Is there Free Will?

Re: Re: Re: Wesmorris

Originally posted by heflores
Fine Wes, you're cool. Now stop calling my damn book silly. Only I can do that.

Fair enough. :D

Oh, but I can't promise about calling the book silly, but my aim isn't to offend you.. so if I do, all you have to do is tell me plainly "that hurt my feelings" or something... and then I'll remember "being right isn't as important as caring about people" (in general) and I'll chill.
 
What I meant about the universe expanding is that as you know there is a valid theory of expansion that mention that the universe is a sphere revolving around an axis that is attached to a plane. The plane thickens and expands and that's a process that results in the expansion of our universe over time.

The topic of discussion here is about god being the all knowing and how that contradicts with Free will. My answer was, God is all knowing also who created a universe that is expanding meaning part of it is still not existing, so not having the future happen now does not imply lack of knowledge. Same for free will. God has chosen to give man a free will to act with it NOW, and god knows the plan for the future and where man choice will lead him to....
 
heflores,

What I meant about the universe expanding is that as you know there is a valid theory of expansion that mention that the universe is a sphere revolving around an axis that is attached to a plane. The plane thickens and expands and that's a process that results in the expansion of our universe over time.

An interesting theory. I think I've heard of it before as well now that you mention it.

My answer was, God is all knowing also who created a universe that is expanding meaning part of it is still not existing, so not having the future happen now does not imply lack of knowledge.

Wait a minute are you suggesting that God does not know the future? If he doesn't know the future then he does have a lack of knowledge. Then he is not all knowing. I'm a little unsure what you're saying here, but I think it has something to do with space/time.

Same for free will. God has chosen to give man a free will to act with it NOW, and god knows the plan for the future and where man choice will lead him to....

So following you're train of thought if God has a specific plan and knows where man's choice will lead him to then we don't really have free will, because the choices were already made for us.
 
Originally posted by Horseman42
heflores,



An interesting theory. I think I've heard of it before as well now that you mention it.



Wait a minute are you suggesting that God does not know the future? If he doesn't know the future then he does have a lack of knowledge. Then he is not all knowing. I'm a little unsure what you're saying here, but I think it has something to do with space/time.



So following you're train of thought if God has a specific plan and knows where man's choice will lead him to then we don't really have free will, because the choices were already made for us.

What I'm really saying is God have an ultimate plan that includes all those that will use their free will appropriately in one room and those that abuse it in another room. That is the ultimate plan, to sort out his creation. All the rules of the sorting are known to god, but god does not know ahead of time which path will we take. He knows all the different paths though and where they lead to.

Imajine yourself assigned to the task of testing a bunch of kids in math. You are the all knowing teacher that decides the criteria for passing and for failing and the consequences for passing and failing, but you don't know who will pass and who will fail until the exam is adminestered. God is the same way.

As far as the expansion of the universe analongy, it's a space time problem indeed. For those that experience time, they must extrapolate to think in the future or remember the past. I don't believe god experience time the way we do, minute by minute. I think he is above that dimension of time, afterall, he created it, so he must have total control over it.
 
heflores,

What I'm really saying is God have an ultimate plan that includes all those that will use their free will appropriately in one room and those that abuse it in another room. That is the ultimate plan, to sort out his creation. All the rules of the sorting are known to god, but god does not know ahead of time which path will we take. He knows all the different paths though and where they lead to.

Right so you believe that God is not all-knowing, because he does not know which path we will take.

Either he's all-knowing or not all-knowing. He can't know everything about some things (like rules of sorting) and nothing about others (like what choices we will make) this is not what all-knowing means.

Imajine yourself assigned to the task of testing a bunch of kids in math. You are the all knowing teacher that decides the criteria for passing and for failing and the consequences for passing and failing, but you don't know who will pass and who will fail until the exam is adminestered. God is the same way.

Right so again you believe God to be not all-knowing (because you say he doesn't know who is going to "pass the test")

I'm saying to you if I was an all knowing teacher then I would absolutely know who is going to pass and who is going to fail before I administer the test. Obviously there is no human such teacher anywhere in the world who is all-knowing.

You really need to stop and consider all the factors involved when you atribute God as being all-knowing.
 
Yes, god knows everything that you do, and the things that you have not done yet. But he is allowing respite for the future. He shares with man the free will so that man may decide for himself. God already knows what man will do, and that does not interfere with man free will, because it's not linear algebra or probabiliyt, it's godly and far more complicated than our knowledge. There is no contradiction between god's knowledge of the future action of man and man's free will....
 
heflores,

I really don't think you know what your talking about. That's ok though we are all here to learn.

Yes, god knows everything that you do, and the things that you have not done yet. But he is allowing respite for the future.

Please explain what you mean by this how does God allow for respite for the future if he knows everything you do, and the things you haven't done yet?

God already knows what man will do, and that does not interfere with man free will, because it's not linear algebra or probabiliyt

You lost me again here. If God knows what we are to do and he has a divine plan for all beings and creatures then we have no free will, because we are only acting as he wants us to act.

it's godly and far more complicated than our knowledge.

Right so why try and understand it. Guess we should all stop listening to reason and just go back to sacrificing our goats then.

There is no contradiction between god's knowledge of the future action of man and man's free will....

Oh there you go trying to explain stuff again. If this statement is true you have yet to prove how.

Simply put....

God is either a) all-knowing or b) not all-knowing

If he is all knowing then he knows all my decisions before I make them. He may allow me free will to make these choices BUT if there is a divine plan for all beings and all of God's creatures then we don't really have free will.
 
Quote by Horseman42
_____________________________________________
I really don't think you know what your talking about. That's ok though we are all here to learn.
_____________________________________________

Oh boy, I'm exposed, but that's okay, name me one person in this day and age who know what they're talking about, theists and atheists alike.

quote
_____________________________________________
Please explain what you mean by this how does God allow for respite for the future if he knows everything you do, and the things you haven't done yet?
______________________________________________
I told you many time, that god owns time, so his perception of the future is different than ours. This is like trying to explain to you the theory of relativity ^100000000000. Why can't you just accept that you don't know shit and thus will never be able to understand the concept of all knowing.....how about it?


Quote
_____________________________________________
Right so why try and understand it. Guess we should all stop listening to reason and just go back to sacrificing our goats then.
______________________________________________
Your options stinks as much as your logic. You go sacrifice your goat, and I'll go finish raising my kids, making my husband life heaven, discover how to restore urban streams and create more environmentally friendly power dams.


quote
______________________________________________
Oh there you go trying to explain stuff again. If this statement is true you have yet to prove how.

Simply put....
God is either a) all-knowing or b) not all-knowing

______________________________________________

Okay, simply put. Horseman42 is not all knowing, he will never begin to understand a concept called all knowing, because only an all knowing can understand that concept. Horseman42 does not know shit, so he would rather create confusion to appear intelligent, but his all knowing, will let him know one day that he knew shit.

Good enough for you...
 
Last edited:
heflores,

Now your getting a little irrate, and bit nasty.

I told you many time, that god owns time, so his perception of the future is different than ours. This is like trying to explain to you the theory of relativity ^100000000000. Why can't you just accept that you don't know shit and thus will never be able to understand the concept of all knowing.....how about it?

Well I can accept the fact I don't know everything if that what you mean. You have to accept the same though.

Your options stinks as much as your logic. You go sacrifice your goat, and I'll go finish raising my kids, making my husband life heaven, discover how to restore urban streams and create more environmentally friendly power dams.

Right I was being a little sarcastic here. We all want to explore what God is. It's in our nature.

Okay, simply put. Horseman42 is not all knowing, he will never begin to understand a concept called all knowing, because only an all knowing can understand that concept. Horseman42 does not know shit, so he would rather create confusion to appear intelligent, but his all knowing, will let him know one day that he knew shit.

I never said I was all-knowing. There are lot of things I don't know about, and one of them is the nature of God.

If you choose to accept that 2+2=7 that may seam illogical to me and the rest of society, but by all means indulge in your fantasy. I'm only following a natural logical conclusion.

The ideas I have expressed about being all-knowing are hardly my own. There are plenty of intelligent people throughout time that have explored this idea based on these parameters.

Simply I'd like to take credit for them, but quite frankly helfores as you put it I don't know shit.
 
Originally posted by Horseman42

If you choose to accept that 2+2=7 that may seam illogical to me and the rest of society, but by all means indulge in your fantasy. I'm only following a natural logical conclusion.

The ideas I have expressed about being all-knowing are hardly my own. There are plenty of intelligent people throughout time that have explored this idea based on these parameters.

And if we have been created as spidars too, we would have approached a huge female spider for a second of sex and gotten squached to death and thought that was very logical.

The problem of all those scientists is that they are putting themselves in the place of god. They wonder if I was god, how the hell would I know everything and still create something with free will. And they start writing logic for this....With that line of thought, they may confuse a few with them, but they'll never reach any truth....and actually are taking many steps back.
 
1. God's knowledge cannot be wrong.
2. God knows that I will do A.

The rest of your "assumption" is an attempt to prove God does not exist, by choosing a number of choises and limiting God to YOUR idea of Him and these choises you offer.....

1.God's "knowledge" is not wrong, but you have no idea what that knowledge is or what YOU will do with your "free will", .......He does.

2. God.......by His fore-knowledge knows what you will do, of course.
But you are free to "play it out"........He just know what the result will be.
He saw it all in His mind before the foundation of the world.
 
Last edited:
God.......by fore-knowledge knew what you will do.
But you are free to "play it out"........He just knows what the result will be.
He saw it all in His mind before the foundation of the world.
This you have admited.

Lets go into this a little further.


A seed does not fully manifest what it is ....untill harvest time.
The tares were the "seed of discrepency", the wheat were the "seed of God"....while immature, they jump for joy receiving the same life giving benifits of the same rain (Holy Spirit)
Many plant shoots look alike as these do untill they are come up to a certain point.....

At the harvest time....they will manifest that which they were from the beginning.
You see..... God is not the "father" of all men on earth.
Cain was of his father the wicked one., and his children today are too.
How did this happen? God allowed Satan to "create" his own race on earth.
Satan is given powers equal to God in every way, except the power to create something from nothing.
He took something already created.......a Serpent, an animal which was the closest creature to man, that he could also possess.....for it was just an animal, and breed this creature with Eve....to create his own people.

Should God then, as any father.....be responcible for the actions of children that are not His?.....
However God is rich in mercy, but these chose not to follow His words.
As Cain murdered his brother, so shall these manifest in the end who they are.
They all look alike on the outside today.
God's children will "hear" His Word and receive revelation from thier Father as Abel did.
All creation groaneth in trevail, for the manifestation of the Sons of God.
The others will manifest a Son of Perdition...the seed of discrepency.

This can only happen at the end....in the rising of the Son, when He comes with His holy angels they will seperate all in His kingdom.
The light of the Son of Man being revealed, and the rain of the Holy Spirit will cause the seeds tro grow and manifest what they are.
Some will be "Sealed" by the revelation of God in thier foreheads, and the others will be marked in their forehead with the mark of the beast......for turning away from the presence of God after He came to them.


But you go on to say "if there is a divine plan for mankind, then we really don't have free will"

In one way this is correct.
Has not the potter power over the clay?
What if, for His good pleasure, he would with longsuffering endure the disobedience of the vessels of dishonor, fitted for wrath and destuction, to show His glory to be revealed in the vessels of honor.?
Him He predestinated, He did foreknow......

There are three types of beleivers in every group.
1. believers
2. maker-believers
3. un-believers
With fear and trembling we each work out our own "salvation" by proving which one of these we are.

Cain was of his "father the wicked one", and yet God told him.....Just do as your brother, and all will be well.

He may not have been a Son of God, but he had a choise that could have saved him.......he choose wrong.
By this, he proved where his representation was from.......Satan or God.

A Son of God is born again as a son, but under tutors (the Holy Spirit) until he be tested and proved, as every son that comes to God is.
Then he is adopted into the family...and set in authority over everything the Father has.
He can chose the wrong over the right and displease God, never coming to manifestation and living His whole life well under the privilages that were to be his.

The Sons of God before the flood, choose to marry the daughters of Men, (Cain's daughters......unbelievers, yet beautiful)
This angered God and He decided to destroy mankind from the earth.
It is prophecied to be the same way today...the beauty of women increases with every generation.....and the Sons of God in this generation, ......"As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man.

We have free will......but a seed is not fully known to the workers what it is to be......untill the harvest time.
But God knows them that are His.
 
Last edited:
heflores,

And if we have been created as spidars too, we would have approached a huge female spider for a second of sex and gotten squached to death and thought that was very logical.

Not sure how spiders fit in to all this but, whatever.

The problem of all those scientists is that they are putting themselves in the place of god. They wonder if I was god, how the hell would I know everything and still create something with free will. And they start writing logic for this....With that line of thought, they may confuse a few with them, but they'll never reach any truth....and actually are taking many steps back.

How right you are. It's an inate behavour for humans to wonder about things outside of their own backyard. I can see the difficulty in humanity trying to understand God. It's like a spider trying to understand a human.

We have to do the best we can to solve these questions. I can't help but think our very souls might depend on the answer.
 
TheVistor,

2. God.......by His fore-knowledge knows what you will do, of course. But you are free to "play it out"........He just know what the result will be.
He saw it all in His mind before the foundation of the world.

Right so there are those who must be "destined" for hell. As God knew this before he made them. I'm unsure why these people should be punished then, but if you say so.

I'm not sure what your getting at with the story of Adam and Eve.

We have free will......but a seed is not fully known to the workers what it is to be......untill the harvest time. But God knows them that are His.

Ok I can see what you mean. We all have free will, but in God's perception it is an illusion.
 
Right so there are those who must be "destined" for hell. As God knew this before he made them. I'm unsure why these people should be punished then, but if you say so.

I'm not sure what your getting at with the story of Adam and Eve.

==============================

This explains why, they are punished.
You see..... God is not the "father" of all men on earth.
Cain was of his father the wicked one., and his children today are too.
How did this happen? God allowed Satan to "create" his own race on earth.
Satan is given powers equal to God in every way, except the power to create something from nothing.
He took something already created.......a Serpent, an animal which was the closest creature to man, that he could also possess.....for it was just an animal, and breed this creature with Eve....to create his own people.

Should God then, as any father.....be responcible for the actions of children that are not His?.....

They are still under obligation to "obey" Gods Word.

There are three types of beleivers in every group.
1. believers
2. maker-believers
3. un-believers

Believers are believing in Jesus Christ who is the Word

-Believers will obey His word from the heart, which is what God desires in His people...to have a people who worship Him "in Spirit and Truth"
-Make-believers will attempt to obey His Word by obligation, reading the "letter of the Law" and put carnal meaning to it, going through the motions but not having a love of the Word in their hearts.
-Unbelievers will not receive Gods Word at all, but lean unto their own understanding.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by TheVisitor
How did this happen? God allowed Satan to "create" his own race on earth.
Satan is given powers equal to God in every way, except the power to create something from nothing.
He took something already created.......a Serpent, an animal which was the closest creature to man, that he could also possess.....for it was just an animal, and breed this creature with Eve....to create his own people.

Should God then, as any father.....be responcible for the actions of children that are not His?.....

oh my god...You really aught to stop reading those weird theories that you are reading. Those words are very very ignorant and offensive. God created all equally, there are no special children or god and sons and daughters of bitches or serpents. For god sake, stop speaking blaphsemy, if you don't know the answer, just say so, don't make up shit.
 
This is not a "theory".
This is the answer, and every word I said is in the Bible.
This also explains why some will not understand even after being shown the truth.
The Bible has all the answers to life.
 
TheVisitor,

You see..... God is not the "father" of all men on earth.
Cain was of his father the wicked one., and his children today are too

Wait a minute where are you getting this from? Certainly not the Bible, as it teaches we are all Gods children.

God allowed Satan to "create" his own race on earth.

Interesting theory. Although your forgeting God created Satan. So in a then according to what your saying some of us are God's grandchildren if we came from Satan.

for it was just an animal, and breed this creature with Eve....to create his own people.

Again I have to ask where you got this idea from? Eve had sex (in a spiritual way I assume) with the snake? Sounds a little kinky even in a metaphysical sense.

Should God then, as any father.....be responcible for the actions of children that are not His?.....

I think God would still be responsible as they are still part of his "grand design". Or at least in part as they are his grandchildren.

.
They are still under obligation to "obey" Gods Word.

Following what your saying then God is not responsible for Satan's children then why do they have to submit to God's laws?

Can you please tell me where you got these ideas from so I can understand it better in your perspective.
 
The bible speaks of the two creations of Man

The first man was made in the image of God.
God is a spirit. The first man was a spirit man.
A theophany, created by the spoken word. A word body.

There was still no man to "till" the soil.
A man then was also created from the dust of the earth.

We have representation in three different realms.
Were have a Body, A spirt, and a Soul.

When Adam sinned the connection - like an invisible umbilical cord - between the man on earth, and the theophany of the man in heaven......was broken
And He fell into time and death.
That day you will surely die.
A day to God is as a thousand years
Adam died at the age of 950.

Jesus came to "restore" this connection
He like Adam was created by the spoken word of God, in the womb of woman.
He was also theophany, before He was flesh....(unlike us), who come here without knowing "all things" to be tempted in the flesh.
He was the Melchesidec ....who came to Abraham
Jesus said: before Abraham was, I AM.
He came also to manifest God in human flesh.
He was the "first begotton of many brethren.
The Sons of God.

John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 - For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:19 - For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Philippians 2:15 - That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3:1 - Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1 John 3:2 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 
Last edited:
The Bible also talks about the creation of two races, "The Sons of God", and the "Sons of Men".........these are the same as mentioned in the scriptures in other places as the "children of the kingdom" and the "children of the world"

Jesus always spoke to the multitudes in parables, and said the revelation of these parables which to the "children of the kingdom" only......the bible is written the same way.

Matthew 13:11 - He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

This is in the Beginning....,

Life was created on earth , each species being higher and more complex than the last, with animal life being formed up until one was created that could reflect God's image, Man. Species have a certain ability to adapt to their environment but not to change from one species into another, for the scriptures say, " they were commanded each to bring forth of their own kind. It has been proven however, that two species that are lets say, next to one another on the scale of creation can mix and produce a hybrid that was not in the original creation. One example is the Mule, a cross between a Donkey and a Horse. Now this brings me to the mystery of the Serpent's seed.

In the garden of God, the Serpent walked upright, talked to Eve, and eventually beguiled her into disbelieving God's word and believing the devil's lie. The true meaning of the word sin is "unbelief", This Serpent however was merely an animal, and therefore could be possessed and used by the devil, for it did not have a soul like a Man. The Serpent was the closest member of the animal species to Man. Adam was created in the image of God, an attribute of God's own genes, a Son of God. And like a son grows up to reflect the image of his father, Adam was to reflect God's image , to manifest God in this physical realm. He was created the first of a new species, higher in power and authority than the angels," The Sons of God".

Eve was not in the original creation, but was taken from Adam, a by-product, this is why she could be deceived. Lucifer had stated "he desired a kingdom more glorious than Michael's" , and said "I will ascend up and set as God and be worshipped as God". The scriptures say he deceived one-third of the angels in heaven, and when he spoke through the serpent to deceive Eve he was trying to carry out his plans to destroy God's future kingdom and create his own "Satan's Eden ", where he sits as God, and is worshipped as God, by all the peoples of the earth. Science, education, and modern civilization are all a part of his plan to get people to lean on their own understanding, instead of faith in God, who is the Word (1 john 1:1-14 ).

The bible says "God himself came down in the cool of the evening, and talked with Adam". As he listened to the words God spoke he was partaking (eating ) of the Tree of Life, who is God (In the book of Proverbs it says, "the words of a righteous man are as the fruits of the tree of life")The tree of the knowledge of good and evil , was the serpent , which they were commanded not to eat of least they die. ( a mixed tree containing the truth mixed with lies) The best lie is the one that contains 99% of the truth, and only 1% lie. The Serpent said to Eve, "surely you shall not die, but your eyes shall be opened and you shall be like gods". Adam was created by the spoken Word. Satan can not create something from nothing, he can only pervert something God has already created, so he used the serpent to seduce Eve and thereby create a hybrid race. It's been documented many times that a woman can have sex with two different men within a 24 hour period and conceive by both of them ,giving birth to twins, both of different fathers.

The scriptures say "Cain was of his father the wicked one", And after being with the serpent, Eve went to show Adam this that she'd learned, the bible says" Adam knew his wife Eve, and she bore him a son, Cain, and then bare his brother Abel. So there are two sons representing two separate races, The Sons of God, and the Sons of Men. Abel, being a true Son of God, received revelation from God about what had happened in the garden , that it had been blood (not an apple or something) that had caused the fall and had driven them out, and it would take blood, the blood of an innocent one, to bring them back to an unfallen state. Since the whole human race had fell into sin, he saw it would take a kinsman redeemer (Jesus Christ), God coming down as a man to die for our sins, releasing His Holy Spirit to come back upon humanity as a tutor and guide them back into all truth . In the new testament it says " they who are led by the spirit of God, these are called the Sons of God".

Cain received no such revelation, being of the serpent's seed, and offered to God a selection of the grains of the field , which were the fruits of his own labors, and his offering was rejected. After Abel was killed, Adam had another son through Eve and his name was Seth. Through Seth's lineage God's line was restored. These Sons of God lived by faith , they were commanded to be separate and not marry amongst the unbelievers of Cain's lineage. They lived enormous lifespans because they walked with God by faith, so much until one (Enoch) walked so close with God that he was translated and was not found. The lifespans of Cain's lineage are not recorded in the bible, they didn't walk by faith in God but leaned to their own understanding, and builded cities , and were the artificers of brass and iron , and the creators of musical instruments. The two races stayed separate until the Sons of God, saw the daughters of men that they were fair , and took themselves wives. This then mixed the races together, and God grieved he ever made man and decided to destroy the world.
 
Back
Top