Islam Good for Women?

Bells said:
You tell me.

And what of women who live in so called "Christian countries" who face constant abuse and are treated as second class citizens, who are denied the right to divorce by the Catholic Church for example (remember the words 'for better or for worse' in the wedding vows)? What of women who are abused in Christian countries and denied rights by their husbands, families, community?
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Bells, i think that vows are stated by both parties, man and women . Let's not forget what the men are stuck to in these "western "relashionships.
 
And honestly, if you were a women, which maybe you are, would you rather live in a arabic country or western one?
 
IceAgeCivilizations said:
So you think Muslim women have a relatively good life, go figure.

They get killed if they gripe too much, that's why they don't gripe, and you sit there and tell them they should do it themselves, that's disgusting.
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Maybe you need some lessons in reading and comprehension.

I am saying that they don't have it 'good'. But it is not for us to tell them how they should have it either because we are in no position to dictate to anyone. It is for them to choose for themselves what is good for them, as we in the West chose our own path.

Do you understand now?

Oh and IAC, some women in the West are also killed if they gripe too much. Check the domestic violence rates in the US and you might be astounded at just how "well" women are treated in the US in their very own homes. And yes, in case you failed to recognise it, that was sarcasm. Hence why I said we are hardly in a position to demand they be just like us, because we aren't perfect either.

I mean look at you for example? You support a religious doctrine that views women as second class citizens. Do you think women should be free to choose for example?
 
timmbuktwo said:
And honestly, if you were a women, which maybe you are, would you rather live in a arabic country or western one?
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As a woman, I quite enjoy the freedoms of the West.

I am not saying the treatment of women should not change in Islam or anywhere else for that matter. It needs to change.

What I am saying is that it is not for me, as a Western woman, to dictate to Muslim women how that change should take place and what that change should involve. How insulting and degrading would it be for Muslim women, who are already oppressed, to be denied the choice in choosing their very freedoms and how they wish to fight it? I am not saying they don't need help or should not get it. But we should allow them to choose the help they desire as a movement and how they wish that help to be implemented.
 
Bells said:
Women don't have it so great in the West either. We may have it better, but we aren't that much better that we are in a position to dictate what others should do.
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no?
women in the west (america) are a MILLION times better off than, say, pakistan where islam is the only religion.
 
leopold99 said:
no?
women in the west (america) are a MILLION times better off than, say, pakistan where islam is the only religion.
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You ask a woman in the US who is beaten and raped daily by her husband if she is better off than a Pakistani woman suffering the same fate? Do you think she will say she is a 'million times better off'?

This is hysterical.

A bunch of men, who fail to recognise or improve the plight of women within their own culture, demanding that Islam changes how it treats women. Have you asked women in Islam what it is they want? You know, since you all seem to know so much about what freedoms these women should have, have you asked them if they want your interference? Have you asked the women in Islam if they think how the West treats women is better? Have you asked the women in Islam if they wish to be treated as the women in the West.

Do you think a woman should be free to choose to wear the hijab for example? Keep in mind, I have seen many of you demanding the hijab be banned.
 
No, AK, it is not good. It is not pretty.

I think something we should keep in mind is the legality. In Pakistan, it isn't illegal to beat your wife. In the US, it is. That's something of a difference and something we should all take note of, although violations to the law are, of course, not unknown.
 
Bells said:
Oh and IAC, some women in the West are also killed if they gripe too much. Check the domestic violence rates in the US and you might be astounded at just how "well" women are treated in the US in their very own homes. And yes, in case you failed to recognise it, that was sarcasm. Hence why I said we are hardly in a position to demand they be just like us, because we aren't perfect either.
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i think the focus here is on institionalised (too tired to spell right). how could you ever stop domestic abuse? and men are domestically abused too, it's not only hitting people you know.
 
Bells said:
You ask a woman in the US who is beaten and raped daily by her husband if she is better off than a Pakistani woman suffering the same fate? Do you think she will say she is a 'million times better off'?
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well i was actually refering to things such as honor killings, being seen in public, being escorted by a man that isn;'t a reletive or husband, that sort of thing.

This is hysterical.
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i'll agree. a womans life isn't easy no matter where they are, but it still remains that life here in the US isn't bad at all.
 
AK444 said:
Though they have some restrictions. It is good i feel
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Oh? How so?

Why do you think women should be restricted?

GeoffP said:
I think something we should keep in mind is the legality. In Pakistan, it isn't illegal to beat your wife. In the US, it is. That's something of a difference and something we should all take note of, although violations to the law are, of course, not unknown.
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And for how long has it been illegal for a man to bash or even rape his wife in the US?

That's the thing, the West took decades upon decades to change and it still needs changing. However now that we have changed, we expect other systems to change and do so immediately and while that would be ideal if it were possible, it simply is not possible.

Some women will report being beaten or raped by their husbands, and some husbands will report the same by their wives, to the police and will be ignored. The laws may be in place, but the attitudes of society takes a lot longer to change. In that, we have no place to demand Islamic women do this and that when we can't even do it for ourselves.

Do I think the system needs to change over there? Damn straight I do. And if I could I would want to force change. But I recognise that my attempting to do so would deny women in Islam the right to choose and the freedom to do so. Do they have it bad? Yes, god you'd have to be an idiot to not recognise that.

But we are in no place to demand they challenge their oppression. In doing so, we become oppressors ourselves. How do you think women in the West would have felt or would feel now if women and/or men from another culture told them that they had to change or challenge the Western system? How do you think women in the West would react today if an outsider told them that they were oppressed and must do this and that to change it and did not give them the choice on what it was they wanted for themselves?

John99 said:
i think the focus here is on institionalised (too tired to spell right). how could you ever stop domestic abuse? and men are domestically abused too, it's not only hitting people you know.
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That's the thing. While it might be illegal to beat one's spouse, it does not stop it from happening. And just because it is illegal does not mean that men and women who commit acts of domestic abuse are punished for their crimes either. The legal system is lacking in how it treats domestic abuse cases. I have seen police officers question the validity of a woman's claims that she was domestically abused, regardless of the bruises on her face and body, asking her what she had done that might have provoked him. I mean huh? No one deserves or should ever be beaten in their own home by anyone, let alone their spouse.

So in light of the fact domestic abuse occurs and is at times overlooked by the legal system in the West, are we in a position to demand that Islamic countries implement domestic abuse laws? Keeping in mind ours are far from perfect and people still die in domestic abuse situations on a daily basis in the West?

leopold99 said:
well i was actually refering to things such as honor killings, being seen in public, being escorted by a man that isn;'t a reletive or husband, that sort of thing.
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And you are right. It should all be outlawed.

However is not synonamous with Islam. It occurs in other cultures as well. The same applies with being seen in public with other men who aren't relatives, etc.

I am not saying change is not needed. Change needs to be brought in with a sledgehammer. But we in the West cannot be that sledgehammer. Women in Islam feel and are oppressed enough as it is within their own culture. And they also feel outside pressure and oppression from the West as well. Now imagine how they would feel if Western women and men demanded they force change in their system or if we entered and forced the change ourselves. Should we confer with the women in Islam over what they wanted changed? Or would we simply assume what it is they want and deny them the right to choose? In that, we become oppressors.

It is a fine balance. To implement change, they have to want it. If they don't want it and we force it upon them, then we are no different to their current oppressors. If they want it, then help them implement it by any means available and necessary. However we cannot implement our beliefs and rights and deny them the right to choose their own autonomy. Let them tell us what it is they want and then we help them get it. That is all I am saying.
 
GeoffP said:
Old JC did supposedly cut out the stoning of women for adultery and that. But basically women had to fight for their own rights. Now, that doesn't absolve islam either, of course: and stoning isn't the same as not being allowed to vote. Anyway, I like to slag people and things.
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Hey, If the woman was stoned then what happened to the man who raped her ?
 
Singularity said:
I think women should wait until they start to see Islam as the problem.
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Is it Islam or the culture of the region? After all, honour killings occur in places like India as well as other countries.

The same applies to arranged marriages and not being seen in the company of men who are not related, etc. This is not synonamous to Islam but something that appears to be cultural.
 
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