Is sufi an atheist?

Is he an atheist?

  • Total voters
    15
B

Bruce Wayne

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Registered Senior Member
Well think about it.

He has made clear he does not believe in a God. He is admantly against the notion of a God.

sufi said:
...and god does not exist.

So it is time to try to understand what is referred to as Allah considering the fact that "there is no god, (la ilaha ill-Allah), and there is only Allah."
Click to expand...

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=691508#post691508

Instead he believes in a "system" that expresses itself in the natural laws.

sufi said:
What you call "physical laws" is what we can perceive of the laws of the system, through our five senses.
Click to expand...

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=693829#post693829

What do you think?

:m:
 
I think Sufi should decide for himself, and if we want to know what he believes we should simply have a conversation with him.
What is the point of this thread?
 
I am not saying you decide for him. What I am saying is that he is de facto an atheist (see first point).

The thread is to illustrate a that he might well be an atheist, although he does not call himself that.

All I am asking is for, is for you to judge whether I am right or wrong in the conclusion that he is an atheist.

:m:
 
I think that what he is expressing as a belief sounds a lot like Pantheism, which is not necessarily Atheism. but can be depending on how the believer decides to interpret it.
Sufi, how do you interpret it?
 
one_raven said:
I think that what he is expressing as a belief sounds a lot like Pantheism, which is not necessarily Atheism. but can be depending on how the believer decides to interpret it.
Sufi, how do you interpret it?
Click to expand...

I think you have a point there. Concerning pantheism.

Sufi, raven is be right, which one is it?

Theism, pantheism, or atheism?

raven, am I leaving anything out?

:m:
 
your an atheist bruce as you dont believe in the xain god or the hindu god, or the jewish god, need I go on. the differance between you and me is, I have one less god than you.
so your arguement, against sufi is invalid.
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
your an atheist bruce as you dont believe in the xain god or the hindu god, or the jewish god, need I go on. the differance between you and me is, I have one less god than you.
so your arguement, against sufi is invalid.
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No it is not, go think it over will you.

:m:
 
He is arguing against the accepted notion that allah is a "Deity", or as he says "sky god", in the way humans understand it. Human notions of the supernatural are of neccesity constrained by the limits of human understanding and the tendency we have of visualizing concepts that are beyond our realm of experience. Sufi says allah is everywhere AND everything this is a much harder concept for humanity to find a neat visual container for than a "god" up there unseen. So being the myopic and simplistic creatures that we are we (not me mind you ;) ) prefer the easier visual reference to the one we can't pin down even enough to form an image in our heads.
He believes in "allah" and he follows "allah" (his interpretation) so by definition he is not an atheist.
 
Not necessarily, path.
What I tend to believe can be viewed as a version of Pantheism.
It is the "force" (for lack of a better word) of a collective cause and effect that does have a power over us (though it is created and powered BY us as well).
This "force", although it carries with it the intention and goals of us all, does not have its own intention or cognizance, therefore it is not a God, in my opinion.
Though I can't quite call myself an Atheist per se, since I am still a bit unsure of my views overall, the system I believe in can be viewed as pantheistic and atheistic at the same time.
 
you believe in allah, your supreme being, so you are atheistic to all other gods are you not, as they dont exist to you.
so as I dont believe in allah either, (*) you and sufi do. therefore it unfair to criticise sufi, he's no more atheistic than you.

(*) god/gods, demons, or the devil do not exist to me.
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
you believe in allah, your supreme being, so you are atheistic to all other gods are you not, as they dont exist to you.
so as I dont believe in allah either, (*) you and sufi do. therefore it unfair to criticise sufi, he's no more atheistic than you.

(*) god/gods, demons, or the devil do not exist to me.
Click to expand...

No seriously, go think it over.

:m:
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
you believe in allah, your supreme being, so you are atheistic to all other gods are you not, as they dont exist to you.
so as I dont believe in allah either, (*) you and sufi do. therefore it unfair to criticise sufi, he's no more atheistic than you.
Click to expand...


Atheist is not believing in a God.
It has nothing at all to do with whose God(s) or which doctrine(s) you believe in.

Either you are a theist (belief in a God or Gods) atheist (disbelief in a God) or agnostic (do not have knowledge of whether or not a God or Gods exist).
There are many arguments over what constitutes atheist or agnostic I have read, but if you believe in ANY God you are NOT an atheist.
 
one_raven said:
Atheist is not believing in a God.
It has nothing at all to do with whose God(s) or which doctrine(s) you believe in.

Either you are a theist (belief in a God or Gods) atheist (disbelief in a God) or agnostic (do not have knowledge of whether or not a God or Gods exist).
There are many arguments over what constitutes atheist or agnostic I have read, but if you believe in ANY God you are NOT an atheist.
Click to expand...
no atheism is not believing in a god/gods any kind of fantasy beings or beings.
I have'nt said anybody other then me is an atheist, I said thay are atheistic to other gods.

Atheists do not believe in God/gods for same reasons that they (and theists) do not believe in leprechauns, unicorns or the Gods of other religions.

Atheists do not hate God or allah, they simply do not believe in the existence of God or allah (or anyone else, for that matter). Christians, for example, do not believe in the Hindu God Ganesh, so they are atheistic to hinduism.

Some religions think atheists somehow make a special effort not to believe in Jehovah/allah and Jesus/mohammed in particular. Nope. They are just some among thousands of gods we don't believe in, there's nothing special about them from an atheist's point of view. Atheism is not the opposite of Christianity - it's the absence of theism.

atheistic meaning, having simularitys with atheism, towards other religions.
 
one_raven said:
Not necessarily, path.
What I tend to believe can be viewed as a version of Pantheism.
It is the "force" (for lack of a better word) of a collective cause and effect that does have a power over us (though it is created and powered BY us as well).
This "force", although it carries with it the intention and goals of us all, does not have its own intention or cognizance, therefore it is not a God, in my opinion.
Though I can't quite call myself an Atheist per se, since I am still a bit unsure of my views overall, the system I believe in can be viewed as pantheistic and atheistic at the same time.
Click to expand...

Wow we go to the same church :p honestly you just about summed up my feelings/beliefs there. Don't you think what you are describing is more agnostcism? Atheists by definition don't believe that there is anything more no external force at all.
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
I said thay are atheistic to other gods.
Click to expand...

Sorry.
That is not consistent with the word "atheism".
You simply have the wrong word here.
You are taking the concept of atheism and bending the definition at your convenience to suit your needs.

Atheist means simply:
"One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

It has nothing at all to do with any specific God or Gods.
Atheistic means simply:
"1. Relating to or characteristic of atheism or atheists. 2. Inclined to atheism."
In other words, atheistic is just the adjective to describe an Atheist or a characteristic of atheism. For example, "That is an atheistic point of view". It doesn't mean kind of atheist, or partially atheist or any such thing.
If you believe in a God or Gods you are not an atheist. Simple. There are no degrees or caveats.
 
To understand SUFI, and Sufism, which i am sure he represents, you need to chackout the Upanishads----although i haven't yet, you could for example google the two terms 'sufism upanishads' and see what you come up with and compare
brielfy, the Upanishadian doctrine assumes therer is a 'One' and a 'Many'.....the 'One' is the real, and the true reality 'behind' the 'many'--and it is what we 'must' aspire to.
The 'One' Is deified--as the all-good pure principle--and the 'Many', individuals, Nature, change, pluralism, not-believing in Upanishads, etc., is judged as 'Illusion'/Maya/evil'........
This sounds the same with SUFI's explanation of 'Allah'. thaT we are 'servants to 'it'/'Allah' and that we are 'imprisoned' in our desires--ie.` our individual preferences

Most of these belief-systems which posit a 'pure-source/goal' indoctrinate the belief that we are victims, and imprisoned in the body, (Orphism), that matter is evil (Gnosticism), that we are imprisoned in the 'wheel of birth and death' (Buddhism)..etc. All though i have separated these bel;ief systems out, their ideas are all shared by each of them
 
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