Is sufi an atheist?

Is he an atheist?

  • Total voters
    15
path said:
Wow we go to the same church :p honestly you just about summed up my feelings/beliefs there. Don't you think what you are describing is more agnostcism? Atheists by definition don't believe that there is anything more no external force at all.
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What I believe is loosely summed up here.
Have you read that?

1.) I think you can believe in an external force, without believing in God.

2.) The "force" I was talking about is not an external one at all. It has nothing to do with anything "supernatural" or any ethereal beings of any kind. It is nothing but the consequences of our own actions and the interaction of all things that exist. It is wholly physically consistent.

I do currently refer to myself as an agnostic, but I don't necessarily see that viewpoint as an agnostic one. I think one can choose to view that "force" as a God, or not. I think, in many ways, that the force fits quite well with many theist's descriptions/views of what "God" is.
 
one_raven said:
What I believe is loosely summed up here.
Have you read that?
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No I haven't read that but I will. :)

1.) I think you can believe in an external force, without believing in God.
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True but Sufi believes (in my understanding) that the quran is a divine book.

2.) The "force" I was talking about is not an external one at all. It has nothing to do with anything "supernatural" or any ethereal beings of any kind. It is nothing but the consequences of our own actions and the interaction of all things that exist. It is wholly physically consistent.
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I understand but you are refering to your interpretation here I was refering to my understanding of Sufi's "allah".

I do currently refer to myself as an agnostic, but I don't necessarily see that viewpoint as an agnostic one. I think one can choose to view that "force" as a God, or not. I think, in many ways, that the force fits quite well with many theist's descriptions/views of what "God" is.
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Which theists? certainly not christians, muslims, or jews.
 
Wait here are some questions for those who voted yes

1.)Do atheists believe in any divine books?

2.)Do Sufis believe in any divine book?
 
Sufism is a gnostic order. It tries to understand/know God beyond the normal definitions and notions. That makes it still more mystical. A sufi cannot be an atheist. But our Sufi sounds like an atheist to me for he vehemently denies God but does not explain why the 'oneness/Allah' talks and warns like God, in Quran.


Bruce,

Someone already asked, whom you are calling theists then ? Only Muslims OR Christians/Hindus/Pagans too ?
 
everneo said:
Sufism is a gnostic order. It tries to understand/know God beyond the normal definitions and notions. That makes it still more mystical. A sufi cannot be an atheist.
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I think that one_raven pinpointed it quite well under the term "pantheist"

everneo said:
But our Sufi sounds like an atheist to me for he vehemently denies God but does not explain why the 'oneness/Allah' talks and warns like God, in Quran.
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I was just gonna say that to path. I understand sufi's idea. But it is in his abuse of the Qur'an that it all falls apart.

everneo said:
Bruce,

Someone already asked, whom you are calling theists then ? Only Muslims OR Christians/Hindus/Pagans too ?
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Who asked? I must 've missed it. Theists are those that believe in one or more gods.

:m:
 
Btw, I would like to note that sufism is not monolithic. I know sufi's that would not accept sufi's ideas.

:m:
 
Bruce Wayne said:
I think that one_raven pinpointed it quite well under the term "pantheist"
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If sufis are just 'pantheists' they would have been executed long back by the orthodox for blasphemy. Sufi gnosticism goes beyond immanence of God. Their praise of transcendental god (who is also immanent), before and after creation, only allowed them to carry on this far. Sufi gnosticism believes in both trascendental and immanent God.

I was just gonna say that to path. I understand sufi's idea. But it is in his abuse of the Qur'an that it all falls apart.
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Our sufi could be more clear, but i feel, quran has not been abused by sufis but viewing their concept of 'immanence' of god in isolation (from transcendence) makes things difficult for you.

Who asked? I must 've missed it. Theists are those that believe in one or more gods.
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Well, very kind of you , on the infidels. ;)
 
your all discussing sufi, but only sufi knows what he is. and I certainly dont think he's an atheist, and I bet he does'nt too.
 
everneo said:
If sufis are just 'pantheists' they would have been executed long back by the orthodox for blasphemy. Sufi gnosticism goes beyond immanence of God. Their praise of transcendental god (who is also immanent), before and after creation, only allowed them to carry on this far. Sufi gnosticism believes in both trascendental and immanent God.
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I was referring to (our)sufi not sufism. In fact, I swear I know one (hardcore) sufi guy that would beat (our) sufi's ideas out of his head. :eek:

everneo said:
Our sufi could be more clear, but i feel, quran has not been abused by sufis but viewing their concept of 'immanence' of god in isolation (from transcendence) makes things difficult for you.
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Nothing of the kind. I happen to be able to read the Book. I understand his ideas (sufi's) and don't feel anything in particular towards them, but he claims they are from the Qur'an. That's fair. But then he has to show it. He has not, Instead he picks words and put illogical spins to them.

everneo said:
Well, very kind of you , on the infidels. ;)
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I don't have a monopoly on the English language. Infidel is a word that is used by orientalists and non-Muslims, not by Muslims. I do not use the word for hindus or whomever.

:m:
 
One Raven:

It seems Farenheit is trying to say this:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts

Although I agree that belief in any god would render you not atheist, the point is still a good one when taken in the correct context.
 
Well in my personal observations of Sufism it is next to imposible to call Sufi's Muslims at all. Both the terms Sufi and Sufism and Sufi beliefs have no basis from the traditional Islamic sources of the Qur'an and Sunnah, a fact even admitted by themselves. Rather, Sufism is in essence a conglomerate consisting of extracts from a multitude of other religions with which Sufi's interacted. Since the Qur'an and Hadith are readily available, and cannot be changed, the Sufis have resorted to another trick used by other Mystics: Ta'weel, or changing the apparent meaning of a verse or hadith to a secret inner one which only a certified Sheikh could explain.The fact that they even have to call themselves "Sufi's" is unislamic because Muslims arent suppose to create divisions amongst themselves let alone practice anything called "Sufism"

[21.92] Surely this Islam is your religion, one religion (only), and I am your Lord, therefore serve Me.



So if they follow the Koran?.......
 
Leave Sufi alone...he is who he is and you can take it or leave it. If you have learned from Sufi's post than he is your teacher. If he has learned from yours than he is your student. If you are irked by his posts on a debate forum than the conflict lies within you as opposed to him. But at every angle you look at it from for you to guess or determine Sufi's religious persuasion (or lack of) is silly. If you want to know ask him. If he doesn't want to answer get over it.
 
robtex said:
Leave Sufi alone...he is who he is and you can take it or leave it. If you have learned from Sufi's post than he is your teacher. If he has learned from yours than he is your student. If you are irked by his posts on a debate forum than the conflict lies within you as opposed to him. But at every angle you look at it from for you to guess or determine Sufi's religious persuasion (or lack of) is silly. If you want to know ask him. If he doesn't want to answer get over it.
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Leave me alone if I wanna challenge Sufi :D but seriously I dont challenge anyone's atheist or Christian view on these boards however when one claims to be a Muslim then I have every right to challege their views if what they are saying is unislamic. Even if Sufi was preaching Sufism without the Islamic aspect to it I wouldnt have a problem with it.....but when he starts preaching about the Prophet (pbuh) and what his message was the it becomes my duty as a muslim to correct his mistakes.....Sorry if you dont believe in anything enough to fight to defend it
 
Bruce Wayne said:
I was referring to (our)sufi not sufism.
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You have commented/corrected on my post on sufism, not (our) sufi.

I don't have a monopoly on the English language. Infidel is a word that is used by orientalists and non-Muslims, not by Muslims. I do not use the word for hindus or whomever.
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I find the term 'kafir' rather obscene so i used the term 'infidel'.
 
Yes, he is an atheist, but it's a special kind of atheism that is also the highest form of understanding about God, that no belief can contain God, that you are an aspect of God, and all beliefs amount to turning away from that awareness. If everything and every action was already holy, what's the use of praying? ...what's the point of a separate ideology?
 
M-16 said:
Sufi is going to hell.
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Don't we just love to pass judgement. Are you Allah now all of the sudden?
Or are you just one of those believers that likes to cast the first stone. Be first in line so you don't miss any of the action :rolleyes:
 
Don't we love to miss the possibility of sarcasm.

But then, lower intelligences are incapable of good humor.
 
Naomi said:
Don't we love to miss the possibility of sarcasm.
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If M16 was kidding he can say so but somehow I doubt he was since if I am not mistaken his doctrine tells him that's what will happen


But then, lower intelligences are incapable of good humor.
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Incapable of good humor or incapable of understanding good humor? What exactly are you trying to say here Naomi? Try harder
 
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