we are talking HUMAN RIGHTS here bells, things like honor killings, arranged marriages,
i stand by my intentions. honor killings is wrong, period. arranged marriages is wrong, period.
Who said they weren't wrong?
But is it something that is practiced only in Islam? What about honour killings in Africa, India and elsewhere? Honour killing is not religious. It is more a cultural phenomenon. And some women even partake in the disgusting practice.
can you spell indoctrination? what i've mentioned is wrong bells, no ifs, ands, or buts, about it.
And some anti-feminists in the West will also say that women in the West are indoctrinated into believing they actually have rights. Read some of Baron's posts as a prime example.
i'll agree, as long as those decisions are rational.
My my, aren't you the big man!
You'll agree so long as it is rational by YOUR standard. Who's to say your standards are even correct? Don't you think women in Islam and elsewhere are able to make rational decisions on their very own? Or do you think we all need big men like you to ensure what we want is rational?
what i said bells, was that they need to be treated like the rest of humanity. no woman in her right mind would want to be murdered because her choice of boyfriend doesn't fit with her parents choice.
No. You are saying they need to be given human rights, so long as said rights are deemed rational by your standards. You say they are indoctrinated, but then say that if their choices aren't up to your standard, then what they want will be over-ridden and replaced by what YOU deem is right.
How about this Leo. How about you butt out until they tell you to butt in? How about you stop bombing their homes, telling them their religion is evil and should be wiped off the map? How about you respect their right to practice whatever religion they so choose without judging them? How about you, like their religion, stops demanding they curb to ideals that aren't their own and actually allow them to make up their own minds? You know, give them the rights afforded to them by their humanity to determine their own existence?
name 5 women who want to be told at 13 they WILL marry a certain person no matter how much the female despises the idea.
Some of them might. Have you asked them? Or are you basing it on what you think is good or not?
You have 13 year old girls in the US pledging their virginity to their fathers in ceremonies that are akin to marriage ceremonies. Yet no one is saying these girls are being indoctrinated by their religion and families into making such choices and decisions. They are free to do it aren't they?
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How about, a girl of 13 has a choice to refuse an arranged marriage and tell her parents she'd rather wait and see for herself who she will marry and have her family and community respect her decision? How about she also has a right and a choice to accept her parents decision if she so chooses?
And again, arranged marriages are not solely in the domain of Islam. They also exist elsewhere. Even in some religious sects in the West as well. Maybe instead of attacking the religion, you concentrate on the cultures that encourage such things to occur. How about, as Geoff correctly pointed out, you empower the woman to make up her own mind instead of trying to make it up for her?
i don't mean to be crass here bells but their religion can, uh, well nevermind.
Well that is not for you to decide now is it? Or are you now going to be the so called 'freedom fighter' that denies them even the right to practice the religion of their choice?
Gee, you're not really giving them lots of human rights there are you leo? You are denying them the right to make choices in their culture, how they dress (hijab) and now you're also denying them the right to practice the religion of their choice.
wrong.
islam is so thoroughly intgrated into their government that any objectiveness is impossible. this is exactly what we are trying to accomplish in iraq. we have completely dismantled the previous government and replaced it with members of the civilian population. idealy there will be NO islam in iraqs government.
And Christianity is not entrenched in the politics of the US? Ermm ok. So I guess they have reviewed the decision to not teach evolution in many US schools then, for example?
Oh and Saddam, as much of a sick SOB he might have been, practiced a secular form of Government.
yes to all of tyhe above, under one condition, and that is she is truely free to make her decision. that means free from any religious influence.
And if it is her choice to make her decision based on her religious beliefs, then you would deny her the right to self expression and freedom to live her life as she so chooses?
Don't you get it yet?
You are not the one to place any condition on her or any other woman. For goodness sake, you're carrying on about giving her human rights and the right to her own humanity, but you are placing conditions on how she does it.
Do you still not see how hypocritical you are? How warped your notion of freedom and rights are? If she is to be truly free to make up her own mind, it is to be done without ANY condition from you or anyone else.
there are differences between rich and poor bells in case you missed my meaning
So only one group should have the right to choose what she wants based on the amount of money she may have?
religion has no, none, nada, business in government, zero.
No it does not. But if she wishes it to be, who are you to tell her no? If you tell her no and deny her that right, aren't you also then an oppressor?
Hence why I said to let the women in Islam choose for themselves what it is THEY want. This is not about you. It is about them and their 'human right' to choose.
islamic woman? whats an islamic woman? islam is a religion bells.
in my mind an islamic woman is the equivilent of a nun.
Again. Who are YOU again? And what right do YOU have to make decisions about their religion? Don't you think they are capable enough to make up their own minds about their religion? Why don't you just butt out of their religion and allow them to decide what it is they want from it?
because women are not peices of property to be bartered and traded thats why.
So if a woman wants her parents to arrange her marriage, you'd deny her that right? Again, who are YOU to say what she should want or not? In doing so, aren't you also her oppressor?
You cannot fight for someone's freedom and human rights if you place conditions on said rights. They need to be free of you and the rest of us to decide what it is they truly want.
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GeoffP said:
I would put it this way: I would like to see them empowered enough to be able to have their rights. Presently, they don't have much power; I don't think I need point out that I saw a show on Syrian TV about the size of the rod you can whack your wife with to imply any more strongly that they don't have much in the way of political protection. Obviously that varies place to place, and it may be that islamic women WILL empower themselves yet; I can't imagine the likes of that particular showdown, of course. And yet, many desire equality that they are unable to get. The women of Afghanistan were unable to work or go to school - they might have fought for their rights, but when one is locked up in the home (when not escorted about by male relatives, who might be less sympathetic to the plight of their female kin than would be expected elsewhere) it becomes difficult to form a popular front for one's own liberation. So...I think part of this movement should, by rights, come from those who claim a great desire for human rights and equality - Western nations, socialist or otherwise, but more than that: I think in many places it cannot come without external pressure. No one was going to release the women of Afghanistan from subjugation, and even now it isn't all that great. I think the examples illustrate the point.
I agree with what you are saying. The women's movement in the West was not given to us. Women fought tooth and nail to be granted the freedoms they have today. And the battle is ongoing. Christianity did not give women the rights they have in the West. Women did.
External pressure can only be applied if it is desired by the oppressed. For example, lets say the women in Afghanistan tell the West to butt out and let them handle it in their own time and way. We can't then say, 'well that's not good enough, we demand you have such and such a rights now'. It is not for us to tell them what they need and want. It is for them to determine for themselves and then it is for us to help them get it if they want us to.
And again, we can't expect what took us a couple of hundred years to happen in the course of a few months in Islam. The woman's movement in the West was not an external movement, but an internal one.. as in the women in the West decided what it was they wanted and fought for it. Why don't we allow the women in Islam the same dignity and respect to make their own choices? Doing so is the empowerment that they need and want. Instead of telling them what they want or need, why don't we let them make up their own minds and then help them to achieve their goals once they have done so? Fight for their freedom to have a voice, yes. But don't tell them what that voice should be. That is what I am saying.
