Is sufi an atheist?

[Bruce Wayne]

boy! don't you read sufi himself, he says he believes in what he understands of allah as referred to in the qur'an. you keep suggesting that one needs to believe in your conception of "deity" to be a muslim. no, one does not!

No that is not true. No one is ordering anyone to believe in anything. The heart of the matter is that someone claims that something is based on the Qur'an while it is not.

If Sufi wants to believe he is Zeus' halfbrother he can, his problem. But if he says that that is based on the Qur'an than he better prove it. A Muslim doesn't take the Qur'an and start cherrypicking words whithout even knowing Arabic. Never!

i am suspicious if you are doing it delibaretely despite you know of it. but in this case, what kind of muslimism is it that you fail to obey the very significant basic moral principles that islam requires! remember the hadith, a very well known principle among muslims, that if someone dares to accuse his religious brother of qufr (blasphemy, atheism, etc), one of these two will certainly turn to blasphemy because of this. if the other one is not really a qafeer, then the word of the accuser will turn to himself and make him so.
why don't you muslims in this board take care? or are you not aware of them yet?

It is not easy no. And yet you should note that I wrote what amounted to be atheism. The fact that someone can claim that we are not separate from Allah says enough.

what is wrong with being mohammedan? do you not follow mohammed? you seem you judge anything out of your knowledge as faulty!

Because Allah said:


022.078
YUSUFALI: And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

PICKTHAL: And strive for Allah with the endeavour which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor-due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!

SHAKIR: And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

Also do to searches in the Qur'an. Search for Muslimiin/Muslimoon and search for mohameddan.

don't you see that at all? we all have different qualities and different levels of penetration into meanings from each other. why shouldn't some muslims have deeper understandings than others?

But off course they may, If the don't contradict the Qur'an (and the Sunnah).
Btw, what is your opinion of the Sunnah?

no, this is not a sect, but this is a fact. it is a reality no matter if we like it or not! we all have different levels of understandings from each other.
it is also very interesting that you insist on sufis having a sect despite his disallowance. why are you so desirous to prevail upon another person to define himself as you define?

As I said before everyone uses the word Sufi for a different meaning. And if we use it in a respectfull way, then the term for ahmed baki and co is az.Zanadiqah.

as far as i understand, sufi believes in the undivided wholeness of us all. do you understand that? if yes, how come then you talk about someone's being divisive while he does not allow divisions? but as you accuse someone of something and try to put him beyond a line you draw, then it is you who is creating the division.

If some says Black and the other white than there is a line whether you speak of it or not.

a muslim should not seek for reasons to support his ego's desire to create divisions, but try harder to find commonalities to strenghten our unity for the sake of the religion of unity.

It is not a matter of ego. It is a matter of lying about Allah.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

One more question: Doomdayx, do you understand Arabic?

:m:

 

[Doomdayx]

One more question: Doomdayx, do you understand Arabic?

:m:

so what are you gonna invite me to an arabic board?

 

[Doomdayx]

No that is not true. No one is ordering anyone to believe in anything. The heart of the matter is that someone claims that something is based on the Qur'an while it is not.

If Sufi wants to believe he is Zeus' halfbrother he can, his problem. But if he says that that is based on the Qur'an than he better prove it. A Muslim doesn't take the Qur'an and start cherrypicking words whithout even knowing Arabic. Never!



It is not easy no. And yet you should note that I wrote what amounted to be atheism. The fact that someone can claim that we are not separate from Allah says enough.



Because Allah said:


022.078
YUSUFALI: And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive, (with sincerity and under discipline). He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to Allah! He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help!

PICKTHAL: And strive for Allah with the endeavour which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor-due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!

SHAKIR: And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

Also do to searches in the Qur'an. Search for Muslimiin/Muslimoon and search for mohameddan.



But off course they may, If the don't contradict the Qur'an (and the Sunnah).
Btw, what is your opinion of the Sunnah?



As I said before everyone uses the word Sufi for a different meaning. And if we use it in a respectfull way, then the term for ahmed baki and co is az.Zanadiqah.



If some says Black and the other white than there is a line whether you speak of it or not.



It is not a matter of ego. It is a matter of lying about Allah.

boy, will you ever give up throwing allegations on muslims you do not even know? are you aware what kind of an image you are creating?
instead of showing resistance to any advice given to you, you better accept one thing for yourself..
none of the muslims in this world needs to believe in your imagination of separate god even though you tend to label it as allah.
it is obvious that because of your social conditioning to that separate god illusion, you have been **missing** very basic *moral* and *spritual* values and messages given praticularly in tens of qur'an lessons. i am not going to list them all in my post now. you may at least bother to pay attention to the passages posted to your interst from hazrat ali and imam ghazali before, that as long as man's vision is clouded by ignorance and sensuality he will consider himself a separate entity, different from god.
so, stop your ego from resisting and debating and throwing accusations! just spare some of your time in a fine day to make a serious investigation for your good instead. neither taking advice nor making investigations is worse than taking a risk of wasting whole life with a vision clouded by ignorance.
neither our arabic knowledge nor cutting and pasting lessons from the qur'an all the time can save us without understanding them properly the unifying message given in them and without applying them to our practices adequately. do not trust that some of your actions do not account and they can escape from the sight of a separate god. as i believe it, nothing can escape from the wholeness of allah.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

so what are you gonna invite me to an arabic board?

:bugeye: ... no...

And, was that a no?

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

boy, will you ever give up throwing allegations on muslims you do not even know? are you aware what kind of an image you are creating?

Sorry man. I don't live for the image. I rather be mean what I say.

instead of showing resistance to any advice given to you, you better accept one thing for yourself..
none of the muslims in this world needs to believe in your imagination of separate god even though you tend to label it as allah.

No but they have to accept the Qur'an as the source. I know you don't like hearing that, but hey it is the truth.

it is obvious that because of your social conditioning to that separate god illusion, you have been **missing** very basic *moral* and *spritual* values and messages given praticularly in tens of qur'an lessons.

Well, aren't we judgmental.

i am not going to list them all in my post now. you may at least bother to pay attention to the passages posted to your interst from hazrat ali and imam ghazali before, that as long as man's vision is clouded by ignorance and sensuality he will consider himself a separate entity, different from god.

Yeah but the question is who of the both of us is ignorant and absorbed by sensuality. And the Judge is the Qur'an.

Since you seem to have missed the question earlier: What do you think of the Sunnah?

so, stop your ego from resisting and debating and throwing accusations!

So you want me not to argue and simply accept your idle tales??

just spare some of your time in a fine day to make a serious investigation for your good instead. neither taking advice nor making investigations is worse than taking a risk of wasting whole life with a vision clouded by ignorance.

I am doing but investigate and research. Also, back at you. Think about it.

neither our arabic knowledge nor cutting and pasting lessons from the qur'an all the time can save us without understanding them properly the unifying message given in them and without applying them to our practices adequately.

That is why I ask (again): Do you understand Arabic??

do not trust that some of your actions do not account and they can escape from the sight of a separate god.

as i believe it, nothing can escape from the wholeness of allah.

The wholeness... how revealing...

:m:

 

[Doomdayx]

I am goıng to use your tactic now.,

Sorry man. I don't live for the image. I rather be mean what I say.

by this reply you mean you are not aware of it and so you are staying unaware as you do not need to be.

No but they have to accept the Qur'an as the source. I know you don't like hearing that, but hey it is the truth.

i am telling that none of the muslims in this world needs to believe in your imagination of separate god even though you tend to label it as allah. you say they have to accept the qur'an. what else? dont you understand that they they might think the same for you. your image of god does not fit in their understaning of allah, so you are far from understanding the quran in their eyes.
what is your imagination of me that don't like hearing and what is the truth?

Well, aren't we judgmental.

why? don't you think so? i said, it is obvious that because of your social conditioning to that separate god illusion, you have been **missing** very basic *moral* and *spritual* values and messages given praticularly in tens of qur'an lessons. read our previous posts about backbiting and about how the quran tells that the presence of allah is everywhere, completely contrary to your imagination.

Yeah but the question is who of the both of us is ignorant and absorbed by sensuality. And the Judge is the Qur'an.

who do you think? don't you insist on god's being a separate entity? listen this time hazrat ali says as long as man's vision is clouded by ignorance and sensuality he will consider himself a separate entity, different from god.
or do you mean you understand the quran better than hazrat ali, the gate of knowledge?

Since you seem to have missed the question earlier: What do you think of the Sunnah?

what do you expect a muslim reply to that? are you seeking another ground to fight and stisfy your ego?

So you want me not to argue and simply accept your idle tales??

which tale?
i said stop your ego from resisting and debating and throwing accusations!
ok if you do not accept. let your ego keep resiting debating and throwing accusations on muslims you do not even know.

I am doing but investigate and research. Also, back at you. Think about it.

wher are they, your investigations and conclusions? back at me? then spare
more and more time to make a serious investigation for your good instead. neither taking advice nor making investigations is worse than taking a risk of wasting whole life with a vision clouded by ignorance.

That is why I ask (again): Do you understand Arabic??

what do you hint at that? let us see what is so special about understanding arabic?

The wholeness... how revealing...

what revealing? do you need to sculpt an image in your mind for any name you hear like god?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Apart from all the non-sense I just wasted my time reading (your previous post), I take it you recognise the Sunnah, am I right?

I also conclude that thou speaketh no Arabic.

And where did Ali ibn.abi.Taled - may Allah be pleased with him- say that?

:m:

 

[Doomdayx]

The heart of the matter is that someone claims that something is based on the Qur'an while it is not.

taking the lessons of the quran that you missed and the words of hazrat ali into account, who is that?

It is not a matter of ego. It is a matter of lying about Allah.

yes i think so for those claiming that allah is a separate god.

I take it you recognise the Sunnah, am I right?

boy, with this superficial approach, you are confusing recognizin sunnah or islam with holding a favorite football team. hearing from me if i am for the sunnah is nothing.
couldn't you still understand that this andislam is not a matter of labels. saying i recognize the Sunnah will not make you one who recognized it really. what you are understaning of it and what you are practising of it, how you base your points of view on it is what matters. the rest is all mere labellings that you will leave in this world when you pass away and labels will not be hepful if you have not gained the faculties and powers from applying them to your understanding. take for instance backbiting and look at your practices, especially your relations with others, if they are suitable within the perspective of rasulallah, if rasulallah woul do something like that. if he wouldn't and if your practices are not suitable to sunnah, then your saying that i recognize sunnah is a simple game you play, whch you will suffer the result in the end.

And where did Ali ibn.abi.Taled - may Allah be pleased with him- say that?

it is your problem to investigate it now after so many repetations, it has been wriitten many times before and you were too busy throwing accusations to other muslims to notice it

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Apart from all the non-sense I just wasted my time reading (your previous post), I take it you recognise the Sunnah, am I right?

I also conclude that thou speaketh no Arabic.

And where did Ali ibn.abi.Taled - may Allah be pleased with him- say that?

no :m: for you this time, for making me repeat myself.

 

[Doomdayx]

I take it you recognise the Sunnah, am I right?

very clever and so what?

I also conclude that thou speaketh no Arabic.

let us say no, then so what?

And where did Ali ibn.abi.Taled - may Allah be pleased with him- say that?

look up nahjul balagha! (you were too busy with your sword to notice it)

upon hearing the words of mohammed (pbuh) that "allah was allah, and there was not with him a thing" hazrat ali also said, "al an qama qan" (it is that moment we are in).

and so what?

what about your separate god?

 

[Doomdayx]

atheists are far more closer to grasp what "allah" refers to, than those having a preconception of god.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

very clever and so what?

It's usefull to know.

let us say no, then so what?

To confirm my suspicion.

look up nahjul balagha! (you were too busy with your sword to notice it)

I had it on my to-buy list since summer. I was too busy with (many) other books since.

upon hearing the words of mohammed (pbuh) that "allah was allah, and there was not with him a thing" hazrat ali also said, "al an qama qan" (it is that moment we are in).

Here I can see that you do not grasp Arabic. "Al-an qama qan" means:
Al-an: now.
gama: as
qan: (He) was.

It means He is as He was. This illustrates that Allah himself never changed, Since He is beyond Time and Space

and so what?

So yuo are full of it

what about your separate god?

Illahu Muhammad -3layhi Salaatu wa ssalaam?
The God of Muhammad -peace be upon him?

Here the sunnah is useful:

Sahih Muslim

Book 004, Number 1094:

Mu'awiya b. al-Hakam said: While I was praying with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), a man in the company sneezed. I said: Allah have mercy on you! The people stared at me with disapproving looks, so I said: Woe be upon me, why is it that you stare at me? They began to strike their hands on their thighs, and when I saw them urging me to observe silence (I became angry) but I said nothing. When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said the prayer (and I declare that neither before him nor after him have I seen a leader who gave better instruction than he for whom I would give my father and mother as ransom). I swear that he did not scold, beat or revile me but said: Talking to persons is not fitting during the prayer, for it consists of glorifying Allah, declaring his Greatness. and recitation of the Qur'an or words to that effect. I said: Messenger of Allah. I was till recently a pagan, but Allah has brought Islam to us; among us there are men who have recourse to Kahins. He said, Do not have recourse to them. I said. There are men who take omens. That is something which they find in their breasts, but let it not turn their way (from freedom of action). I said: Among us there are men who draw lines. He said: There was a prophet who drew lines, so if they do it as they did, that is allowable. I had a maid-servant who tended goats by the side of Uhud and Jawwaniya. One day I happened to pass that way and found that a wolf had carried a goat from her flock. I am after all a man from the posterity of Adam. I felt sorry as they (human beings) feel sorry. So I slapped her. I came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and felt (this act of mine) as something grievous I said: Messenger of Allah, should I not grant her freedom? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Bring her to me. So I brought her to him. He said to her: Where is Allah? She said: He is in the heaven. He said: Who am I? She said: Thou art the Messenger of Allah. He said: Grant her freedom, she is a believing woman.

:m: