim friends, I had a coworker that converted after she married but I don't work there anymore, but she said that if he ever left her, she would go back to Roman Catholic

is it strange that people don't know each other?
my cuz, said he walked into a storefront mosque, thought it was a store, people were praying looked at him, he left, I guess he realized that it was a meeting

so, I need to learn more

I believe with contact and friendship, we can began to understand each other.

Most Muslims in the West are well settled into the society and most of their friends are usually Non-Muslims (mostly Christians), probably as a result of being a minority. In the Muslim world, there are substantial populations of Non-Muslims such as in Lebanon and Palestine where close to 40% of the populations are Christian.

The world is not as bipolar and hateful as one would be led to believe. Many Americans visiting Middle East are usually shocked at how friendly and how curious many Muslims are about American ways.

 

[iceaura]

And you would know this because you have lived there for a long time and are part of that society and culture, correct? I bet you don't even know that Morroco and Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan are world apart.

I'll bet I do. But I do not get my impression of domination by fundamentalist religion from my own distant outsider's observations alone - obvious as the impressions are - but from people who have lived there and are sympathetic to the people and cultures in these regions. Such as yourself, SAM, Kadark, etc. as well as my own acquaintances who have traveled in the regions.

I come from a region in which religion is a fairly poor predictor of many sociopolitical aspects of behavior - such as hiring decisions, or voting preferences, or clothing fashion, or educational level and field, or choice of marriage partner. And where it is a good predictor, it is fundie religion.