Is there Free Will?

[Horseman42]

TheVisitor,

First off I'm not sure what Bible or Religion you are using to support all these beliefs because most of what you just said I was not taught.

This is not to say it's untrue, but let me see if I follow you...

In the garden of God, the Serpent walked upright, talked to Eve, and eventually beguiled her into disbelieving God's word and believing the devil's lie.

Never heard of the "snake" walking upright. Even if it did it lacks the correct physiology to mate with a human. I guess a possessed one might be different though.

The best lie is the one that contains 99% of the truth, and only 1% lie.

Ok I can believe this.

Satan can not create something from nothing, he can only pervert something God has already created, so he used the serpent to seduce Eve and thereby create a hybrid race. It's been documented many times that a woman can have sex with two different men within a 24 hour period and conceive by both of them ,giving birth to twins, both of different fathers.

Right so Eve had sex with the snake. That evil bitch. Please quote to me from the Bible (if that's what your using) where it says Eve had sex with the sake, because I don't remember reading that part.

These Sons of God lived by faith , they were commanded to be separate and not marry amongst the unbelievers of Cain's lineage.

Right so we have two "races" of people that come from Cain's and from Seth.

Just wondering who did Cain and Seth take as wives? Where did the extra people come from?

then mixed the races together, and God grieved he ever made man and decided to destroy the world.

Right so when the world was destroyed (I assume you mean the flood here) we became the decendants of Noah and his children.

Did that not set things straight at this point?

I'm a little uncertain about the story of Adam and Eve much less a lot of the "extra details" you included in the story.

There are many questions like why did God allow for all this to happen like this? If God is all-knowing he must have known that Eve would have fornicated with a serpent. Why would God allow the snake in the garden in the first place? Why have such a temptation in the garden in the first place? Why did God want two races of man?

 

[TheVisitor]

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Never heard of the "snake" walking upright. Even if it did it lacks the correct physiology to mate with a human. I guess a possessed one might be different though.
===========
It was not a "snake"It was changed into a snake AFTER it impregnated Eve.
Read this......

Genesis 3:1
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat(partake of) of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden,(God was the tree of life....the Word, the Serpent was the tree of good and evil, truth mixed with lies....like the denominations today) God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die(The lie) 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened,(they had a holy spirit veil over them, they would lose this and no longer be innocent) and ye shall be as gods,(They had been told to multiply, but not how....they were brought forth by the power of the spoken word.....not made with hands. Satan was telling them how to "create" life by sex...not the intended way, but still creating and therefore being as gods) knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food,(spiritual knowledge...Jesus said his flesh, was the Word we should "eat" remember?) and that it was pleasant to the eyes,(there is a way that seemeth right to a man, but the ways thereof is death) and a tree to be desired to make one wise,(she thought he knew something God had not told her....he had her right there..) she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat,(She had Sex, with him) and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. (she showed Adam, and had sex with him)7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. "


Genesis 3:11
"Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? 12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. 13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

God cursed her were she sinned, in her childbearing...and the Serpent was changed into a snake...

These things have been hidden in the scriptures since the foundation of the world......and are the basis for understanding the mystery of God..which is Christ in you, the hope of glory, and the mystery of iniquity, which is the spirit which worketh now in the children of the world..

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Just wondering who did Cain and Seth take as wives? Where did the extra people come from?
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Women were not recorded when born, only sons....because thats who the bloodline is passed through.
Thats why even though Eve was Cains mother, He was called in the scripture: "of his father the wicked one"
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[SnakeLord]

This is two threads i've seen this in so far. Ok, you'd like to tell the world you're a virgin... good on you, but i fail to see any validity in what you say, and fail to see it's importance in a topic such as: "Is there free will". Ok, Jesus too was a virgin- perhaps this is where the mental problems come from? Or perhaps this is why we're all going to hell? We got laid? Shocker.

 

[TheVisitor]

First off I'm not sure what Bible or Religion you are using to support all these beliefs because most of what you just said I was not taught.
===================
The King James version., Of course you've never heard this.....
It's not a religion, it is the Word of God, made known by the revelation of the Son of Man today, Jesus Christ.

He promised to come in the fullness of the book, when He returned and reveal the mysteries that have been sealed since the foundation of the world, and saved for Him to reveal to His people in this day.

Rev 10:1
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: 2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

This is the Son of Man, Jesus Christ being revealed from heaven today....right now.
(If you can believe it)

Rev 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

He reveals these things when he comes....to complete the work the mystery of God should to be finished, which is ...the forming of Christ in us.
His Bride needs this understanding , a crystal clear revelation of who He is and who they are to make herself ready today for the marriage.

Rev. 19:7
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

 

[SnakeLord]

The King James version., Of course you've never heard this.....
It's not a religion, it is the Word of God, made known by the revelation of the Son of Man today, Jesus Christ.

You have proof of this or are you just making groundless, basless assumptions? I thought so.. Sorry virgin boy, you need more than that.

 

[TheVisitor]

If God is all-knowing he must have known that Eve would have fornicated with a serpent. Why would God allow the snake in the garden in the first place?
==============
Rev 18:2
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
For one, to create a bird cage.....bodies of flesh for satan's angels to be sent to hell in.........and the age old question of "free will" answered.
And many, many other reasons....these questions cannot be answered with a single senrtence.



Why have such a temptation in the garden in the first place?
==============
God had attributes to express....To be a saviour, a healer, a father, ect....and to show His mighty works in the world.
It was all in His mind from the foundation of the world.

Romans 9:22 - What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

These things are Spiritualy discerned.....
Unless you be born again, you will in no wise see the kingdom of God.....You must be "quickened of the Spirit to see and compare spiritual things with spiritual.
For what things knoweth a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him.
Also likewise what things of God can be revealed, save by the spirit of god.

1 Cor. 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1 Cor. 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God


1 Cor. 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God

1 Cor 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

 

[Horseman42]

TheVisitor,

It was not a "snake"It was changed into a snake AFTER it impregnated Eve.

Ok I see what you mean here. I wonder what the Serpent looked like before it was turned into a snake.

So was it a real serpent or one possessed by the devil? It seams a little unfair for God to curse the serpent if it was only possessed.

she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat,(She had Sex, with him)

So attributing eating with sex. How interesting almost Freudian. Sorry I can't assume this. This isn't how it's writen.

The King James version., Of course you've never heard this.....

Yeah the same Bible I have in my hands, of course I've never heard of it. Making assumptions again.

For one, to create a bird cage.....bodies of flesh for satan's angels to be sent to hell in.........and the age old question of "free will" answered. And many, many other reasons....these questions cannot be answered with a single senrtence

Right so you don't know the answers either for why God allowed the serpent in the garden. Come on can't you make some more shit up? Surely you can form some opinion?

He reveals these things when he comes....to complete the work the mystery of God should to be finished, which is ...the forming of Christ in us.
His Bride needs this understanding , a crystal clear revelation of who He is and who they are to make herself ready today for the marriage.

What are you saying by this is Jesus getting married? Please stop talking in metaphors just put it in plain English and then quote the Bible if you need to.

So what's the deal with the flood are we are pure now or what? I mean that was God's intent right to start anew.

 

[Horseman42]

SnakeLord,

good on you, but i fail to see any validity in what you say, and fail to see it's importance in a topic such as: "Is there free will".

Yeah sorry were a little off topic here. Love your comments their priceless!

 

[athought]

How were we created?

Digest this carefully:

"The volition of the creature is free; this is a law of their existence and the Lord cannot violate his own law; were he to do that, he would cease to be God. He has placed life and death before his children, and it is for them to choose. If they choose life, they receive the blessing of life; if they choose death, they must abide the penalty. This is a law which has always existed from all eternity, and will continue to exist throughout all the eternities to come. Every intelligent being must have the power of choice, and God brings forth the results of the acts of his creatures to promote his Kingdom and subserve his purposes in the salvation and exaltation of his children." (John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, p. 341)

"He then observed that Satan was generally blamed for the evils which we did, but if he was the cause of all our wickedness, men could not be condemned. The devil could not compel mankind to do evil; all was voluntary. Those who resisted the Spirit of God, would be liable to be led into temptation, and then the association of heaven would be withdrawn from those who refused to be made partakers of such great glory. God would not exert any compulsory means, and the devil could not." (TPJS, 187)

"Temptations without imply desires within; and rather than say, 'How powerfully the devil tempts,' we might say, 'How strongly I am inclined.' God never forces us to do right, and Satan has no power to force us to do wrong." (Sterling W. Sill, April Conf. 1970)

A few other thoughts in my feeble attempts at self-expression:

What if the creation of man were really his organization into a being capable of altering his environment? What if the essence of each being has existed from eternity, just as God has existed from eternity? I know that such ideas have been distributed, but may not be widely known.

Ponder the inclinations mentioned above and the possibility that the very heart of each individual has ever been, and will ever be, and that God has simply, yet beautifully given each one the chance to act in his or her own sphere of potential.

 

[Horseman42]

athought,

He has placed life and death before his children, and it is for them to choose. If they choose life, they receive the blessing of life; if they choose death, they must abide the penalty.

Who would really choose death if they had the choice? If you say we will be sent to hell for not following Gods commands, then it's not really free.

It's like someone who has a gun to our heads saying "obey my laws or else". What kind of free will is this?

What if the essence of each being has existed from eternity, just as God has existed from eternity?

I might be able to buy this to some degree, afterall aparently our souls live forever according to what I've been taught to believe.

 

[athought]

Originally posted by Horseman42
athought,


1.
Who would really choose death if they had the choice? If you say we will be sent to hell for not following Gods commands, then it's not really free.

It's like someone who has a gun to our heads saying "obey my laws or else". What kind of free will is this?

2.
I might be able to buy this to some degree, afterall aparently our souls live forever according to what I've been taught to believe.

1: "A parent may [discipline] a child, and justly, too, because he stole an apple; whereas if the child had asked for the apple, and the parent had given it, the child would have eaten it with a better appetite; there would have been no [punishment]; all the pleasure of the apple would have been secured, all the misery of stealing lost. This principle will justly apply to all of God's dealings with His children. Everything that God gives us is lawful and right; and it is proper that we should enjoy His gifts and blessings whenever and wherever He is disposed to bestow; but if we should seize upon those same blessings and enjoyments without law, without revelation, without commandment, those blessings and enjoyments would prove cursings and vexations in the end, and we should have to lie down in sorrow and wailings of everlasting regret. But in obedience there is joy and peace unspotted, unalloyed; and as God has designed our happiness—and the happiness of all His creatures, he never has—He never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to His people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which He has designed, and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his law"
(TPJS, p. 255-6).

Although God created us as we are now, giving us the ability to act as we choose, yet, as every action and reaction in nature is governed by law, so every choice we make has a set and definite consequence. If one assumes the consequence to be arbitrarily decided, it seems unfair. If one assumes however that the consequence is eternal as any other law of nature, it seems that God is kind to share his wisdom with us. Thus he says, "Obey the eternal laws which I know, or else the effect of these laws will be your punishment". God wants us to progress and obtain every blessing that he has, but we can only get there if we learn what he has learned. Some will choose never to learn. In this sense they are dammed because they cannot progress, progress being the result of following correct knowledge.

Also, the death spoken of is a figure, a symbol of choices that lead the unwitting to unhappiness and separation from God. No one chooses that end purposefully; we simply deceive ourselves or allow ourselves to be deceived into thinking that we know, or can find by trial and error, where the greatest good for us lies. Parents often find that certain children seem by their very nature more rebellious than others, and do not wish to listen to wise counsel. They think their parents foolish. We've all done it. Some continue to make foolish choices their whole lives, others will listen, others weave back and forth. There are all grades of people and everyone will receive in accordance with their performance, and their desires. Hell is a state of being (fire and brimstone being the symbols of it).

2: Let me know if you have any more thoughts on the eternal nature of the individual. Believing this truth is the only rational way I have seen to escape determinism.

3: I also liked what you said a while back, it's so true:

We all want to explore what God is. It's in our nature.

Thanks for being polite in your response as well. Most of us have a tendency not to be. One more thing to learn...

Anyway, though I've stumbled onto this forum (I was just doing a google on mitosis), I like it. I'll be back another day. Probably after Easter. I'm also working full-time and taking classes at night, so understandably I don't always make as much time for diversion as I would like to. Please be patient for my responses. Have a good weekend!

 

[TheVisitor]

Surely you can form some opinion?
==========
No, when it comes to the scripture I dont "form" opinions.....
What I say I know.


Please stop talking in metaphors
==========
Thats how the Word is written.....if it's still just metaphors to you, I can't reveal it to you.
I can lead you to the door.....but you have to go in.


I'm not sure what Bible (The King James version)
===================
or Religion ............, I wasn't saying you've never heard of the king James bible......I was saying you've never heard this message, and that it's not a religion.

 

[SnakeLord]

Yeah sorry were a little off topic here. Love your comments their priceless!

Well i retract my statement anyway. I just put it there to prove i have free will

1: "A parent may whip a child, and justly, too, because he stole an apple; whereas if the child had asked for the apple, and the parent had given it, the child would have eaten it with a better appetite;

Anyone ever hits, whips, kicks, slaps, etc a child near me i'll punch his lights out. There is no justification in hitting something a tenth of your size because he took an apple without asking. That's what we call 'making a mountain out of a molehill' <--- Same as the Noah story I sit down and explain things to my child. Not once have i ever even raised my voice and anyone who has ever even considered raising their hands to children should burn for eternity in the pits of hell. Think the child actually learns anything valuable by being smacked? Or is it just a persons need to feel superior that makes them beat their children? It should be:

1: "A parent may talk to their child. If they do so the child wont steal the apple and thus the parent and child both have better appetites."

promote that happiness which He has designed

Smacking a child gives happiness? To who? Don't tell me it's important to teach them yada yada yada. My daughter never misbehaves, never shouts, never steals, never does anything bad and all i've ever done is talk to her as a loving father. God's an idiot and so are you if you think there's any justification in your above statement. If that's how god 'deals with his children' i say fuck him.

Also, the death spoken of is a figure, a symbol of choices that lead the unwitting to unhappiness and separation from God. No one chooses that end purposefully; we simply deceive ourselves or allow ourselves to be deceived into thinking that we know, or can find by trial and error, where the greatest good for us lies. Parents often find that certain children seem by their very nature more rebellious than others, and do not wish to listen to wise counsel. They think their parents foolish. We've all done it. Some continue to make foolish choices their whole lives, others will listen, others weave back and forth. There are all grades of people and everyone will receive in accordance with their performance, and their desires. Hell is a state of being (fire and brimstone being the symbols of it).

So instead of allowing a person to think for themselves and find their own answers we must just accept your version of what/who god is? People do that with their kids ffs. Stamp them the minute they're born: Circumcision, baptism, barmitzvah- it's like cow stamping: "You are now the exclusive property of god". If god is the truth why not just let a kid find it for themselves instead of having to force it upon them and whipping them if they so much as disagree. If we deceive ourselves or are foolish god should be big enough to help out. Unless of course he wants his children to burn for eternity, (fire and brimstone)? Sounds like your typical modern day parent.

Surely you can form some opinion?

==========

No, when it comes to the scripture I dont "form" opinions.....
What I say I know.


Please stop talking in metaphors

==========

Thats how the Word is written.....if it's still just metaphors to you, I can't reveal it to you.

I can lead you to the door.....but you have to go in.

Self righteous asshole.

 

[athought]

About Whuppings

SnakeLord:

I failed to give the complete context of that quote, and for that I apoligize. It was written in the 1800s when lickings were commonly accepted as just punishment for even minor infractions. You may change the analogy to fit more with our times and ways as seems fit. I wouldn't whip my child either. My mother raised me without "whuppings" or beatings of any sort and I grew up just fine.

Now, go back and read what I wrote in that perspective please. Again, my apologies for lack of context. Please ask for clarification next time if something bothers you.

 

[SnakeLord]

Well it still remains a pertinent point. It comes down to a 'do as i say or get an eternal smack in the head'. Same thing, larger scale.

But in obedience there is joy and peace unspotted, unalloyed; and as God has designed our happiness—and the happiness of all His creatures, he never has—He never will institute an ordinance or give a commandment to His people that is not calculated in its nature to promote that happiness which He has designed, and which will not end in the greatest amount of good and glory to those who become the recipients of his law

Obedience is a hell of a word to use. What is there to obey?? The writings of an old shepherd? Where is the proof that any of those words stemmed from a mighty creator? The answer to that question= nowhere. As humans you should understand our need for facts as should god. You can't just expect everyone to 'obey or die' when the only thing you have is a book written for a different social system several millennia ago.

The same principle applies with your whipping children quote. At that time it may very well have seemed the 'right thing to do' when concerning children. Look back several years to when people thought black folk existed to be slaves. Times change, society changes and the structure by which mankind lives also changes.

In those times there was no police force, but a 'law' was written by men. In those times it was extremely important and worthwhile but nowadays do we really need a life lived through fear? Of course... this 'run by fear' factor is a part of human nature: Pay your mortgage or lose your house, pay your bills or we switch off your electricity. I can understand the fear factor with companies and people who stand to lose out but what does god have to lose?

The openly threatening manner with which religion subscribes is outdated and is the act of fools with no understanding of society. Nowhere is there any decent answer to why god isn't just upfront and straightforward. He has felt the need through all of human time to be as elusive as possible. He sends people to talk for him, talks through bushes, talks in your head. He expects that we must all want to find him but leaves no contact address. You can accept the word of ancient people as proof, many can't. As i've said before countless times i don't see how you can just pick and choose. There's ancient scriptures talking of alien visitors, ancient scriptures talking of many gods other than your own. How do you know what the truth is? The fact is, you don't. Whatever works best for you is nice and i hope you're happy but if you ask someone to just obey a possible fantasy figure you're asking a bit too much of those who expect more from their own mortal lives.

 

[Horseman42]

TheVisitor,

No, when it comes to the scripture I dont "form" opinions.....

Right so reading between the lines is alright. If I thought to "she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat" (the fruit being the soap) meant to go and have a bath would I be any more right than you?

Thats how the Word is written.....if it's still just metaphors to you, I can't reveal it to you.
I can lead you to the door.....but you have to go in.

So you can't really explain anything? The point is I don't mind the metaphors but please explain them too me. I wouldn't want to do something like read between the lines, because than I'm just making shit up.

 

[Horseman42]

athought,

1: "A parent may whip a child, and justly, too, because he stole an apple; whereas if the child had asked for the apple, and the parent had given it, the child would have eaten it with a better appetite;

All Christians I've spoke to always use this example to explain divine justice. Honestly you should put it in the proper perspective. If God is the parent and we steal an apple we are not just given a "whipping" (which as SnakeLord has pointed is unfair in itself), but sent to hell for all eternity to be torchered.

Where is the love here? How is that fair for the child? How can the child "learn" from the mistake? This is what I'm arguing.

Hell is a state of being (fire and brimstone being the symbols of it).

This is exactly what the Bible teaches, but I can perhaps go along with this notion. Why do you think Hell is only a state of being?

2: Let me know if you have any more thoughts on the eternal nature of the individual. Believing this truth is the only rational way I have seen to escape determinism.

Can you please explain determinism. It's been over 5 years since I studied philosophy.

Hell is a state of being (fire and brimstone being the symbols of it).

 

[SnakeLord]

Why argue? We're going to burn in hell while Visitor with all his glory and wisdom is going to heaven to meet up with big daddy.

Here is Gods/Jesus words on what to do if you're a sinner, (many people dispute the statement that we'll burn in hell. They argue its not mentioned anywhere in the bible but is in fact made up by athiests)

Mark 9:42

"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell where the fire never goes out. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of god with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell..."

If there is a god he sounds like more of an asshole than the snake. He sure dont sound like much of a father. He wants perfect children but fucked up when creating them. If anyone's to blame for the mistakes it's him.

Good day.

 

[Michael]

We're way off the topic

I still do not see a logical rebuttal argument that disputes the claim that if there is an all knowing god then we do not have free will. This implies that if you believe in an all knowing god (and there may be one) then we do not have free will. Pulling the conversation into tangents about different races of this and that or the ever expanding universe as interpreted from some sorted Quranic writing or Biblical mumble-jumble has nothing to do with the logical argument presented. Wishing to refute the initial premise won’t work either. I didn’t intend for a debate on personal debates and beleifes.

I thought he argument was a priori and therefore should be answered as such in turn.

My conclusion is that the argument this person has put forth is true then and if there is an all knowing god then we do not have free will.

My personal belief is atheist agnostic. God is unknowable and I don’t believe in one. A person can also be theistic agnostic. Neither of these last two statements has anything to do with the initial argument.

So unless someone has a logical rebuttal then lets end this topic here.

Thanks for the few intellengent and insightful comments
MII

 

[MShark]

Michael:

Defining the power or knowledge of God seems to me rediculus from both thiest and atheistic perspectives.

For me free will is one of the major indications that there is more to me than what can be explained by human understanding of existance.

I do not see how a person can belive in "free will" and be an athiest. If there is anyone who has a belief system that encompasses both free will and athiesim I would be interested in hearing about it.