Is sufi an atheist?

[everneo]

Stop playing with words.....Prophets are different than you or me......Sufi saints claim to have this same knowledge(sometimes more so) that the Prophets had

Apart from your aparent irritation on hearing what you don't want to hear ;

Let me ask you, what is so evil about it that you or me or the sufi saints sharing the same knowledge of Prophet(s)? If a religion so perfect does not raise its adherents to the level of its role models - the prophets, then what is the meaning for its perfection ?

And, you and me and more know today about theory of relativity which the prophet(s) were most probably blissfully unaware of OR too early to be exposed. Does not that make you and me better than prophet(s) in respect of material knowledge ? Do you believe porphet(s) have knowledge unattainable by others ? Do you believe prophet(s) were not willing to share their knowledge to the genuines ?

I dont know how much you know of Sufi history( i used to study it) but During the sixth century AH, many Sufis who have started their own Turuqh claimed that they were direct descendants of the Messenger of Allah. They did so in order to gain the support and loyalty of the common-folk, so they will be receptive to the Sufi methodology. Thus, many people embraced the Sufi Turuqh, such as the Turuqh of some infamous Sufi teachers as Ar-Rifa'i in Iraq, and Al-Badawi and Ash-Shathili in Egypt. Many other Sufi Turuqh then appeared and spread throughout the Muslim World. - With regards to Allah: The Sufis have different types of belief in Allah.

I think the last sentence should help differentiate who is genuine who is fake among the sufis.

Al-'Hallaj and those who followed his misguided way, believed in incarnation and that Allah's Soul appears in all types of shapes, even animals, such as cows, pigs, donkeys, etc. Allah is praised from the Kufr and Shirk that the disbelievers attribute unto Him.

Too bad he did not bother that his murderers also would be 'Allah'. He lost his 'self' and whatever remained was 'Allah' including his killers and what was killed.

Abu Yazid Al-Bustami, a renowned Sufi teacher said, "Allah once ascended me (meaning to Him!) and raised me between His Hands, and then said to me, 'O Abu Yazid! My creation like to gaze at you.' So I said, 'Bestow Your Oneness unto me, and make me wear Your Selfishness, so that when Your creation see me, they will say, 'We have seen You (meaning Allah),' so You will be him (meaning 1), while I will not be here! "' [Al Luma', p. 461]. (look him up if you dont believe me) :m:

I don't know what happened to this 'looser' (i mean who lost his 'self'/identity ). Did he share the fate of poor Al-hallaj ?

 

[everneo]

Nothing can prevent Allah from doing what he wills. Yet that is not the issue here. As Allah communicated through Mohammed -peace be upon him-, He said:

AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD)

005.003

YUSUFALI: Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah; that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

PICKTHAL: Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swineflesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death-stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination. This day are those who disbelieve in despair of (ever harming) your religion; so fear them not, fear Me! This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

SHAKIR: Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

I remember discussing the ayat 5.3 in another thread.
- http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=694210#post694210

This means that as this verse was revealed, Islam was complete. So one can claim a better understanding of Islam (, which he has to back up) but cannot say Allah told him how to do it better.

If "Islam" is the arabic word for "Submission", then i presume submission is the first and fundamental criteria for muslims to proceed in the way of Allah;
The way is perfect and if the traveller has dedication then Allah would guide him as He wishes.

Here it seres to know more of Islam. The word prophet is not accurate in English. It covers two Arabic words: "Rassul" and "Nabi". The first means messenger, the second would prophet. This means we have tos eparate between prophet and messenger. A prophet would be someone that has received revelation. A messenger is someone has received AND that has to spread it. A messenger is a prophet and a prophet is not necessarily a messenger.

AL-AHZAB (THE CLANS, THE COALITION,THE COMBINED FORCES)
033.040
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.

PICKTHAL: Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.

SHAKIR: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.


There is then no one prophet, no one that receives revelation after the prophet. Also it is not needed since religion has been perfected.

Good points. I understand that the prophet is the best among muslims. I view religion is a way not an end itself. Unless you know the Prophet completely it is difficult to say whether someone is equalling him or closely trailing him on this way. Sometimes the later situation might be mistaken for the first one. The Sufi Saints might be mistaken as challenging the Prophet.

 

[M-16]

Don't we just love to pass judgement. Are you Allah now all of the sudden?
Or are you just one of those believers that likes to cast the first stone. Be first in line so you don't miss any of the action

Hey, don't talk to me.

 

[path]

Hey, don't talk to me.

Deal with it boy you are on a public forum get over yourself and don't whine when somebody calls you on crap you post.

 

[Sufi]

Go beyond the namings, move past the appearances and forget about labellings! You cannot know a painter through seeing a few of his paints. Instead, spend your time discussing about and trying to understand what Sufi is saying!

 

[mis-t-highs]

I need another really long post, pointing out nothing new.
so sufi what are you saying.

 

[Sufi]

I need another really long post, pointing out nothing new.
so sufi what are you saying.

Pls, consider reading my threads and previous posts; also some of the posts above, they are really enlightening written friendly to explain the truth against the allegations thrown by muslims with mullah understanding of Islam who rejects the deep spiritual understanding of Islam which is known as Sufi understanding.

 

[Sufi]

Atheist is probably confused with "khaneef" in Islam. Before his Nubuwwah Mohammed (pbuh) with about a dozen friends were khaneefs in their time, because they did not accept a God/Gods their tribe accepted and worshipped... They were accused of not believing and worshipping God/Gods that common people believed and worshipped WITHOUT QUESTIONING. However, going one step ahead, Mohammed (pbuh) and his friends sought to understand the Universal Creator beyond the accepted notion of deity by the masses in their time.

We must make at least serious investigations about all these matters to know the truth. Judging matters on peoples' hearsay or reading a book or two will not be sufficient.

 

[surenderer]

to reject the deep spiritual understanding of Islam which is known as Sufi understanding

Sufi please explain as a Muslim what this means......If indeed your "sect" doesnt divide itself from other Muslims then what is "Sufi understanding"? and how does it differ from any other muslim's understanding? Feel free to use the Koran to back up what you mean

 

[Sufi]

Sufi please explain as a Muslim what this means......If indeed your "sect" doesnt divide itself from other Muslims then what is "Sufi understanding"? and how does it differ from any other muslim's understanding? Feel free to use the Koran to back up what you mean

I do not know my "sect"(?) at all and also how it "divides"(?) "itself"(?) from other muslims! It was all your words since the beginning, not mine... You are supposed to explain the anwers to us, for it was your way to divide and throw allegations!

 

[Sufi]

Sufism can be considered as a sect much as Mullahism can be so.

Sufism is a "quality" in the same way as Spiritualism or Mysticism is, it is a way of understanding! I don't think this is so difficult to understand, only a few words, but it maybe difficult to listen because of prejudice.

By the way, pls tell us if "Mullahism" your sect?

 

[surenderer]

Sufi you said:

who rejects the deep spiritual understanding of Islam which is known as Sufi understanding.

I am calling you out to explain what this means.....now you say

I do not know my "sect"(?) at all and also how it "divides"(?) "itself"(?) from other muslims

I think you do so much cutting and pasting you forget what you posted

It was all your words since the beginning, not mine...

Obviously not true

You are supposed to explain the anwers to us, for it was your way to divide and throw allegations

Not dividing only asking you th explain what is Sufi understanding and how it differs from any other muslims understanding.....I mean we read the same Koran right? we live by the example set by the same Nabi's and Rasul's right?

 

[surenderer]

]

Sufism can be considered as a sect much as Mullahism can be so.

Fair enough

Sufism is a "quality" in the same way as Spiritualism or Mysticism is, it is a way of understanding!

Was the Koran not Spirtual enough for you allready? Remeber the Koran says:


"The Monasticism which they invented for themselves; We did not prescribe it for them." Qur'an 57:27

I don't think this is so difficult to understand, only a few words, but it maybe difficult to listen because of prejudice.

No it is difficult to listen to because the Koran says:

6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with
you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform
them of everything they had done.

By the way, pls tell us if "Mullahism" your sect?

Nope nor have I given you a reason to think that it ever was

 

[Doomdayx]

surenderer,
you obviously cannot see the difference between sufi muslims' understanding and mullah's understanding! there is no such thing as a mullahism sect! neither sufism nor mullahism is a sect! they are simply ways of interpreting the qur'an.
said is sufi muslims to those who are for unity, who give unifying messages, who strive to embrace all muslims and all humans, based of their interpretation of the qur'an.
mullahs are, however said to those who are more concerned with separations and divisions and thus who reject the the deep spiritual meanings the mystics deduce from the lessons of the qur'an.
it is obvious that in the eyes of sufi your understanding falls in the category of mullah understanding of islam.

 

[surenderer]

surenderer,
you obviously cannot see the difference between sufi muslims' understanding and mullah's understanding! there is no such thing as a mullahism sect! neither sufism nor mullahism is a sect! they are simply ways of interpreting the qur'an.
said is sufi muslims to those who are for unity, who give unifying messages, who strive to embrace all muslims and all humans, based of their interpretation of the qur'an.
mullahs are, however said to those who are more concerned with separations and divisions and thus who reject the the deep spiritual meanings the mystics deduce from the lessons of the qur'an.
it is obvious that in the eyes of sufi your understanding falls in the category of mullah understanding of islam.

Sorry Doom but when one interpets the Koran as meaning "their is no God" then they arent muslims. I've even heard Sufi call himself a Mohammaden on this board before. Listen to what you say....

there is no such thing as a mullahism sect! neither sufism nor mullahism is a sect!

then you say:

it is obvious that in the eyes of sufi your understanding falls in the category of mullah understanding of islam

So what you are saying is that Sufi's have some deep mystical understanding of the Koran that other muslims dont have that is a sect my friend and making divisions....I have posted where the Koran (remember that? the book that muslims are suppose to follow?) says this is wrong yet you still chose to ignore it? Thats not Islamic behavior....Feel free to use the Koran to show me where I am wrong as I have done you

 

[path]

Sorry Doom but when one interpets the Koran as meaning "their is no God" then they arent muslims.

Sorry to butt in

I don't get from sufi that he is saying there is no god my understanding is that he is saying god is everything and everywhere not a supernatural being that is separate from creation.
I am not trying to claim anyone is correct here so don't flame me .

just my 2 cents, carry on.

 

[Doomdayx]

Sorry Doom but when one interpets the Koran as meaning "their is no God" then they arent muslims.

boy! don't you read sufi himself, he says he believes in what he understands of allah as referred to in the qur'an. you keep suggesting that one needs to believe in your conception of "deity" to be a muslim. no, one does not!
i am suspicious if you are doing it delibaretely despite you know of it. but in this case, what kind of muslimism is it that you fail to obey the very significant basic moral principles that islam requires! remember the hadith, a very well known principle among muslims, that if someone dares to accuse his religious brother of qufr (blasphemy, atheism, etc), one of these two will certainly turn to blasphemy because of this. if the other one is not really a qafeer, then the word of the accuser will turn to himself and make him so.
why don't you muslims in this board take care? or are you not aware of them yet?

I've even heard Sufi call himself a Mohammaden on this board before.

what is wrong with being mohammedan? do you not follow mohammed? you seem you judge anything out of your knowledge as faulty!

So what you are saying is that Sufi's have some deep mystical understanding of the Koran that other muslims dont have

don't you see that at all? we all have different qualities and different levels of penetration into meanings from each other. why shouldn't some muslims have deeper understandings than others?

that is a sect my friend

no, this is not a sect, but this is a fact. it is a reality no matter if we like it or not! we all have different levels of understandings from each other.
it is also very interesting that you insist on sufis having a sect despite his disallowance. why are you so desirous to prevail upon another person to define himself as you define?

that is a sect my friend and making divisions...

as far as i understand, sufi believes in the undivided wholeness of us all. do you understand that? if yes, how come then you talk about someone's being divisive while he does not allow divisions? but as you accuse someone of something and try to put him beyond a line you draw, then it is you who is creating the division.
a muslim should not seek for reasons to support his ego's desire to create divisions, but try harder to find commonalities to strenghten our unity for the sake of the religion of unity.

 

[surenderer]

boy! don't you read sufi himself, he says he believes in what he understands of allah as referred to in the qur'an.you keep suggesting that one needs to believe in your conception o f "deity" to be a muslim. no, one does not!
i am suspicious if you are doing it delibaretely despite you know of it. but in this case, what kind of muslimism is it that you fail to obey the very significant basic moral principles that islam requires! remember the hadith, a very well known principle among muslims, that if someone dares to accuse his religious brother of qufr (blasphemy, atheism, etc), one of these two will certainly turn to blasphemy because of this. if the other one is not really a qafeer, then the word of the accuser will turn to himself and make him so.
why don't you muslims in this board take care? or are you not aware of them yet?








what is wrong with being mohammedan? do you not follow mohammed? you seem you judge anything out of your knowledge as faulty!



don't you see that at all? we all have different qualities and different levels of penetration into meanings from each other. why shouldn't some muslims have deeper understandings than others?



no, this is not a sect, but this is a fact. it is a reality no matter if we like it or not! we all have different levels of understandings from each other.
it is also very interesting that you insist on sufis having a sect despite his disallowance. why are you so desirous to prevail upon another person to define himself as you define?



as far as i understand, sufi believes in the undivided wholeness of us all. do you understand that? if yes, how come then you talk about someone's being divisive while he does not allow divisions? but as you accuse someone of something and try to put him beyond a line you draw, then it is you who is creating the division.
a muslim should not seek for reasons to support his ego's desire to create divisions, but try harder to find commonalities to strenghten our unity for the sake of the religion of unity.

you keep suggesting that one needs to believe in your conception o f "deity" to be a muslim. no, one does not!

If you dont have to believe in Deity then who are the enemies of Allah? friends? Sufi seems to say that Allah is in us and we are him.....not true Allah is above and beyond his creations

remember the hadith, a very well known principle among muslims, that if someone dares to accuse his religious brother of qufr (blasphemy, atheism, etc), one of these two will certainly turn to blasphemy because of this. if the other one is not really a qafeer, then the word of the accuser will turn to himself and make him so.

I know this and have even sent Sufi a PM to this fact to let him know my feelings yet it is my responsibility to "right any wrongs" I see with my religion also

what is wrong with being mohammedan? do you not follow mohammed? you seem you judge anything out of your knowledge as faulty

How little YOU seem to know of Muslims.....that trem is one of the worst you can call a muslim.....We follow Allah(saws)(God) we obey Allah(saws) we love and cherish ALL our Prophets but we dont distinguish between them. Our religion doesnt follow any man but it follows Allah. Allah didnt say our religion was Mohammeden he said it was Islam and we call ourselves muslims.....to do anything less is Shrik

but as you accuse someone of something and try to put him beyond a line you draw, then it is you who is creating the division.

Sorry but I dont claim(as Sufi's do) to have knowledge of the unseen nor to have knowledge that the Prophets(pbuh) didnt have themselves that my friend is the most serious of charges

 

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: God simply does not exist.

 

[Doomdayx]

look surenderer, i say that you keep suggesting that one needs to believe in your conception o f "deity" to be a muslim.
you say: If you dont have to believe in Deity then who are the enemies of Allah?

are you still saying that one has to believe in your conception of deity to believe a muslim?
but cannot you see it that each and everyone has a different version of god in his or her minds despite they think that they believe in the same god? in one's mind is a forgiving god, in the others' a wrathful one. it goes on and on.

Sufi seems to say that Allah is in us and we are him.....not true Allah is above and beyond his creations

why don't you read the books sufi suggested before jumping to a conclusion about whah he may have meant. in one of the books i have read in the ahmedbaki.com, it is clearly stated that it is simple mindedness to think that allah is in us or we are him. allah is beyond comprehension. for sure sufi is not saying that by saying allah is not afar off us but within the essence of entire being unlimitedly.

I know this and have even sent Sufi a PM to this fact to let him know my feelings yet it is my responsibility to "right any wrongs" I see with my religion also

very unislamic! it is noone's responsibility to right the wrongs of others in matters of faith, while even the prophet was not given this authority, when he was said you will communicate only.
now i hope you are able to tell the difference between the drive to communicate only and the drive to right the wrongs of others. such drives of ego may turn you to a militarist muslim and lead to violance in the end. we are not communicating our ideas in order to put anyone on the right, we are communicating them in order to share only of what we understand. they are worlds apart.

"It is not your duty to set them on the right path, but Allah sets on the right path whom He pleases..." (Bakarah: 272)

How little YOU seem to know of Muslims.....

boy, let us talk about our opinions without jumpimg into judgments or trying to blame or accuse each other in person, shall we?
i hope you can discuss matters without attacking the other in person with your assumptions.
see i am trying to discuss about your opinions and saying this or that one is very unislamic. i am not accusing you in person to be unislamic, thinking that you may change your opinion and make it islamic before death. it is not necesssality you but the thought.

that trem is one of the worst you can call a muslim.....We follow Allah(saws)(God) we obey Allah(saws) we love and cherish ALL our Prophets but we dont distinguish between them. Our religion doesnt follow any man but it follows Allah. Allah didnt say our religion was Mohammeden he said it was Islam and we call ourselves muslims.....to do anything less is Shrik

also very unislamic, which may lead one's ego in the end to deny many hadithes of prophet mohammed just becasue one's logic will fail to allow them.

"And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Messenger from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people." (Baqarah: 143)

Sorry but I dont claim(as Sufi's do) to have knowledge of the unseen nor to have knowledge that the Prophets(pbuh) didnt have themselves that my friend is the most serious of charges

did you ever read in sufis posts that he have knowledge that the prophets didn't have themselves?
otherwise this is also very unislamic behavior done toward your brother of religion, trying to throw accusations of deeds that the other did not do, as i am trying to tell since the beginning.
as a conclusion, our egos should be tamed, if we want to be really good muslims, we must first question our behaviors as to if they fit the basic principals of the religion of peace and unity before trying to correct what we think are the wrongs of others. as we all know, action speaks louder than mere words. being a chatterbox of the teachings of the qur'an does not make one a muslim, but applying them to our personal actions toward others.