Michael said:
I honestly thought I had addressed the questions in the further two posts.
Let me reiterate:
1- Galen's work was based on animals like you wrote above.
Yes and Humans ARE animals. There is no question in that. We are animals. The term “animal’ is just a categorical term. Humans fall into the catgory “animal”. It’s as simply as that. We share >98% of the SAME DNA as some other animals. Many proteins made in the most simplistic animals (for example yeast - used to brew beer) are conserved up to 99.9% in humans. (That is we have essentially the same proteins.)
Your point about Galen doing his work on other types of animals makes no difference. The same stages found in one type of animal are of course found in another.
2- "He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness.
As you already read in my post Galen wrote about developmental stages. There is nothing new offered in the Qur’an other than a refining of the stages - which by the way is NOT how humans develop. Anyway, the notion of developmental stages were written 1000 (that’s ONE THOUSAND) years prior so one should expect some modification and enhancement.
That said, I find nothing divine about the stages written later as to opposed to the prior. And as a matter of fact they are both incorrect. As I pointed out, there isn’t a time when flesh is made into bone and THEN the bone is covered in flesh. And humans don't develop stage wise.
Finally, the bone is just another type of tissue. There is nothing particularly spectacular about it that it should be singled out from all the other types of tissue in the body. Yet the Qur’an singles it out as part of a "stage" in development. This so called bone-stage doesn’t even exist – there is no stage where there is JUST bone that is then covered in flesh.
So you will probably say – that isn’t what the Qur’an is saying at all. Its saying that bone is in flesh and grows from within flesh. YEAH ANLONG WITH EVERY OTHER TISSUE! Bone isn’t any more special then the hundreds of other tissue that is developing at the same so why single it out?
Why make bone a stage over anything else?
Incidentally I’m a developmental biologist. I have doctorate in developmental neuronal biology. The so called "stages" in develpment are just made-up reference points so that people can talk about this or that. They mean nothing outside of reference – as the body is continuing to develop all along. As such, anyone can pick out ANY set of time points and call them a set of stages for convience - but literally speaking the body does not develop in discrete stages.
ie: bone and muscle develop simultaneously.
Therefor, that part of the Qur'an is incorrect.
3- Galen did not discover this as far I know.
"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."
This statement is from Quran. The drop or Nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest").
Firstly, thousands of writers wrote about sperm for 5000-7000 prior.
Secondly, its the second statement that is telling – “This statement is from Quran. The drop or Nutfah has been interpreted . . . .
That’s the great thing about hindsight – it’s sometimes quite accurate!! You go from a drop of sperm in a place of rest to a meaning of dividng blastocyst in relation to zygote!!!
Well I’m sorry but the comment about sperm in a place resting doesn’t contain that much meaning! If any. And really sperm is never at rest so it's also wrong. BUT, why stop there? I mean why not say this: This statement is from Quran. The drop or Nutfah has been interpreted . . . . to mean the haploid number of chromosomes and therefore you can see even Mohammad knew about modern genetics!
4- he did not discover this either.
"And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."
Are you going to say for the record that the sensation of feeling develops AFTER hearing and sight??
5 was a mention about other info.
Questions 6-9 were addressed in my post (specifically a whole section with citations about al Harith Ibn Kalada - making the connection b/w the Prophet and the notion of embryology).
So to summarize:
1) Other writings about embryonic development exited (even 1000s of years prior).
2) The connection was established between Mohammad and doctor al Harith Ibn Kalada as written by MUSLIM HISTORIANS (and cited).
3) Ergo it stands to reason that the Qur’an was just a rehash of previous work regarding developmental biology - maybe some updating in the 1000 years sense Galen.
4) Both were wrong anyway,
a)the notion of developmental stages are just for convince and do not really exist in nature – development is CONTINUOUS not, I REPEAT NOT, in discrete incremental stages.
b) bone is no speacial than other tissue - if so please explain why IT is given precidence over any other tissue? Ergo one could have put any other tissue and said the same.
c) sperm are never at rest.
So the information is wrong regardless.
Introduction
This paper will examine the claim that the embryological development described in the Qur'an has been plagiarised from the writings of ancient Greek physicians, such as Galen. Hence, we will review what was known about embryology by the ancient Indians, Hippocrates, Aristotle, Galen, as well as the embryology found in Jewish scriptures. Then we will outline all the verses in the Qur'an, and some Hadith literature, regarding embryology and human development. In doing so it should be very obvious if there are any similarities or indeed outright plagiarism of Greek ideas which were prevalent at the time.
It should be emphasised that translators of the Qur'an usually translate according to their own understanding of the Arabic and choose words which they think best convey the meaning. Therefore, it is all the more important to refer back to classic Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan AI-'Arab, Taj AI-'Aroos Min jawahir AI-Qamoos, and Al-Qamoos Al-Muhit. This approach will enable us to eliminate any criticism of the Arabic translations and help us to understand in what sense the word was originally used. Another interesting aspect of Arabic is that it is a material language, in the sense that words are based and derived from everyday material things, which are easy to identify. So the Qur'anic descriptions of embryology use a simple yet comprehensive language.
1. Indian Antiquity
Ancient Indian ideas about embryology are to found in the Bhagavad Gita (2 BC) which describes structures such as the amniotic membrane. And the Susruta-samhita (2-3 AD), which says that the embryo is formed of a mixture of semen and blood (this idea was also held by the Greeks, as we shall see later), both of which originate from chyle (digested fats). The differentiation into the various parts of the body, arms and head occurs in the third month. In the fourth there follows the distinct development of thorax, abdomen and heart. Hair, nails, sinews and veins develop in the sixth month; and in the seventh month the embryo develops other things that may be necessary for it. In the eighth month a drawing of the vital force (ojas) to and from mother and embryo, which explains why the foetus is not yet viable. The hard parts body are derived from the father, the soft from the mother. Nourishment is carried on through vessels, which lead chyle from the mother
The factors required for the production of the foetus were thought to be
* the father's semen
* the mother's blood (sonita) or more specifically menstrual blood (artava)
* the atman, or subtle body (consisting of fire, earth, air and water in the proper proportions)
* the manas or mind, united to a particular embryo by reason of its karma.
The idea of the blood being menstrual blood is interesting as it closely resembles Aristotelian doctrine. The clotting of milk into cheese analogy used by Aristotle for the formation of the embryo occurs also in Indian embryology. The Susruta-samhita compares the creamy layers (santanika) formed in milk, to semen and blood, which through chemical changes caused by heat, produce seven different layers of skin (kala). This concept occurs again in a Sutra on embryology written in Sanskrit, "Development, 0 Ananda," Buddha is made to say, "is comparable to a vessel of milk, like as this ferments and forms a kind of kefir or cheese." (A history of Embryology, J. Needham pp 25-27, Cambridge, 2nd edition 1959).
2. Hippocratic Embryology
Hippocrates (460 - 377 BC) was a Greek physician and founder of the Hippocratic school of medicine. The Hippocratic collection of some 60 or so medical works is ascribed to various authors and was probably not written by Hippocrates. The embryological knowledge of Hippocrates is set out in three books, the treatise on Regimen, the work on The Seed the book on The Nature of the Child (Hippocratic Writings, Penguin Classics, 1983).
In the treatise on Regimen section 9 discusses the formation of the embryo. The description is based on the fundamental physiological idea at the time, that is the two main constituents of all natural bodies are fire and water. Both of these in turn consist of heat, dryness and moisture in differing proportions.
"Whatever may be the sex which chance gives to the embryo, it is set in motion, being humid, by fire, and thus it extracts its nourishment from the food and breath introduced into the mother. First of all this attraction is the same throughout because the body is porous but by the motion and the fire it dries up and solidifies as it solidifies, a dense outer crust is formed, and then the fire inside cannot any more draw in sufficient nourishment and does not expel the air because of the density of the surrounding surface. It therefore consumes the interior humidity. In this way parts naturally solid being up to a point hard and dry are not consumed to feed the fire but fortify and condense themselves the more the humidity disappears-these are called bones and nerves. The fire burns up the mixed humidity and forwards development towards the natural disposition of the body in this manner; through the solid and dry parts it cannot make permanent channels but it can do so through the soft wet parts, for these are all nourishment to it. There is also in these parts a certain dryness, which the fire does not consume, and they become compacted one to another. Therefore the most interior fire, being closed round on all sides, becomes the most abundant and makes the most canals for itself (for that was the wettest part) and this is called the belly. Issuing out from thence, and finding no nourishment outside, it makes the air pipes and those for conducting and distributing food. As for the enclosed fire, it makes three circulations in the body and what were the most humid parts become the venae cavae. In the intermediate part the remainder of the water contracts and hardens forming the flesh."
Further in section 26 of the same treatise;
"Everything in the embryo is formed simultaneously. All the limbs separate themselves at the same time and so grow, none comes before or after other, but those, which are naturally bigger appear before the smaller, without being formed earlier. Not all embryos form themselves in an equal time but some earlier and some later according to whether they meet with fire and food, some have everything visible in 40 days, others in 2 months, 3, or 4. They also become visible at variable times and show themselves to the light having the blend (of fire and water) which they always will have."
In the treatise on The Seed sections 5-7.
"When a woman has intercourse, if she is not going to conceive, then it is her practice to expel the sperm produced by both partners whenever she wishes to do so. If however she is going to conceive, the sperm is not expelled, but retained by the womb. For when the womb has received the sperm closes up and retains it, because the moisture causes the womb orifice to contract. Then both what is provided by the man and what is provided by the woman is mixed together. if the woman is experienced in matters of childbirth, and takes when the sperm is retained, she will know the precise day, which she has conceived.
Now here is a further point. What the woman emits is sometimes stronger, and sometimes weaker; and this applies also to what the man emits. In fact both partners alike contain both male and female sperm (the male being stronger than the female must of course originate from a stronger sperm Here is a further point: if (a) both partners produce a strong sperm, then a male is the result, whereas if (b) they produce a weak form, then a female is the result. But if (c) one part produces one kind of sperm, and the other another, then the resultant sex is determined by whichever sperm prevails in quantity.
For suppose that the weaker sperm is much greater in quantity than the stronger sperm then the stronger is overwhelmed and, being mixed with the weak results in a female. If on the contrary the strong sperm is greater in quantity than the weak, and the weak is overwhelmed then it results in a male."
In Section 8 sperm is said to come from the whole body of each parent, weak coming from the weak parts, and strong from the strong parts.
In the treatise on The Nature of the Child (section 14, p.326) it is stated that the embryo is nourished by maternal blood, which flows to the foetus and coagulates, forming the embryonic flesh. Section 15 describes the umbilical as the means by which foetal respiration is carried on.
Section 17 describes the development of the embryo.
As the flesh grows it is formed into distinct members by breath. Each thing in it goes to its similar - the dense to dense, the rare to the rare, and the fluid to the fluid. Each settles in its appropriate place, corresponding to the part from which it came and to which it is akin. I mean that those parts which came from a dense part in the parent body are themselves dense, while those from a fluid part are fluid, and with all the other parts: they all obey the same formula in the process of growth. The bones grow hard as a result of coagulating action of heat; moreover they send out branches like a tree. Both the internal and external parts of the body now become more distinctly articulated. The head begins to project from the shoulders, and the upper and lower arms from the sides. The legs separate from each other, and the sinews spring up around the joints. The mouth opens up. The nose and ears project from the flesh and become perforated, while the eyes are filled with a clear fluid1. The sex of genitals becomes plain. The entrails too are formed into distinct parts. Moreover, the upper portions of the body now respire through the mouth and nostrils, with the result the belly is inflated and the intestines, inflated from above, cut off respiration through the umbilicus and put an end to it. A passage outside is formed from the belly and intestine through the anus, and another one through the bladder.
18. Sections 18 continues that the period of articulation (the period in which the limbs are differentiated)is forty-two days for the female and for a boy thirty days.
By now the foetus is formed. This stage is reached, for the female foetus, in forty-two days at maximum, and for the male, in thirty days at maximum. This is the period for articulation in most cases, take or give a little. And the lochial discharge too after birth is usually completed within forty-two days if the child is a girl. At least this is the longest period, which completes it, but it would still be safe even if it took only twenty-five days. If the child is a boy, the discharge takes thirty days - again the longest period, but there is no danger even if it takes only twenty days. During the latter part of the period the amount which flows is very small. In young women, the discharge takes a smaller number of days; more, when women are older. It is the women who are having their first child who suffer the most pain during the birth and during the subsequent discharge, and those who have had fewer children suffer more than those who have had a greater number."
Section 22 -27 compares the animal embryo with plant seeds, and concludes that from beginning to end the process of growth in plants and in humans is exactly the same.
In Section 30 there is an important passage in which the author discusses the phenomena of birth. and its relation to food.
It concludes, those, which have least food for the foetus, come quickest to birth and vice versa.
1. This has also been translated as "'The ears are opened, and the eyes, which are filled with a clear liquid." and compared to the Hadith of the Prophet Mohammad (Salla Allah Ta'alah 'Alaihi Wa Salam), 'I worship Him Who made my face and formed it, and opened my hearing and eyesight'".
However, the translation is in Hippocratic Writings, Penguin Classics, 1983 reads "The nose and ears project from the flesh and become perforated, while the eyes are filled with a clear fluid" .is clearly referring to embryo development, and is totally different to the Hadith of the Prophet (Salla Allah Ta'alah 'Alaihi Wa Salam). However, the Hadith is talking about something completely different, i.e. acknowledging the bounties of the creator, whist Hippocrates is referring to embryo development..
This example demonstrated the biased and subjective interpretation used by some individuals.
3. Aristotle and embryology
Aristotle (384 - 322 BC) was a Greek philosopher and scientist who wrote over 400 books on many different branches of learning. His main embryological compendium was that entitled On the Generation of Animals. Aristotle dissected and examined many different types of animal embryos, mammalian and cold blooded. It is also possible that he dissected an aborted human embryo (Ogle, W. Aristotle on the Parts of Animals, Kegan Paul, London, 1882).
A central part of Aristotle's ideas on embryology was the concept of the menstrual blood coagulating to form the embryo. He regarded menstrual blood as a kind of semen, which required the male semen to initiate development of the embryo by spontaneous generation
"The foregoing discussion will have made it clear that the female, though it does not contribute any semen to generation, yet contributes something, viz., the substance constituting the menstrual fluid (or the corresponding substance in bloodless animals). But the same is apparent if we consider the matter generally, from the theoretical standpoint. Thus: there must be that which generates, and that out of which it generates ; and even if these two be united in one, at any rate they must differ in kind, and in that the essence of each of them is distinct. In those animals in which these two faculties are separate, the body - that is to say the physical nature- of the active partner and of the passive must be different. Thus, if the male is the active partner, the one which originates the movement, and the female qua female is the passive one, surely what the female contributes to the semen of the male will be not semen but material. And this is in fact what we find happening; for the natural substance of the menstrual fluid is to be classed as "prime matter." (Aristotle (English trans. A. L. Peck, Heinemann, 1942 edition, Generation of Animals, p.111, 729a).
Aristotle had opened hen's eggs at different stages and describes the order of formation of the embryo;
"How, then, are the other parts formed? Either they are all formed simultaneously - heart, lung, liver, eye, and the rest of them - or successively, as we read in the poems ascribed to Orpheus, where he says that the process by which an animal is formed resembles the knitting of a net. As for simultaneous formation of the parts, our senses tell us plainly that this does not happen: some of the parts are clearly to be seen present in the embryo while others are not. And our failure to see them is not because they are too small; this is certain, because although the lung is larger in size than the heart it makes its appearance later in the original process of formation" (Generation of Animals, p.147, 734a).
Aristotle continues to describes embryonic development by comparing it with the action of rennet and yeast
"The action of the semen of the male in" setting" the female's secretion in the uterus is similar to that rennet upon milk. Rennet is milk which contains vital heat, as semen does, and this integrates the homogeneous substance and makes it "set." As nature of milk and the menstrual fluid is one and the same, the action of the semen upon the substance of the menstrual fluid is the same as that of rennet upon milk. Thus when the " setting " is effected, i.e., when the bulky portion " sets," the fluid portion comes off; and as the earthy portion solidifies membranes form all round its outer surface.
Once the fetation has " set," it behaves like seeds sown in the ground. The first principle (of growth) is present in the seeds themselves too, and as soon as this, which at first was present potentially, has become distinct, a shoot and a root are thrown under it, the root being the channel by which nourishment is obtained, for of course the plant needs material for growth. So too in the fetation, in a way all the parts are present potentially, but the first principle has made the most headway, and on that account the first to become distinct in actuality is the heart" (Generation of Animals, p.191, 739b).
Later on, he also says,
"The reason for this is on a par with the reason why yeast grows. Yeast, like these, is tall in bulk to start with and gets larger : this growth is due to its more solid portion turning fluid, and the fluid turning in to puenma. This is the handiwork of the soul-heat. In the case of animals, of the heat of the humour blend with it in the case of the yeast. Eggs thus grow of necessity on account of this use (i.e., they contain a yeast-like residue), but also they grow for the sake of what is better, since it is possible for them to obtain all their growth in uterus owing to the prolific habit of these animals." (Generation of Animals, p.305, 755a).
Aristotle describes embryonic growth;
"Beginning at the heart, the blood-vessels extend all over the body. They may be compared to the skeleton models which are traced out on the walls of buildings, since the parts are situated around the blood vessels, because they are formed out of them.
For the rest go to
http://www.quranicstudies.com/article76.html
since it's an lengthly article elobrating every detail.
