Is there Free Will?

Re: We're way off the topic

Michael,

Originally posted by Michael
I still do not see a logical rebuttal argument that disputes the claim that if there is an all knowing god then we do not have free will. This implies that if you believe in an all knowing god (and there may be one) then we do not have free will. MII
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From what I have read I do have an idea of how to see an all knowing god and people who still have free will.
If you take the hypothesis that God is there and is all knowing and all powerful than you could think of it as analagous to a movie and God is the only one to have seen the film.
If you think about it this way then you think about how when you watch a film or read a book there are a lot of different options and paths that characters could take through-out the movie or book but in the end they choose the paths that they do for whatever reasons that they do.
Now someone could take this analogy and say that the paths that the characters take are directed by the script-writers but this would not be considering the characters as true people but simply actors, further if you took this analogy and put it into an improvisation show, where there is no script, than it is completely up to the person how they will react and only an individual (in this case the individual would be analagous to God) who had seen the show before anyone else would know how those people would react.
The reason that people who believe in God can believe in free will is because if one truly believes that God is all powerful and all knowing than they believe that he truly is the beginning and the end and has the ability to have already seen what will happen and what choices we will make.
Therefore, the prerequisite to a true belief that God could know everything and yet we still have free will would be a belief that an all-knowing and all-powerful God could exist.
I hope my analogy makes sense to you and helps with your search for a logical rebuttal.
 
Good thoughts people :)

Here's another:

Free will can be defined as the ability to do what you want to do, what you desire. As I said before, if we were not created from nothing, but organized into beings that could act on their eternally existent inclinations, then what we want to do is not forced upon us at all.

God knowing everything, knows what YOU want to do; like a father who knows his child, but in a much more full and perfect sense.

Knowing what you want, he knows how you will want to react in every situation, and he places us all in an environment where we can prove what we really desire, not so much to show him but to show ourselves. It wouldn't seem fair if God simply said from the moment that he organized us into beings that could act upon their desires that, "You deserve this reward, and you deserve that one." Not only that, but we would have been robbed of the chance to learn from experience and would not be what we would otherwise become. We would all be idiots without knowledge. Bit by bit we learn and progress, "and if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."
 
Ive posted this arguement in another thread, but this thread is of course more appropriate for the subject matter- free will.

Everyone is a victim not of genes, but of genes and enviornment together; knobs and turnings. Of course, you can argue with the preposition that all we are is knobs and turnings, genes and enviornment. You can insist that there's something......something more. But if you try to visualze the form this something would take, or articulate it clearly, you'll find the task impossible, for any force that in not in the genes or the enviornment is outside of physical reality as we perceive it.

Darwin sheads some light on this topic...... Darwin saw how these forces have their combined effect: by determining a person's physical "organization" which in turn determines thought and feeling and behavior. Darwin makes a point that even today goes ungrasped: ALL influences on human behavior, enviornmental as well as hereditary, are mediated biologically. Whatever combination of things has given your brain the exact physical organization it has at this moment( including your genes, your early enviornment, and your assimilation of the first half of this sentence), that physical organization is what determines how you will respond to the second half of this sentence.

As for why , if all behavior is determined, we "feel" as if we're making free choices, Darwin had a modern explanation....: our concious mind isnt privy to all the motivating forces. "The general delusion about free will is obvious- because man has power of action, and he can seldom analyze his motives (originally mostly INSTINCTIVE, and therefore now great effort of reason to discover them: this is important explanation) he thinks they have none."

Some of our motives are hidden from us not incidentally but by design, so that we can credibly act as if they aren't what they are; that, more generally, the "delusion about free will" may be an adaption. Still he got the basic idea: free will is an illusion, brought to us by evolution. All the things commonly blamed or praised for- are the result not of choices made by some immaterial "I" but of physical necessity.

A response to dehumanizing human behavior is what Darwin thought- complete surrender. Give up on free will; no one really deserves blame or credit for anything; we are all slaves of biology. "we must view a wicked man, like a sickly one, it would be more proper to pity than to hate and be disgusted." The hatred and revulsion that send people to jail- and in other contexts lead to arguements, fights, and wars- are without intellectual foundation. Of course they may have a PRACTICAL foundation. Indeed thats the problem: blame and punishment are as practically necessary as they are intellectually vacuous.

So the funny thing is that us "scientifically minded" people are more understanding and thus compassionate to others due to understanding the extends to which they acted. Theists will many times want to look down upon people as if they were somehow removed from the influences that make humans...... humans. Truth is; we are all of a robotic nature and by understanding this concept we can progress instead of blaming people for acts that were ultimately out of their control. This doesnt mean that punishment isnt a good deterant, because it is necessary to hold society together.
 
Here is my own way to make this "shorter and sweeter"

No one is responsible for their brain makeup when they were first born. So one's first actions are the result of their brain dictating one's responses to environmental stimuli. The enviornmental information is taken in and the brain will make some new connections in its neural makeup as a result..... the next behavior is the result of the new combination of biological and enviornmental influences. So if we start with something no one had a say in (one's genetic composition) then how are responsible for actions that result of "choices" made by your brain. We are never truly in control to the extend we want to think. We have begun to experience a spiral of actions that are a result of choices made when we had no control.
 
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MooseKnuckle

That is an interesting statement. Do you think that is a belief that builds a good foundation for an individuals life? Would it be good if everyone believed that way?

Athought:

What makes you think that you know God well enough to say what she can do and what she chooses not to do? And why is it important?
 
MShark-

That is an interesting statement. Do you think that is a belief that builds a good foundation for an individuals life? Would it be good if everyone believed that way?
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No, the illusion of free will is important for some people. The concept of free will makes life more poetic. It allows people to live life thinking that everything is in their ultimate control. It does not benefit one to acknowledge the illusion of free will, it does however give one a better understanding of human behavior. In the quest for knowledge there will be some times when one has to face the hard truth regarding strongly held beliefs, but if one is truly on the quest, they will understand that reality can be hard and cold and they can come to the conclusion that want has no bearing on is.

Really....we dont have any free will. I dont see big deal with this personally. But I can understand the resilience to combat this notion.

Many religious people will start with the idea that we have free will and they mold the arguement to fit that outcome. See this is the wrong way to go about finding the truth. You should not have the answer to start with, and then go on to mold the facts to fit it. This is misguided and will lead to the prescence of many holes. You should start out objectively and work to make the pieces fit where they may. This is the path to the truth, to be emotionally devoid on the topic at hand and come to a conclusion that fits logically.
 
MooseKnuckle

Nice Post. I guess I am one of those who start with the idea that we have free will. We all have to start by beliveing in somthing.

Free Will is one of those sticky wickets. It just seems so obvious from the inside but it does kind of fly in the face of logic and the scientific view of the world.

I'll stick with my perspective and if you turn out to be correct well then I guess I really never had a choice to think differently anyway.
 
How did you react to this sentence? Did you scrutinize it? Did you have to? Can you stop if you want to? I say the illusion of free will is as good as the real thing until evidence to change that assumption is discovered. I'd further say that there IS free will at least to a nominal extent. If I choose to join the army, that is an act of free will as far as I can tell. If it's as far as I can tell, I should continue to question everything related to the issue and put an "answer pending" message there for myself when I get back to the issue. :D
 
MShark-

I'll stick with my perspective and if you turn out to be correct well then I guess I really never had a choice to think differently anyway.
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Exactly.

Its good that you can see my point and be as objective as possible regarding such an emotional subject.

I dont see my position as being terribly threatening to theists (they might though). It does not rule out a supreme being in any shape or form. It is just a scientifically minded way to look at human behavior. I do feel that to acknowledge free will as an illusion is to acheive a greater compassion for humans.

In the grand scheme of things, everyone is a victim of circumstance. :m:
 
AThought,
How were we created?
======
That was wonderfull, a really good collection of teachings.
There have been many men through out the ages that have been inspired and moved of God....
Luther, Wesley, Branham, ......Finney, Calvin, Moody, Knox.....


"Not so much to show him but to show ourselves."
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Sweet....!
exactly right......."who can know the heart of man, for it is desperatly wicked"....
The Word is a diserner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Son of Man....

On our journey, as you said..."and he places us all in an environment where we can prove what we really desire,"

Sometimes we are not even aware of the desires that are buried so deep with within us that are wrong, He lets us see them by the situations he leds us to, so we can see the depths of our own heart, the desires therein, and purge the wrong out of it, until we can reflect God in us.......incoruptable character.....back to God.
They that are led by the Spirit of God they shall be called the sons of God.

"Bit by bit we learn and progress, "
---------
precept by precept, line upon line.....
 
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Horseman42
1) What are you saying by this is Jesus getting married? Please stop talking in metaphors just put it in plain English and then quote the Bible if you need to.

2) So what's the deal with the flood are we are pure now or what? I mean that was God's intent right to start anew.

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Sorry to take so long....I got sidetracked onto another thread for awhile.

1) Jesus is getting married, yes.
He has been colecting his "Bride" from the gentiles for nearly 2000 years from every generation since the Holy Spirit was given.
It is also refered to as the "body of christ"
Just as in a marriage, the two become one.....
And from the union of this "christ is formed in you" the hope of glory, for when He appears, we shall be like Him.
He was the Son of God, and the firstborn of many brethren..
The beginning of the creation of God.




Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9 - And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Romans 7:4 - Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

1 Corinthians 10:16 - The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

1 Corinthians 12:27 - Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Ephesians 4:12 - For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:



2) God's intent to start anew....?
The flood was the result of Man's chosing the tree of Good and Evil over the tree of life.
Satan is the God of this evil age, and this is Satan' Eden today...
God had a plan, to express His attributes, and it is going just as planed, Satan is only a tool in the hand of God....
Man will destroy himself by turning away from God's provided way.
That has always been His Word, thats wher he put his name,
Jesus Christ...yes we start anew in Him......

The world has three stages to it.....
The world before the flood....destoyed by water.
The world after the flood...Jesus bled His blood on it.
The world as it is now will be burned with fire...

Life has three stages...first when a baby's born, there's...
Water - breaks
Blood - being born, and
Spirit - Slap him on the behind and he breathes.

God brings us into His kingdom the same way..
Justification......washed by the water of the Word.
Sanctification....cleansed by His blood
Baptism of the Holy host.......and filled with "His" Spirit.
 
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
In the grand scheme of things, everyone is a victim of circumstance. :m:
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Oh MAN, you idealog. VICTIM? I'm no victim. I chose my circumstance, I didn't have to into the army. No one made me go to college. Nobody made me stick my dick in my girlfriend. Sheez. Victim? If this is your attitude, you're just a victim of yourself bro.
 
WesMorris-

Oh MAN, you idealog. VICTIM? I'm no victim. I chose my circumstance, I didn't have to into the army. No one made me go to college. Nobody made me stick my dick in my girlfriend. Sheez. Victim? If this is your attitude, you're just a victim of yourself bro.
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Nothing to get worked up about. Yes I agree that you made your choices. I do think you might have interpreted my statements in a different way than I intended.

I am, however saying that people dont have as much a choice as they think they do regarding a potential action. Past influences(genetic and enviornmental) mold you into the person you are today, there is no escaping those factors.

When I said victim, I meant everyone is the effect of genes and enviornment. In that sense you are a viticm of circumstance. You can make your own choices but those choices are contingent on previous circumstances.
 
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle
WesMorris-

Nothing to get worked up about.
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Yeah you're right. Pardon if it seemed different.
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle

Yes I agree that you made your choices. I do think you might have interpreted my statements in a different way than I intended.
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Probably.
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle

I am, however saying that people dont have as much a choice as they think they do regarding a potential action. Past influences(genetic and enviornmental) mold you into the person you are today, there is no escaping those factors.
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I agree. Further, my observation is that people are creatures of habit. They think and act in a continually varying theme of a gazillion different habits. This is one of the most difficult aspects of "free will" since it seems that what do from habit is our choice... in a sense yes... but as you say.. not in the way one might think.
Originally posted by MooseKnuckle

When I said victim, I meant everyone is the effect of genes and enviornment. In that sense you are a viticm of circumstance. You can make your own choices but those choices are contingent on previous circumstances.
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My bad, I can't stand "victims" so I get kind of annoyed with the word. I don't like that phrase in that context too much but I do get your meaning and think you're on the right track. :D
 
Have any of you ever read Luke Rheinhart's 'The Dice Man'? Super book and one that anyone questioning free will should read :D
 
Is there any way that free will can exist within the bounds of our current understanding of natural laws?
 
MShark:

<i>Is there any way that free will can exist within the bounds of our current understanding of natural laws?</i>

Depends what you require for will to be "free". What does "free" mean?
 
Originally posted by MShark
Is there any way that free will can exist within the bounds of our current understanding of natural laws?
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The following might help those of you who have not yet conceived a way that God can possibly see all time. It, combined with my earlier quotations and thoughts which lead up to it, should form a logical rebuttal when understood as a whole. It begins with ideas expressed by the prophets as revelation from God, and continues with an explanation of how such prophetic utterances about the nature of God are finally finding ground in what men of science are now discovering:

Several scriptures suggest that the way men perceive time upon the earth may not be the way time really is throughout the universe. These suggestions include the idea that all things are present before the Lord and a similar concept, namely that past, present, and future are continually before the Lord.

Only in the twentieth century has the field of physics begun to speak about time and space in a way that corresponds to these revelatory statements. Albert Einstein, in the early part of this century, developed what is known as the theory of relativity. Einstein postulated that what men had assumed were absolutes in the physical world - space, gravity, speed, motion, time - were not absolutes at all but were interrelated with each other. That is why the theory was called the theory of relativity. Physicists now agree that a person’s time reference will vary depending on his relative position in space.

Einstein also showed that if a body moves at very fast speeds (those approaching the speed of light, or 186,000 miles per second), that body’s time slows down in relation to the time of a body that is on earth; and for the body in motion, space contracts or shrinks. In other words, time and space are not two separate things but are interrelated. Physicists refer to this phenomenon as the space-time continuum. If an astronaut were to journey out into space at speeds approaching the speed of light, though to himself all would seem perfectly normal, to someone on earth it would appear as though his clock were ticking slower, his heart were beating slower, his metabolism operating slower, and so on. He would actually age more slowly than would a person who remained on the earth. Though the finite mind tends to reject such concepts, Einstein’s theory suggests that men are victims of their own limited perceptions. Reality to man is a product of his relative position in the space-time continuum. According to this theory, if a being achieved the speed of light, to that being all space would contract to the point that it would be "here" for him, and all time would slow down until it became "now" for him. Descriptions of God use terms related to light to describe his nature. He is a being of light and glory. The theory of relativity suggests that for a being of light, all space and all time would be present! As incredible as such a concept is, increasingly sophisticated experiments continue to substantiate Einstein’s theoretical description of the realities of the universe.

Dr. Lael Woodbury, dean of the College of Fine Arts and Communications at Brigham Young University, talked about man’s perception of time and God’s perception of time in the following address:

"The evidence suggests that God perceives time as we perceive space. That’s why ‘all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things’. Time, like space, is ‘continually before the Lord.’

"Right now we perceive music in time as a blind man perceives form in space - sequentially. He explores with his fingers, noting form, texture, contours, rhythms. He holds each perception in his mind, one by one, carefully adding one to the other, until he synthesizes his concept of what that space object must be like. You and I don’t do that. We perceive a space object immediately. We simply look at it, and to a certain degree we ‘know’ it. We do [not] go through a one-by-one, sequential, additive process. We perceive that it is, and we are able to distinguish it from any other object.

"I’m suggesting that God perceives time as instantaneously as we perceive space. For us, time is difficult. Lacking higher facility, we are as blind about time as a sightless man is about space. We perceive time in the same way that we perceive music - sequentially. We explore rhythm, pitch, amplitude, texture, theme, harmonies, parallels, and contrasts. And from our perceptions we synthesize our concept of the object or event - the musical artwork - that existed in its entirety before we began our examination of it.

"Equally complete now is each of our lives before the Lord. We explore them sequentially because we are time-blind. But the Lord, perceiving time as space, see us as we are, not as we are becoming. We are, for him, beings without time. We are continually before him - the totality of our psyches, personalities, bodies, choices, and behaviors.

Einstein’s theory is only a theory, although it is being substantiated again and again as a valid representation of reality. How God operates through the vastness of space and the eternity of time has not been revealed in specific detail, but what information man has been given harmonizes with what physicists are discovering about the interrelationship of space and time. While it cannot be definitely stated how God operates, modern physics suggests that since he is indeed a being of light, then past, present and future are continually before him.

(DaCSM, p.322)

:D
 
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