is there evidence for alien abductions etc.?

[Gustav]

Temporal lobe epilespy accounts for many abduction cases. Night terrors, and hypnogogic dreams some of the rest, with plain old fibs narrowing it down even further. If only people would accept the cause of their experience was mundane where it can be demonstrated to be, there would be a lot less other cases to look at, and that would be beneficial. But while people shout 'abduction' when we have an explanation, the whole thing becomes discredited.

Time for the believers to be far more stringent in what they will accept as evidence, if they ever wish to be taken seriously.

ok
you appear to be familiar with abduction cases
what are the...."a lot less other cases to look at"?
do you have any particular ones in mind?
thanks

 

[spuriousmonkey]

do you believe in the scientific explanation for 'mental illness'.

There is no such thing as mental illness. That is just a just collection of rather different afflictions.

 

[Light]

debunkery by association
the issue is abduction not ghosts

I clearly stated it was only a simple example of expecting people to believe what someone said - just because they claim it to be true.
then....

STUPID, CRAZY LIARS: This trick consists of simple slander. Anyone who reports anything which displeases the skeptic will be accused of incompetence, mental illness or dishonesty, or some combination of the three without a single shred of fact to support the accusations.

No trick or slander intended. Just asking for facts, evidence, proof. I've not attributed it to ANY of the qualities you listed above!!! Not a single one of them. Sorry, but you are the one without a single shred of fact to support what you just said above.

All I'm asking for is something beyond "he said..." or "she said..." since I've never met and do not know the people who've made claims of abduction, how can I possibly simply accept what they say as evidence? They could be scholars of high acclaim, or poor demented souls, or very trustworthy individuals, or town drunks, or someone you would never doubt if you knew them. I cannot possibly judge their credibility based on their story alone.

 

[Gustav]

There is no such thing as mental illness. That is just a just collection of rather different afflictions.

pointless exercise in semantics
what is really noteworthy tho is the obvious contradiction
on the one hand the concept of "mental illness" is denied.
on the other, it is acknowledged

why?

 

[Gustav]

I clearly stated it was only a simple example of expecting people to believe what someone said - just because they claim it to be true.
then.....

my point stands. you avoid the issue

No trick or slander intended. Just asking for facts, evidence, proof. I've not attributed it to ANY of the qualities you listed above!!! Not a single one of them. Sorry, but you are the one without a single shred of fact to support what you just said above..

it is just a matter of semantics

My point is that that far too many believers in abductions are pretty much like a child.

i know your intent. an adult that is like a child is a retard. retards are incompetent. mental illness could be a cause of the retardation

All I'm asking for is something beyond "he said..." or "she said..." since I've never met and do not know the people who've made claims of abduction, how can I possibly simply accept what they say as evidence?

nothing wrong with that. yet..............

 

[Gustav]

..........we have to specify what constitutes evidence in alien abduction cases.

lets look at what skinwalker has to say...

I think the quality of evidence in science depends upon a few things: that it be potentially falsified, that it be testable, and that it be reproducible. In science, evidence that doesn't live up to that is of low quality and should always be suspect. My field is archaeology, so I encounter evidence that is questionable all the time, but it is usually presented clearly as provisional. Often, several hypotheses exist to explain a given set of data and, over time, one hypothesis will emerge as a favored one as new data is discovered.

can we do this? there is nothing wrong with ending this topic with nothing more than a few hypotheses. there is no need to indulge in any definitive conclusions if unwarranted and unsubstantiated

 

[spuriousmonkey]

There is no such thing as mental illness. That is just a just collection of rather different afflictions.

The point is that alien abduction is an event singular in its cause, mental illness isn't.

Can you live with that distinction?

 

[Gustav]

absolutely

 

[Gustav]

Science has a set of rules which have been developed over centuries. If we don't follow these rules it isn't science....

In the same way one of the requirements of science is that it be repeatable - how are you going to repeat an alien abduction - or that you can analyse the phenomenom with repeatable precision and methodology. When that is done it does seem that there are so often much simpler explanations to account for the observations: explanations that have been validated by the scientific method.

i find this extremely shortsighted

In the same manner, insist on classes of evidence that are impossible to obtain. For example, declare that unidentified aerial phenomena may be considered real only if we can bring them into laboratories to strike them with hammers and analyze their physical properties. Disregard the accomplishments of the inferential sciences--astronomy, for example, which gets on just fine without bringing actual planets, stars, galaxies and black holes into its labs and striking them with hammers.

ophiolite insists on repeating a supernova. anything less than that negates the phenomena and could probably explained away.....say hallucinations

 

[SkinWalker]

You cannot deny that there are many, demonstrable, explanations for so-called alien abductions. The models that Phlog listed are probably very comprehensive. We can say, with certainty, that sleep paralysis exists; that people intentionaly lie; that people become deluded. These are all things that many of us have encountered first hand in ourselves or others (by the way, delusion need not be a complex audio-visual hallucination - it can simply be a trick the mind plays on us when it cannot properly process information).

What we don't have any demonstration for is actual "alien abduction." There is no real, tangible evidence for the hypothesis. There are those that would say, "look at the mountain of reports," but this wouldn't be evidence it would be hypothesis for an unexplained mental condition. I use mental "condition" not in the clinical sense, but in the sense that this event is not a part of anyone elses experience but the individual in the vast majority of the cases that are reported.

Sleep paralysis has been verified in laboratory studies of patients with sleep disorders, etc., liars get exposed every day, and delusions have also been clinically proven to exist. But no verification exists with paranormal and mystical concepts such as alien abduction.

Now I realize that the believer in alien abduction is imediately offended by the association with "paranormal" and "mystical," but to the non-believer, there really is no distinction. We're talking about an alleged event that defies all normal and natural laws of science as it is currently known. I'm not above remaining provisional on the subject. Much in the same way many religions tout their doctrines and miracles as "factual," the alien abduction believers consider their "doctrine" as factual. And, interestingly enough, mainstream religion objects to association with the supernatural, paranormal, etc in the same way alien-abductionists do.

Scientific method is quite clear, if the examination of the alleged event doesn't lend itself appropriately to testing or the hypothetico-deductive process, then it is summarily discarded as a hypothesis until such time tests are devised that can be potentially falsified.

Alien-abductionists cling to the significance of anecdote (as do religions and cults around the world in "testimonials"), hypnosis (demonstrated to be highly unreliable), and alleged artifacts recovered from the bodies of alleged adbuctees (artifacts which have yet to be submitted for any impartial analyses as far as I know).

Alien abductions might be occurring, but there simply isn't legitimate evidence to believe it. You can't discredit the scientific method as a means to investigate the alleged phenomenon simply because it doesn't give the results you want. And if it *is* giving the results, I challenge anyone to demonstrate the data and the methodolgy used to obtain them.

 

[Gustav]

You cannot deny that there are many, demonstrable, explanations for so-called alien abductions. The models that Phlog listed are probably very comprehensive. We can say, with certainty, that sleep paralysis exists; that people intentionaly lie; that people become deluded. These are all things that many of us have encountered first hand in ourselves or others (by the way, delusion need not be a complex audio-visual hallucination - it can simply be a trick the mind plays on us when it cannot properly process information).

i have so far, neither claimed nor denied anything. phlog's models are not being disputed because i understand that most et cases do have a mundane explanation. for instance, i have experienced sleep paralysis. i notice the symptoms are akin to those reported in typical abduction reports. yet i will not take a leap into the unknown by claiming this or that without attempting to understand the mechanisms that underly the experience.

the scientific explanation works in my particular case. it makes a lot of sense. regardless...it would be presumptous and irrational to assume that this is indeed the case across the board.

are there abductions reports that do not include phlog's models? he seems to think so. lets consider them if presented

 

[Gustav]

We're talking about an alleged event that defies all normal and natural laws of science as it is currently known.

elaborate. what normal and natural laws of science? what would be abnormal and unnatural laws of science?

perhaps it would help if the players and activities that occur within this"alleged event" be fleshed out. then give me the alleged violations of natural laws.

 

[Gustav]

lemme share
i fantasized about demon rather than et
i indicated that i would kick it's sorry ass if i could have moved

/cackle

 

[duendy]

Therer is a conundrum in mainstream science . it is the mind/body problem and the Hard Problem. a problem--not being patronizing i am just trying to simplify what i see is complex--is something NOT understood......so in other words it's a problem about 'what is consciousness in its entireity?'....notjust what can be measured such as neurons, electrical activity, checmicals etc, but the INNEr feeling, and/or more philosophicaly put 'qualia'....such as how do i FEEl/perceive the redness of a rose, and so on

Along with this is the rather very taboo subject of the Mental Health...Industry. There again we see the limitations of the scientific model big style. how its modus operandi can lead to such an unprecedented scam!

UNTIL we begin facing that etc, we cant be utterly reliant on the scientific method to solely help us understand in a deep way what all of the abduction and parnormal phenomena, etc., is/means...

 

[Gustav]

What we don't have any demonstration for is actual "alien abduction." There is no real, tangible evidence for the hypothesis. There are those that would say, "look at the mountain of reports," but this wouldn't be evidence it would be hypothesis for an unexplained mental condition. I use mental "condition" not in the clinical sense, but in the sense that this event is not a part of anyone elses experience but the individual in the vast majority of the cases that are reported.

are you just acknowledging that the initial or perhaps the only report of an alien abduction is almost always anecdotal in nature?

 

[Gustav]

Therer is a conundrum in mainstream science . it is the mind/body problem and the Hard Problem....

those are decent points yet irrelevant to this discussion. the topic post could probably be resolved within the constraints of the scientific method so artfully presented.

philosophizing can only muddle the issue at hand

again, can you present me with a few abduction cases that you find compelling?
i must confess i have absolutely no familiarity with these kind of cases

 

[Gustav]

Occasionally, people claim to be snatched from public places, with witnesses, or even in groups. This provides the potential for independent corroboration, but physical evidence is extremely rare. A few examples of stained clothing have been brought back; and some of the implants have reportedly been removed from abductees' bodies, but they usually mysteriously disappear. Skeptical Inquirer Magazine, May/June 1998

so i must ask the experts here, what cases are being referenced?
is blackmore acknowledging there is physical evidence? if so, what?
thanks

 

[Light]

There is no such thing as mental illness. That is just a just collection of rather different afflictions.

Oh, really? Then just what would you call this:

"ATLANTA - A woman accused of helping her husband kill their 8-year-old to rid her of a demon pleaded guilty to murder Tuesday.

Valerie Carey, 29, was sentenced to life in prison for the Jan. 19, 2004, stabbing and strangling of Quimani Carey at a downtown Atlanta motel.

Carey and her husband, Christopher, were found walking down busy Piedmont Avenue naked in freezing temperatures with their two other children, then 6 and 2, on their shoulders.

Police discovered Quimani on the floor of their motel room. Pages ripped from the Bible were thrown on and around her body, and her arms were broken.

Prosecutors said Christopher Carey had stabbed her with a knife until it broke, while she tried to fight back.

Valerie Carey held the girl while her husband broke her arms, and then she strangled Quimani.

Valerie Carey believed that her family would be transported to a planet inhabited by red dragons after Quimani was killed, and spread out her arms waiting to fly off, according to one of her attorneys, Susan Wardell.

Mother had a troubled history
After undergoing treatment while in prison, Valerie Carey, who has a long history of mental illness, said she now understands what happened and mourns Quimani's death, blaming it on her husband.

"He kept us isolated and trapped in a different world," she told the judge. "That was my baby. He took her from me and ruined my life."

The family kept moving into cheap motels and homeless shelters, where the children were deprived of food and bathing, Fulton prosecutor Anna Green said.

She added that Christopher Carey also beat the children, especially Quimani, who asked to go to school.

As part of a plea agreement, Valerie Carey, agreed to testify against her 31-year-old husband.

He remains jailed without bond and faces a possible death penalty unless he agrees to plead guilty."

 

[Gustav]

hmm
the primary symptom appears to be delusionary thought processes that are obviously psychotic
therefore i diagnose the bitch to be suffering from schizophrenia

think of it like this

ice cream = mental illness

rocky road = depression
vanilla fudge = schizophrenia

easy enough?

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Oh, really? Then just what would you call this:

I'll quote myself for a change then:

The point is that alien abduction is an event singular in its cause, mental illness isn't.