Is there Free Will?
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
All actions are accurately predictable though. A probability could be formulated to predict the probability and confidence level that a specific action will be made.
In Freshman year, I wrote a small program with random number generator to predict if a drunk man left midway will make it to the house or the pub. You model every step.
Charles Fleming
Registered Senior Member
What happened to my post?!! I posted something, it was quite long too, and it's not here! 
Celestial bodies - Theophanies
athought said:
Descriptions of God use terms related to light to describe his nature. He is a being of light and glory. The theory of relativity suggests that for a being of light, all space and all time would be present!
======================
I believe in our celestial bodies, or theopanies we "know" all things.
The following is from a taped sermon of William Branham, a prophet of God,
recorded on Feb, 21 1965...and titled:
WHO IS THIS MELCHISEDEC
Now, the different between Him and you as a son... See, He was at the beginning the Word, an "En morphe" body. He came in and lived in that in the Person of Melchisedec. Then later... We never heard no more of Melchisedec, because He became Jesus Christ. Melchisedec was the Priest, but He became Jesus Christ. Now, you bypassed that, because in that form He knowed all things. And you have never been able to know that yet. You come like Adam, like me. You became from the attribute to the flesh to be tempted. But when this life is finished here... "If this earthly tabernacle be dissolved, we have one already waiting." That's where we go; that is the Word. Then we can look back and see what we done. Now, we don't understand it. We have never become the Word; we've just become the flesh-man, not the Word. But you see, in order to stand temptation you had to bypass the theophany; you had to come down here in flesh to be tempted by sin.
Before the foundation of the world his Name's put on the Lamb's Book of Life. Then from that He become the Word, the theophany, that could appear, disappear; and then He become flesh and returned back again, resurrected that same body in a glorified condition. But you bypassed the theophany and become flesh-man to be tempted by sin. And then "if this earthly tabernacle is dissolved, we have one already waiting." We have not yet the bodies. But look, when this body receives the Spirit of God, the Immortal Life inside of you, it throws this body in subjection to God. Hallelujah."
The rest of this recording is available here.....
http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=1087
athought said:
Descriptions of God use terms related to light to describe his nature. He is a being of light and glory. The theory of relativity suggests that for a being of light, all space and all time would be present!
======================
I believe in our celestial bodies, or theopanies we "know" all things.
The following is from a taped sermon of William Branham, a prophet of God,
recorded on Feb, 21 1965...and titled:
WHO IS THIS MELCHISEDEC
Now, the different between Him and you as a son... See, He was at the beginning the Word, an "En morphe" body. He came in and lived in that in the Person of Melchisedec. Then later... We never heard no more of Melchisedec, because He became Jesus Christ. Melchisedec was the Priest, but He became Jesus Christ. Now, you bypassed that, because in that form He knowed all things. And you have never been able to know that yet. You come like Adam, like me. You became from the attribute to the flesh to be tempted. But when this life is finished here... "If this earthly tabernacle be dissolved, we have one already waiting." That's where we go; that is the Word. Then we can look back and see what we done. Now, we don't understand it. We have never become the Word; we've just become the flesh-man, not the Word. But you see, in order to stand temptation you had to bypass the theophany; you had to come down here in flesh to be tempted by sin.
Before the foundation of the world his Name's put on the Lamb's Book of Life. Then from that He become the Word, the theophany, that could appear, disappear; and then He become flesh and returned back again, resurrected that same body in a glorified condition. But you bypassed the theophany and become flesh-man to be tempted by sin. And then "if this earthly tabernacle is dissolved, we have one already waiting." We have not yet the bodies. But look, when this body receives the Spirit of God, the Immortal Life inside of you, it throws this body in subjection to God. Hallelujah."
The rest of this recording is available here.....
http://www.nathan.co.za/message.asp?sermonum=1087
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Any evidence to show credibility to any of that guy's groundless and frankly rather boring garbage?
Any evidence to show Branham is a prophet?
Any evidence to show god exists?
He sounds as closed minded as you do.
What you really need to understand is you can't just waffle garbage and expect everyone to take it as ultimate undeniable truth, even if your own mind is that easily satisfied. If you are going to quote this bollocks here wouldn't it be pertinent to back up your claims with something viable? Just a suggestion- you can live in any mental world you wish.
Any evidence to show Branham is a prophet?
Any evidence to show god exists?
He sounds as closed minded as you do.
What you really need to understand is you can't just waffle garbage and expect everyone to take it as ultimate undeniable truth, even if your own mind is that easily satisfied. If you are going to quote this bollocks here wouldn't it be pertinent to back up your claims with something viable? Just a suggestion- you can live in any mental world you wish.
I started to read this thread but after is started to get bogged down by the personal exchanges of a few I thought I’d just post my reply to the original post…
Michael…
What a lovely poem to have devised to tickle the mind..
You have just created a paradox. Or several.
A paradox is created by the inability of the human mind to understand the world around us.
It is way to easy to question, debunk, discredit popular understanding.
You are questioning a notion, a fanciful impulse; a whim. Before your poem becomes a fact you must define “Free will”.. Free will cannot be defined in human language, to attempt to explain it in human language is pointless.
How about..
Free will lets us make a choice about our future.
To make a choice we must have options.
The options occur in our future.
Thus to have free will one must know the future.
We must be omnipotent to know all our future options.
No human is omnipotent.
Thus free will can’t exist.
Pointless..
Michael…
What a lovely poem to have devised to tickle the mind..
You have just created a paradox. Or several.
A paradox is created by the inability of the human mind to understand the world around us.
It is way to easy to question, debunk, discredit popular understanding.
You are questioning a notion, a fanciful impulse; a whim. Before your poem becomes a fact you must define “Free will”.. Free will cannot be defined in human language, to attempt to explain it in human language is pointless.
How about..
Free will lets us make a choice about our future.
To make a choice we must have options.
The options occur in our future.
Thus to have free will one must know the future.
We must be omnipotent to know all our future options.
No human is omnipotent.
Thus free will can’t exist.
Pointless..
Charles Fleming
Registered Senior Member
Have you ever truly questioned it?? Have you asked and waited, as someone who wants to know the truth should, for an answer?
heflores:
Probability is not perdicting. We use probability when we do not know all of the variables.
For me the question of free will is if all of the variables were known (Hiesenbergs uncertanty principle implies that we can't know all of the varriables.), however, if we did know all of the varriables could our decisions be perdicted with certanty?
Blindman:
Choices and options exist in the present. We don't need to know our furture options(unless you are investing on the Chicago Merchantile - where you should always know about futures and options), We need to know about our current options and I am sure that we do know them. The question is are they real or imaginary.
Probability is not perdicting. We use probability when we do not know all of the variables.
For me the question of free will is if all of the variables were known (Hiesenbergs uncertanty principle implies that we can't know all of the varriables.), however, if we did know all of the varriables could our decisions be perdicted with certanty?
Blindman:
Choices and options exist in the present. We don't need to know our furture options(unless you are investing on the Chicago Merchantile - where you should always know about futures and options), We need to know about our current options and I am sure that we do know them. The question is are they real or imaginary.
MShark:
<i>I would say that Free Will is: the ability to take an action that even if all variables were known that action could not be predicted.</i>
Well, quite possibly there is no free will in that sense.
Another definition of free will is that a choice you make is free if you would not have chosen to do otherwise even if you could have so chosen.
For example, if you raise your arm, is that an act of free will? Let's say I have the ability to predict whether you will raise your arm or not, and, for the sake of argument, I am always correct in my prediction. If you decide to raise your arm, and I have said you will do so, is it still a free choice on your part? By your definition, it isn't. By the alternative definition, it is. The fact is, for whatever reason, you decided to raise your arm. You didn't feel compelled to raise it - as far as you are concerned, nothing forced you to come to the decision you came to <b>even though it was predicted</b>.
<i>I would say that Free Will is: the ability to take an action that even if all variables were known that action could not be predicted.</i>
Well, quite possibly there is no free will in that sense.
Another definition of free will is that a choice you make is free if you would not have chosen to do otherwise even if you could have so chosen.
For example, if you raise your arm, is that an act of free will? Let's say I have the ability to predict whether you will raise your arm or not, and, for the sake of argument, I am always correct in my prediction. If you decide to raise your arm, and I have said you will do so, is it still a free choice on your part? By your definition, it isn't. By the alternative definition, it is. The fact is, for whatever reason, you decided to raise your arm. You didn't feel compelled to raise it - as far as you are concerned, nothing forced you to come to the decision you came to <b>even though it was predicted</b>.
The variables that you're talking about are functions within themselves. For example, hearing, seeing, speaking, sleeping, working, ect....are variables that differ from one person to another and rely on many other factors....I don't see any other option but probability to predict man's actions. It would be crude, but nothing else would work. First we will never have all the variables, but even if we did, I don't see that will ever have enough data or perfect relation between the variables to formulate an empirical, semi-empirical, or theoretical model that will provide any answers to the great degree of certainity that you desire. Newton's every action has a reaction might be a good base model to use, of course it must be calibrated properly.
PS. You need all the variables when you do probaility, because you have to understand all your degrees of freedom, and their averages and standard deviations, ect.. to be able to do a risk or reliability analysis.
heflores:
I am not sure if what I said was incorrect or if it could be taken two different ways. You are right when doing statistics the more variables that we have the better our model. What I meant is that if in place of all of the variables we had the correct data. And yes I know obtaining all of the data is impossible but from my point of view that is free will. Furthermore, I believe that free will is a central point in Christianity.
James R:
I think I understand what you are saying. I do not see how what you are describing makes us any different than a robot with an "Emotion" chip. You certainly may be right but based on my experiences in life I choose to believe in free will as I described.
I am not sure if what I said was incorrect or if it could be taken two different ways. You are right when doing statistics the more variables that we have the better our model. What I meant is that if in place of all of the variables we had the correct data. And yes I know obtaining all of the data is impossible but from my point of view that is free will. Furthermore, I believe that free will is a central point in Christianity.
James R:
I think I understand what you are saying. I do not see how what you are describing makes us any different than a robot with an "Emotion" chip. You certainly may be right but based on my experiences in life I choose to believe in free will as I described.
Ok......
What do you consider as viable evidence...
I have said this is not a God of history of which I speak.
He has produced enough evidence in this generation to indict, judge and pass sentence, on those who've turned Him down, and enough for those who would accept Him.
It should be no problem to provide more than enough.
You just lay out ...EXACTLY, what you would call viable evidence.....
And when God provides it, you stick to the standard for what you made as the condition for proof, and admit if that has been met ......or not.
Simple enough...?
What do you consider as viable evidence...
I have said this is not a God of history of which I speak.
He has produced enough evidence in this generation to indict, judge and pass sentence, on those who've turned Him down, and enough for those who would accept Him.
It should be no problem to provide more than enough.
You just lay out ...EXACTLY, what you would call viable evidence.....
And when God provides it, you stick to the standard for what you made as the condition for proof, and admit if that has been met ......or not.
Simple enough...?
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Yes, i have.
Well this is an extensive subject so there's a hell of a lot of evidence to look at. The first thing is to read each and every religious script known to man. Many contradict each other but not one has right to say it is above any of the others. So the first key is to read all scriptures and religious texts. We must ask many questions from what we read: Are they mortal aliens as said by the sumerians? Were there many gods as suggested in lots of different religions and even stated in the bible many times? Were there no gods or aliens and the ancient people just didn't understand the world and all above it? This is just a start but is an important one.
I have begun my analysis of the bible. In depth analysis. There's several reasons why my analysis would be more fair than that of a thiest or athiest. A theist starts reading with his brain stating it's all love of god and god is real, an athiest starts reading with his brain closed off to its possibility. As such both parties are biased before starting such a task. I am as open minded to this as anyone can be... Thus i have the chance to look at what's really written instead of what my brain picks out from between the lines.
Theres a distinct difference between saying: "Why would this be.." and "It's all the doing of god.."
One is a question, one is refusing to ask a question. Before asking questions why think you could ever know the truth.
Then we look at why people believe in god. There are two distinct classifications- 1) People born into it, 2) People who had near death or serious life problems. Neither of these would be viable testimony to validity.
We must question all sorts of things, this is not a decide over night issue. Ask questions like: 'Why do i know a woman who was a devout christian here whole life, and even more so when her mother died. I spoke to her recently- she no longer believes in god.' Why would someone who knew something was true stop believing in something they knew was true?
We must also look at historical planetary questions. Belief stems to say the planet was created 6-8000 years ago. All evidence suggest against this.
It is all an integral part of each other. You might say hearing a voice is substantial enough, and for you that is fine. However to many that is not an answer. We've not 'heard this voice' and obviously cannot see it from your side. I bet the voice of god is a real life changer and opens peoples eyes to the absolute truth- still wonder why some people then leave 'faith' if god really did speak to them.
At the other end of the scale: Current analysis shows if there is a god he's a slave driver who makes promises to his prophets, and destroys everyone else. Just read the bible and you'd know. It also shows the garden of eden was in Mesopotamia- as such would it not be prevalent to read sumerian scriptures? They would have been the first to witness the works of god and would be closer to the truth. Abraham was Sumerian, as was Noah, Moses, Adam/Eve etc. You see there are questions to ask- you just don't ask. Remember your position- you must fear god, if you don't you're going against him. As such you are not allowed to look at it from other angles and will always be closed off to any other possible truth.
-You start off by saying we have to read every religious script known to man....who told you that was nessesary?..
God can lead his people to the truth.
-Many contradict each other, but none has the right above another....
This is another assumption, that is only an example of how you have alredy tried to limit the possible outcome.
God won't be limited by any man.....
-Were there gods or no gods....the bible says there were, so does about every other culture on earth.
obviously things were once quite different on this planet.
Why should that be an issue.......continue on in your search for the truth.
Then you go on to say everyones bias but yourself.....
How .....generous of you.
I was not always a christian.....don't assume you know what I studied or experianced before I choose to accept the bible as truth.
The bible says to judge all the spirits......not to say everything is love and of God.
You confuse the truth with the christian demonations version of the truth....they are two very different things.
Sitting arround cutting out "paper dolls" of Jesus and having chili suppers in the church basement of a "lodge" which is all they are, that call themselves "christian" has nothing to do with the real God of the bible.
I don't blame anyone for being critical of this kind of behaviour...they should be .... rightly so.
God puts a warning "buzzer" inside a son of God, that goes off when some-one "coats" over the scriptures twisting them away from their meaning.......
But you have jumped to conclusions already about "asking questions" and you just get worse from there.
You need to start with the open mind you are saying everyone should have.
Thats a good idea where to start.
But from just reading your post it is so full of pre-conceived assumptiomns about christians, the bible, and what God "HAS" to be.
How could God show someone with their mind set as this ........anything?
I'm sure there is a lot of truth in the Sumerian texts......there is in most religious articles otherwise they would have no followers at all.
Just remember...the devil, assuming you can accept such a concept, is going to access your human mind and manipulate your human reasoning to agree with his viewpoint if he can....That is what the bible says he has been doing since the beginning.
So don't assume every "Idea" that pops into your head is your own.
You have to have something that is an absolute to take it back to ...to compare.
That is what all the prophets did, with the works of each of their own.
Now you said:..."At the other end of the scale: Current analysis shows if there is a god he's a slave driver who makes promises to his prophets, and destroys everyone else. Just read the bible and you'd know"
This statement implies your mind is already made up....how can you objectivly judge anything when your mind is closed to the outcome.
I say what I have found is not what you have stated here at all.
Every word of God is true....and He will keep everyword.....
Did He say when....? No
Don't get impatient, or overly critical... and you will see it's the truth.
The bible said the Word of God is like a seed...
A seed won't come to life on your computer desk just laying there.
It has to be put in the right conditions of light and soil, and moisture. God is in nature...you can learn from it without ever reading a bible.
The heart of a man has to be prepared ground for the "seed" of the Word of God to fall into.....then it will bring forth of it's promises to you.
If the heart is "stony ground" the seed will lie there until a foul of heaven comes and takes it away from you....thats Satan in your mind reasoning you away from the truth you could have had.
You said: Why would someone who knew something was true stop believing in something they knew was true?
Read what Jesus said about the subject:
Mark 4:2
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And this is His interpretation of the parable.
Mark 4:14
The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. 18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. 20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
God can lead his people to the truth.
-Many contradict each other, but none has the right above another....
This is another assumption, that is only an example of how you have alredy tried to limit the possible outcome.
God won't be limited by any man.....
-Were there gods or no gods....the bible says there were, so does about every other culture on earth.
obviously things were once quite different on this planet.
Why should that be an issue.......continue on in your search for the truth.
Then you go on to say everyones bias but yourself.....
How .....generous of you.
I was not always a christian.....don't assume you know what I studied or experianced before I choose to accept the bible as truth.
The bible says to judge all the spirits......not to say everything is love and of God.
You confuse the truth with the christian demonations version of the truth....they are two very different things.
Sitting arround cutting out "paper dolls" of Jesus and having chili suppers in the church basement of a "lodge" which is all they are, that call themselves "christian" has nothing to do with the real God of the bible.
I don't blame anyone for being critical of this kind of behaviour...they should be .... rightly so.
God puts a warning "buzzer" inside a son of God, that goes off when some-one "coats" over the scriptures twisting them away from their meaning.......
But you have jumped to conclusions already about "asking questions" and you just get worse from there.
You need to start with the open mind you are saying everyone should have.
Thats a good idea where to start.
But from just reading your post it is so full of pre-conceived assumptiomns about christians, the bible, and what God "HAS" to be.
How could God show someone with their mind set as this ........anything?
I'm sure there is a lot of truth in the Sumerian texts......there is in most religious articles otherwise they would have no followers at all.
Just remember...the devil, assuming you can accept such a concept, is going to access your human mind and manipulate your human reasoning to agree with his viewpoint if he can....That is what the bible says he has been doing since the beginning.
So don't assume every "Idea" that pops into your head is your own.
You have to have something that is an absolute to take it back to ...to compare.
That is what all the prophets did, with the works of each of their own.
Now you said:..."At the other end of the scale: Current analysis shows if there is a god he's a slave driver who makes promises to his prophets, and destroys everyone else. Just read the bible and you'd know"
This statement implies your mind is already made up....how can you objectivly judge anything when your mind is closed to the outcome.
I say what I have found is not what you have stated here at all.
Every word of God is true....and He will keep everyword.....
Did He say when....? No
Don't get impatient, or overly critical... and you will see it's the truth.
The bible said the Word of God is like a seed...
A seed won't come to life on your computer desk just laying there.
It has to be put in the right conditions of light and soil, and moisture. God is in nature...you can learn from it without ever reading a bible.
The heart of a man has to be prepared ground for the "seed" of the Word of God to fall into.....then it will bring forth of it's promises to you.
If the heart is "stony ground" the seed will lie there until a foul of heaven comes and takes it away from you....thats Satan in your mind reasoning you away from the truth you could have had.
You said: Why would someone who knew something was true stop believing in something they knew was true?
Read what Jesus said about the subject:
Mark 4:2
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And this is His interpretation of the parable.
Mark 4:14
The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. 18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. 20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
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*sarcasm* Oh right, that must be fact then- you've answered everything, bravo. */sarcasm*
Obviously you completely missed the point.
There you go again. What a waste of time. You asked a specific question as what i regarded as viable evidence. I told you and this is your answer??? God does this/god does that? Lol what a muppet.
Actually i said a religious man wont search for evidence or the truth because he thinks he already has it, thus he is biased, (you are the perfect example of this). An athiest wont look for the truth becauses there's no possibility of it being truth. Thus he too is biased. The only person who can search is the man with the open eyes.
Eh? Confuse the truth? What truth? We haven't even established evidence yet so don't be so presumptuous as to claim truth. Not to mention im sure thos millions of 'christian demonations' disagree with you. I suppose you're right, they're wrong? Even though you have no evidence or proof? Just because you say so right?
Aha, the real god... i see...
Aha, like a doorbell? *Yawn*
Ummm lol! you are telling me to open my mind?? ehehe. Asking questions draws conclusions, not draw a conclusion from thin air and never ask questions. You don't ask questions or seek you just give the visitor version of the truth which is non-negotiable.
Lol it's like the pot calling the kettle black. Look at the quotes above- who's drawing conclusions about christians, the bible and so on? It's apparent you didnt even read my post. You're the one who says 'god has to be..'. Is it possible there isn't a god at all? No? Then in your eyes 'god has to be..'. I acknowledge all possibilities.
Last time we spoke you didn't even know who the Sumerians were... remember? You said it was all a load of nonsense whoever they were. I see times have changed. Have you read any of it yet or still just making it up as you go along?
The same goes for you. I image the devil as one would image Father christmas.... Imagine this jolly big fat fello going round giving out presents... wouldn't you love him for it? He offers presents to the kids so they start to trust in him at an early age. He then somewhere along the lines does unspeakable evil acts.
The problem with this scenario is it matches god aswell.....
Offer eternal life. Then drown the planet, bomb citiies yada yada yada.
The devil and god share a lot in common. How can you know you're hearing god and not the devil? Because he says so?
I said 'currently'. Goto dictionary.com and learn what the word means. I am to this point on page 30 or so. If you read any of my prior posts i stated when i find the love and so on i will mention it.
Im far from impatient and only criticize that which i have seen thus far, which is my right. As for seeing it's the truth- when that day comes i will provide the undeniable facts and open every humans eyes. You seem to be doing god more harm than good, perhaps he should pick a new spokesperson.
Oh i love nature... the trees, animals etc. Where's the relevance to a big invisible guy in the sky? And actually.... I left a cup of coffee by my computer- it grew life. Little light, no soil, too much moisture. I can claim god made the fungus grow, but unless i can prove or show good evidence then my claims are worthless.
Or maybe god gets you to worship and work for him then laughs at you in the face when you ask for that which was promised. You're just assuming one truth with nothing of substance to show it isn't something entirely different.
And now..... we get back to jesus, kinda figures...
It is quality farming advice, however saying it's satan yada yada is the interpretation of a guy 2000 years ago. For the benefit of argument let's say it is satan. Fair enough. I will get into it once im at that part of the bible. For now i'll just say whatever.
However in the case of my friend there was no persecution or affliction- you could just say: she saw the light. But whatever- i'll just agree with you, saves pointless debate over a small issue.
Why does God care enough about our path to choose it for us?
I think that
a/ if there is a god then he gave us the free will because he doesn't do any miracles "to force us" to believe in him.
b/ if a is true then we have the free will because the all powerful god wants us to.
c/ if b is true this god doesn't know what we will do. He created the natural laws (to keep us on the ground) and gave us a vision of "good" (an aim to follow).
d/ if c is true the god knows all. All past and future deeds. If you decide to kill your neigbour the god knows all: the names of the members of your jury etc. But he also knows what happens if you don't kill your neighbour and join the Peace Corps instead. He knows the name of your unit leader etc. God knows all the posibilities that can happen. ie. he knows all and you still have free wil.
a/ if there is a god then he gave us the free will because he doesn't do any miracles "to force us" to believe in him.
b/ if a is true then we have the free will because the all powerful god wants us to.
c/ if b is true this god doesn't know what we will do. He created the natural laws (to keep us on the ground) and gave us a vision of "good" (an aim to follow).
d/ if c is true the god knows all. All past and future deeds. If you decide to kill your neigbour the god knows all: the names of the members of your jury etc. But he also knows what happens if you don't kill your neighbour and join the Peace Corps instead. He knows the name of your unit leader etc. God knows all the posibilities that can happen. ie. he knows all and you still have free wil.
Is there free will??
NO.
Flip a coin as many times as you can.
Now, does the coin land on heads and tails 50/50.0000001 because it wants to, or because it has to for it to exist within the system called Logic.
There are a plenum of possibilities that exist in our world. Because all of these possibilites are EXACTLY that, possibilites, this then implies that all of these possibilites are true.
And because these are possibilities all exist simultaneously.
However if a man were controlling your mind how would you know?
If you've never seen a circle before, yet knew what a line was, walked on in this line and came back to where you started how would you explain what you were walking on as anything other than a straight line?
|____|
A line segment or an infinite number of points?
|----------->
<----------->
Which is longer the ray or the line?
Free will or Determinism?
Just another product of relativity......
NO.
Flip a coin as many times as you can.
Now, does the coin land on heads and tails 50/50.0000001 because it wants to, or because it has to for it to exist within the system called Logic.
There are a plenum of possibilities that exist in our world. Because all of these possibilites are EXACTLY that, possibilites, this then implies that all of these possibilites are true.
And because these are possibilities all exist simultaneously.
However if a man were controlling your mind how would you know?
If you've never seen a circle before, yet knew what a line was, walked on in this line and came back to where you started how would you explain what you were walking on as anything other than a straight line?
|____|
A line segment or an infinite number of points?
|----------->
<----------->
Which is longer the ray or the line?
Free will or Determinism?
Just another product of relativity......