I don't agree that fidelity is merely a social constraint. It's a moral one. Why, if you loved someone completely, would you want to have sex with other people? Your points about being honest about who you are in a relationship are valid. If you're closest to your partner then morally you should be exclusive. If you want multiple partners then why enter into a relationship? It's a little idealistic to say we shouldn't enter into a relationship without "understandings". There are many understandings we have in relationships, they aren't about being socially confined to norms, or what is imposed on us by society. They're about what two people do for each other as partners, and what you refrain from because you love them.
Is sexual jealousy inappropriate?
- Thread starter S.A.M.
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Morally? Is it moral to be dishonest with yourself? Why does sexual infidelity necessarily mean 'multiple relationships'? One could be in a committed relationship and then for one reason or another become enticed by another. These supposed closeted understandings are exactly why people are disappointed by their partners. Where do you get the idea that restraint relates to a deeper love for one person? It may not. There are circumstances where an outside relationship can solidify the original partnership. Life, sex and love are more complicated than the neat lines you have listed above...under the name of morality no less.
I'm talking about conventional relationships most, not all, people have. If you're being dishonest with yourself about your feelings in that relationship then maybe it would be best to ask why you feel the need to have sex with others. I don't think fidelity is being dishonest with yourself if you have sexual desires for others. I may have an urge to steal a sweet from the pick-and-mix but if I have a moral obligation to not steal then I restrain myself. We don't always have to follow our feelings, if we did this world would be in a hell of a lot worse place than it is. Although I'm just pointing out the other side to your argument, I'm inclined to agree that relationships are complicated. I'm not judging others for having sex with more than one partner, I'm just saying if you're sleeping with others behind your partner's back then that's lying. Which isn't fair on the other person. I get the idea about love for your partner making you refrain from having sex with more than them because if you love them you think about them, and their needs, not your own. Idealistically altruistic perhaps, I know, but that's how I define love.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
I am also referring to conventional relationships. Infidelity doesn't happen to freaks you know, its quite common in fact. Can you imagine that someone person can feel the desire to be with one person, promise fidelity, and then 15years (plus 2 kids later) feel differently yet still love their family and feel committed? Most people tell their partners what they want to hear because truth can be disatisfying to the ears. The question here is why are those 'committed' forced to lie? If you define love by how closely you keep your loins by your loved one...well lets just say that love is much more than that. Why not, by your own standards, question the love of someone who wants to shackle you down with unnecessary insecurities? Is it loving to use guilt as a means to hold a partner in check?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Here are some very conventional stats:
It's tough to get a handle on how many of us are having affairs, given the inherent secrecy.
22 percent of married men have strayed at least once during their married lives.
14 percent of married women have had affairs at least once during their married lives.
Younger people are more likely candidates; in fact, younger women are as likely as younger men to be unfaithful.
70 percent of married women and 54 percent of married men did not know of their spouses' extramarital activity.
22 percent of men and 14 percent of women admitted to having sexual relations outside their marriage sometime in their past.
90 percent of Americans believe adultery is morally wrong.
50 percent of Americans say President Clinton's adultery makes his moral standard "about the same as the average married man,'' according to a Time-CNN poll.
17 percent of divorces in the United States are caused by infidelity.
Source: Associated Press
Recent studies reveal that 45-55% of married women and 50-60% of married men engage in extramarital sex at some time or another during their relationship (Atwood & Schwartz, 2002 - Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy)
Only 46% of men believe that online affairs are adultery. DivorceMag
About 60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an affair at some point in some marriage "Monogamy Myth", Therapist Peggy Vaugn
About 24 percent of men and 14 percent of women have had sex outside their marriages, according to a Dec. 21, 1998 report in USA Today on a national study by the University of California, San Francisco.
Affairs affect one of every 2.7 couples, according to counselor Janis Abrahms Spring, author of After the Affair,as reported by the Washington Post on March 30, 1999. Ten percent of extramarital affairs last one day, 10 percent last more than one day but less than a month, 50 percent last more than a month but less than a year, but 40 percent last two or more years. Few extramarital affairs last more than four years.
A lesser known fact is that those who divorce rarely marry the person with whom they are having the affair. For example, Dr. Jan Halper’s study of successful men (executives, entrepreneurs, professionals) found that very few men who have affairs divorce their wife and marry their lovers. Only 3 percent of the 4,100 successful men surveyed eventually married their lovers.
-2 out of 3 women and 3 out of 4 men admit they have sexual thoughts about co-workers.
-86% of men and 81% of women admit they routinely flirt with the opposite sex.
-75% of men and 65% of women admit to having sex with people they work with.
The fact is that human beings are NOT monogamous by nature. That means they cheat.
Experts say that a gut instinct is the most powerful indicator of a cheating lover. Adultery statistics state that 85% of woman who feel their lover is cheating are correct. 50% of men who feel their lover is cheating are right. The first clue is seldom obvious. Typically, it's a "feeling" that something is different.
Cheating spouse statistics confirm that 50 and 70 percent of married men (between 38 and 53 million men) have cheated or will cheat on their wives. One study found that 2/3 of the wives (26 to 36 million women) whose husbands were cheating had no idea their husbands were having an affair - largely because they failed to recognize the telltale signs.
According to Annette Lawson, author of Adultery, published in 1989 by Basic Books. "The various researchers arrive at a general consensus…suggesting that above one-quarter to about one-half of married women have at least one lover after they are married in any given marriage. Married men probably still stray more often than married women—perhaps from 50 percent to 65 percent by the age of forty." According to Maggie Scarf, author of Intimate Partners, first published in 1987 by Random House, re-issued in 1996 by Ballentine.
"Most experts do consider the 'educated guess' that at the present time some 50 to 65 percent of husbands and 45 to 55 percent of wives become extramaritally involved by the age of 40 to be a relatively sound and reasonable one." According to Peggy Vaughan, author of The Monogamy Myth, first published in 1989 by Newmarket Press (third edition published 2003).
Conservative infidelity statistics estimate that “60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an extramarital affair. These figures are even more significant when we consider the total number of marriages involved, since it's unlikely that all the men and women having affairs happen to be married to each other. If even half of the women having affairs (or 20 percent) are married to men not included in the 60 percent having affairs, then at least one partner will have an affair in approximately 80 percent of all marriages. With this many marriages affected, it's unreasonable to think affairs are due only to the failures and shortcomings of individual husbands or wives."
Note that the above adultry statistics of the prevalence of affairs were made more than a decade ago; so based on changes in society during the intervening years, the current percentage of the population who have had affairs is probably somewhat HIGHER. For instance, the continuing increase of women in the workplace and the increase of women having affairs on the Internet means that the numbers for women having affairs is probably similar to those for men—about 60%.
It's tough to get a handle on how many of us are having affairs, given the inherent secrecy.
22 percent of married men have strayed at least once during their married lives.
14 percent of married women have had affairs at least once during their married lives.
Younger people are more likely candidates; in fact, younger women are as likely as younger men to be unfaithful.
70 percent of married women and 54 percent of married men did not know of their spouses' extramarital activity.
22 percent of men and 14 percent of women admitted to having sexual relations outside their marriage sometime in their past.
90 percent of Americans believe adultery is morally wrong.
50 percent of Americans say President Clinton's adultery makes his moral standard "about the same as the average married man,'' according to a Time-CNN poll.
17 percent of divorces in the United States are caused by infidelity.
Source: Associated Press
Recent studies reveal that 45-55% of married women and 50-60% of married men engage in extramarital sex at some time or another during their relationship (Atwood & Schwartz, 2002 - Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy)
Only 46% of men believe that online affairs are adultery. DivorceMag
About 60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an affair at some point in some marriage "Monogamy Myth", Therapist Peggy Vaugn
About 24 percent of men and 14 percent of women have had sex outside their marriages, according to a Dec. 21, 1998 report in USA Today on a national study by the University of California, San Francisco.
Affairs affect one of every 2.7 couples, according to counselor Janis Abrahms Spring, author of After the Affair,as reported by the Washington Post on March 30, 1999. Ten percent of extramarital affairs last one day, 10 percent last more than one day but less than a month, 50 percent last more than a month but less than a year, but 40 percent last two or more years. Few extramarital affairs last more than four years.
A lesser known fact is that those who divorce rarely marry the person with whom they are having the affair. For example, Dr. Jan Halper’s study of successful men (executives, entrepreneurs, professionals) found that very few men who have affairs divorce their wife and marry their lovers. Only 3 percent of the 4,100 successful men surveyed eventually married their lovers.
-2 out of 3 women and 3 out of 4 men admit they have sexual thoughts about co-workers.
-86% of men and 81% of women admit they routinely flirt with the opposite sex.
-75% of men and 65% of women admit to having sex with people they work with.
The fact is that human beings are NOT monogamous by nature. That means they cheat.
Experts say that a gut instinct is the most powerful indicator of a cheating lover. Adultery statistics state that 85% of woman who feel their lover is cheating are correct. 50% of men who feel their lover is cheating are right. The first clue is seldom obvious. Typically, it's a "feeling" that something is different.
Cheating spouse statistics confirm that 50 and 70 percent of married men (between 38 and 53 million men) have cheated or will cheat on their wives. One study found that 2/3 of the wives (26 to 36 million women) whose husbands were cheating had no idea their husbands were having an affair - largely because they failed to recognize the telltale signs.
According to Annette Lawson, author of Adultery, published in 1989 by Basic Books. "The various researchers arrive at a general consensus…suggesting that above one-quarter to about one-half of married women have at least one lover after they are married in any given marriage. Married men probably still stray more often than married women—perhaps from 50 percent to 65 percent by the age of forty." According to Maggie Scarf, author of Intimate Partners, first published in 1987 by Random House, re-issued in 1996 by Ballentine.
"Most experts do consider the 'educated guess' that at the present time some 50 to 65 percent of husbands and 45 to 55 percent of wives become extramaritally involved by the age of 40 to be a relatively sound and reasonable one." According to Peggy Vaughan, author of The Monogamy Myth, first published in 1989 by Newmarket Press (third edition published 2003).
Conservative infidelity statistics estimate that “60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an extramarital affair. These figures are even more significant when we consider the total number of marriages involved, since it's unlikely that all the men and women having affairs happen to be married to each other. If even half of the women having affairs (or 20 percent) are married to men not included in the 60 percent having affairs, then at least one partner will have an affair in approximately 80 percent of all marriages. With this many marriages affected, it's unreasonable to think affairs are due only to the failures and shortcomings of individual husbands or wives."
Note that the above adultry statistics of the prevalence of affairs were made more than a decade ago; so based on changes in society during the intervening years, the current percentage of the population who have had affairs is probably somewhat HIGHER. For instance, the continuing increase of women in the workplace and the increase of women having affairs on the Internet means that the numbers for women having affairs is probably similar to those for men—about 60%.
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So what is your point? That we should have sex with others whilst married because it's our nature, or that we should go with our delusions and have sex with other people because we shouldn't feel society pressures us into monogamy? I'm not saying people who have affairs are bad people, I'm saying it's an abuse of trust, regardless of the circumstances. Say if someone was married for 10 years and they've come to a place where they're mostly platonic now. One, or both, parties have sexual desires for another and they go and have sex with them. It's completely understandable. Does that mean they should be open with their partner and tell them what's going on, or should they just leave that relationship the way it is and have sex with another person to satisfy their own desires/needs? Or do you think that it's that partner's failing for believing in the understanding most people have of monogamy. I agree, what society expects and our behaviour are two completely different things, but how do we resolve that realistically? Personally, I'd rather a partner said he wanted to end the relationship and that would leave him free to sleep with whoever he chooses. I think. It's never happened though, so maybe I'd feel differently.
Something about jumping off the Empire State Building
I would suggest that sexual fidelity has a certain purpose among humans that is not necessarily put to rest by the fact that Americans are generally clueless about such things.
I had a chance once to sleep with a friend, and didn't. If I'd known then that theirs was an open marriage ....
Then again, I'm curious if there is any correlation between the open marriage and the fact that her husband is absolutely coming apart at the seams.
Of course, I also never followed through on a suggestion that I should sleep with the husband, either.
Missed opportunities, you know.
Frankly, I don't understand their reason for getting married in the first place. But neither do I claim to understand all the valid reasons.
Really, if I had married the mother of my child, I'd be cheating on her. Or else going crazy. Not only did she sleep around more than I understood during the time we were together, I decided a long time ago that a two-minute dead-weight fuck just isn't satisfying.
I don't think people should disregard sexual fidelity as a general rule; I think they should spend more effort choosing a partner if the long term is what they're after.
S.A.M. said:
I would suggest that sexual fidelity has a certain purpose among humans that is not necessarily put to rest by the fact that Americans are generally clueless about such things.
I had a chance once to sleep with a friend, and didn't. If I'd known then that theirs was an open marriage ....
Then again, I'm curious if there is any correlation between the open marriage and the fact that her husband is absolutely coming apart at the seams.
Of course, I also never followed through on a suggestion that I should sleep with the husband, either.
Missed opportunities, you know.
Frankly, I don't understand their reason for getting married in the first place. But neither do I claim to understand all the valid reasons.
Really, if I had married the mother of my child, I'd be cheating on her. Or else going crazy. Not only did she sleep around more than I understood during the time we were together, I decided a long time ago that a two-minute dead-weight fuck just isn't satisfying.
I don't think people should disregard sexual fidelity as a general rule; I think they should spend more effort choosing a partner if the long term is what they're after.
Creeptology
Registered Member
I think long term fidelity definitely has a place. I love my wife and would never cheat on her. Not because I am not attracted to any other person, nor because of guilt or some moral obligation. Simply because I see it as an abuse of my partners trust. I care about my partners feelings and they are my best friend and best lover. If you practise contentment you don't need to sleep around. If you respect your partner you have no reason to sleep around. I know my wife feels the same way and is honest and upfront. Sometimes it's tough to tell the truth but if you love the other person it's essential to be open and committed to each other.
Creeptology
Registered Member
No not for me at least. I am content with my wife being my sole partner. If I wasn't I wouldn't have married her. As for people who end up in a relationship were they are unhappy I think what emmz said is perfect, if someone feels that way then they should end the relationship and THEN have relations with other partners. Even if there is kids involved.
The poll seems to present monogamy and completely open relationships as the only two possibilities... but there are many forms of non-monogamy.
What about polyfidelity?
Or a Heinlein-style group marriage?
What about polyfidelity?
Or a Heinlein-style group marriage?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Why is it Emmz that you have to go to extremes on this subject? I explain that no matter what people 'say' people are cheating on their spouses or partners, its a suggestion that many people are in reality not monogamous in long term relationships. You go and assume that I am suggesting married people should have affairs. People who are monogamous for whatever reason seem to be in the minority but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be monogamous.
Emmz:...we should go with our delusions and have sex with other people because we shouldn't feel society pressures us into monogamy?
Dude don't you get it! Its not a question of 'delusions' its a matter of desire. Society pressures people to lie about monogamy because they force people to lie about their desires, to feel shame for their desires. Its a puritanical attitude at best. People will shag outside of their base relationships no matter what society or religion has to say on the matter. Its a reality.
Emmz: I'm not saying people who have affairs are bad people, I'm saying it's an abuse of trust, regardless of the circumstances.
It is this attitude which determines that a straying partner will lie, because of the whole 'oh you've abused trust blah blah blah'. Our society has unrealistic expectations and therefore an unsophisticated response to the subject. A sophisticated response it to throw the whole notion of trust out the window so that both partners can come to a realistic understanding of what is going on in the relationship.
Emmz: Say if someone was married for 10 years and they've come to a place where they're mostly platonic now. One, or both, parties have sexual desires for another and they go and have sex with them. It's completely understandable. Does that mean they should be open with their partner and tell them what's going on, or should they just leave that relationship the way it is and have sex with another person to satisfy their own desires/needs?
That would be up to them wouldn't it. I mean you seem to think there is a cookie cutter (a=b=c) response to such situations without acknowledging context. In other words it depends on the people, the relationship, hell sometimes it even breaks down to finances and children. You seem to think that someone just gets up one morning and says 'I'm going to have an affair today because of this that and the other' NO! Sometimes it is something that just happens. Can you imagine a married couple that isn't platonic and then one partner gets blind-sighted by a strong attraction they feel the need to experience? Your thinking seems so black and white.
Emmz: Or do you think that it's that partner's failing for believing in the understanding most people have of monogamy.
No Emmz, its the idea in itself that we are saints and that engaging in our erotic desires is somehow a 'failing'. Monogamy like I said is an inspiration not a duty.
Emmz: I agree, what society expects and our behaviour are two completely different things, but how do we resolve that realistically?
Study the French. Just kidding. If we had mature expectations of the nature of relationships then many would engage in a mature dialogue with their partners, but alas...
Emmz: Personally, I'd rather a partner said he wanted to end the relationship and that would leave him free to sleep with whoever he chooses. I think. It's never happened though, so maybe I'd feel differently.
Black and white thinking again. Why do you assume it means a lack of love for you? Why do you assume that it means the partner would even want to leave? And as for the last statement, you can never be sure its never happened to you. Want to know why? BECAUSE PEOPLE LIE!
Emmz:...we should go with our delusions and have sex with other people because we shouldn't feel society pressures us into monogamy?
Dude don't you get it! Its not a question of 'delusions' its a matter of desire. Society pressures people to lie about monogamy because they force people to lie about their desires, to feel shame for their desires. Its a puritanical attitude at best. People will shag outside of their base relationships no matter what society or religion has to say on the matter. Its a reality.
Emmz: I'm not saying people who have affairs are bad people, I'm saying it's an abuse of trust, regardless of the circumstances.
It is this attitude which determines that a straying partner will lie, because of the whole 'oh you've abused trust blah blah blah'. Our society has unrealistic expectations and therefore an unsophisticated response to the subject. A sophisticated response it to throw the whole notion of trust out the window so that both partners can come to a realistic understanding of what is going on in the relationship.
Emmz: Say if someone was married for 10 years and they've come to a place where they're mostly platonic now. One, or both, parties have sexual desires for another and they go and have sex with them. It's completely understandable. Does that mean they should be open with their partner and tell them what's going on, or should they just leave that relationship the way it is and have sex with another person to satisfy their own desires/needs?
That would be up to them wouldn't it. I mean you seem to think there is a cookie cutter (a=b=c) response to such situations without acknowledging context. In other words it depends on the people, the relationship, hell sometimes it even breaks down to finances and children. You seem to think that someone just gets up one morning and says 'I'm going to have an affair today because of this that and the other' NO! Sometimes it is something that just happens. Can you imagine a married couple that isn't platonic and then one partner gets blind-sighted by a strong attraction they feel the need to experience? Your thinking seems so black and white.
Emmz: Or do you think that it's that partner's failing for believing in the understanding most people have of monogamy.
No Emmz, its the idea in itself that we are saints and that engaging in our erotic desires is somehow a 'failing'. Monogamy like I said is an inspiration not a duty.
Emmz: I agree, what society expects and our behaviour are two completely different things, but how do we resolve that realistically?
Study the French. Just kidding. If we had mature expectations of the nature of relationships then many would engage in a mature dialogue with their partners, but alas...
Emmz: Personally, I'd rather a partner said he wanted to end the relationship and that would leave him free to sleep with whoever he chooses. I think. It's never happened though, so maybe I'd feel differently.
Black and white thinking again. Why do you assume it means a lack of love for you? Why do you assume that it means the partner would even want to leave? And as for the last statement, you can never be sure its never happened to you. Want to know why? BECAUSE PEOPLE LIE!
Lucysnow your right about the last line and thats the whole point. Most people are conditioned to associate sex with love, biologically as well as sociologically but people are also conditioned to lie (which is actually why so many people forgive cheaters).
as most people chose to associate sexual faithfulness with being faithful to the relationship its important to alot of people that there partner DOESNT cheat.
as most people chose to associate sexual faithfulness with being faithful to the relationship its important to alot of people that there partner DOESNT cheat.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Creeptology: If you practise contentment you don't need to sleep around. If you respect your partner you have no reason to sleep around.
How do you know that maybe the reason someone has an affair is because of this contentment you speak of? People have affairs because it offers thrill or something else they want to experience. Maybe they genuinely like the new person but still love their spouse. As for respect, I doubt Satre felt a deep disrespect for Smone de Beauvoir. Or that Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo's lifetime relationship was defined by disrespect. It seems you place many judgements on the human heart and its flexible ability towards desire. Don't you find the assumption of disrespect rigid? If you have never felt the charm of another then its safe to assume you know nothing of the 'reason' why someone else would.
Lisa Appignanesi on the relationship between Satre and De Beauvoir wrote:
Late in life, he admitted that he had fantasised a succession of women for himself, each one meaning everything for a given moment. De Beauvoir had astonished him by agreeing to the experiment he had outlined. She accepted the freedom he insisted on and became its custodian.
"What we have," he said early on to De Beauvoir, "is an essential love; but it is a good idea for us also to experience contingent love affairs." Recording Sartre's proposal, De Beauvoir writes: "We were two of a kind, and our relationship would endure as long as we did: but it could not make up entirely for the fleeting riches to be had from encounters with different people."
How do you know that maybe the reason someone has an affair is because of this contentment you speak of? People have affairs because it offers thrill or something else they want to experience. Maybe they genuinely like the new person but still love their spouse. As for respect, I doubt Satre felt a deep disrespect for Smone de Beauvoir. Or that Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo's lifetime relationship was defined by disrespect. It seems you place many judgements on the human heart and its flexible ability towards desire. Don't you find the assumption of disrespect rigid? If you have never felt the charm of another then its safe to assume you know nothing of the 'reason' why someone else would.
Lisa Appignanesi on the relationship between Satre and De Beauvoir wrote:
Late in life, he admitted that he had fantasised a succession of women for himself, each one meaning everything for a given moment. De Beauvoir had astonished him by agreeing to the experiment he had outlined. She accepted the freedom he insisted on and became its custodian.
"What we have," he said early on to De Beauvoir, "is an essential love; but it is a good idea for us also to experience contingent love affairs." Recording Sartre's proposal, De Beauvoir writes: "We were two of a kind, and our relationship would endure as long as we did: but it could not make up entirely for the fleeting riches to be had from encounters with different people."
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Asguard: (which is actually why so many people forgive cheaters).
I know I thought its interesting that only 17% of marriages end because of cheating. I think women are more likely to forgive an extra-marital affair.
Asguard:as most people chose to associate sexual faithfulness with being faithful to the relationship its important to alot of people that there partner DOESNT cheat.
Yes and the two do not necessarily go hand in hand. Sometimes it does but people should understand that it isn't necessarily the case.
I know I thought its interesting that only 17% of marriages end because of cheating. I think women are more likely to forgive an extra-marital affair.
Asguard:as most people chose to associate sexual faithfulness with being faithful to the relationship its important to alot of people that there partner DOESNT cheat.
Yes and the two do not necessarily go hand in hand. Sometimes it does but people should understand that it isn't necessarily the case.
Lucysnow i disagree that a person should sacrifice what makes them feel comfertable in there relationship for the gratification of there partner. Its better to sacrifice the relationship if the two (or more) cant agree on what they each expect from the other. I dont think if you find out your partner has cheated on you, people should expect you to get over it when the other person has betrayed the ground rules of the relationship. The emotions you feel when you find that out are not pleasent
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
People do for the most part what they are comfortable with. If someone feels too uncomfortable with a situation they they would naturally leave, but that doesn't build a case for or against extra-marital affairs. Obviously there are many people no matter what they say who are willing to 'get over it' otherwise we would see higher stats on people leaving a marriage due to unfaithfullness
Lucysnow1847049 said:
I don't feel I am. Obviously all my opinions on the subject can't be fully expressed on a discussion forum. If they come across as black and white then perhaps that's not because of my views but the way they're interpreted.
Lucysnow1847049 said:
I don't feel like I was assuming anything. The last part of this statement confuses me. This was what my argument all along.
Lucysnow1847049 said:
I might not get it. Not entirely. But I do think desire, or uncontrolled desire is a delusion. I'm not convinced it's society that moulds us into who we are. I'm not a product of my societal constraints. I also do not think society is a governing factor in the guilt people feel for cheating (outside of nonomic relationships). I posit it is we who feel guilt because we have perhaps gone against our own values, or broken our own moral code. If society's pressures were that endemic we wouldn't have affairs, let alone feel guilty about them.
Lucysnow1847049 said:
If one is in a nonomic relationship then no deceit takes place. If one is in a monogamous relationship then a "straying partner" is acting in a deceitful way. It's not the fear of being reprimanded that causes the strayer to lie, it's the nature of deceptive behaviour which makes them lie. Perhaps society does have unrealistic expectations of us, but really, who cares what others think? We certainly don't live our lives by what conformities are set upon us. Perhaps I am unsophisticated, I don't know, that's your opinion. Which you are very well entitled to. I do think agreeing to having an open relationship is good, but we're talking (or at least I am) of cheating in a monogamous relationship.
Emmz: Say if someone was married for 10 years and they've come to a place where they're mostly platonic now. One, or both, parties have sexual desires for another and they go and have sex with them. It's completely understandable. Does that mean they should be open with their partner and tell them what's going on, or should they just leave that relationship the way it is and have sex with another person to satisfy their own desires/needs?
Lucysnow1847049 said:
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my response, however I do feel I stipulated mitigating circumstances would be a factor. I certainly didn't mean to suggest there was one answer for all circumstances. You use of the words "straying" and "blind-sighted" also suggest to me an inner conflict for said "blind-sighted strayer". But that would be an assumption on my part, for which I apologise for.
Emmz: Or do you think that it's that partner's failing for believing in the understanding most people have of monogamy.
Lucysnow1847049 said:
I do agree with you that people do have affairs. I don't, however, see that as a failing. I'm merely saying if people want sex with other people they shouldn't be in a monogamous relationship. The fact that people suffer from delusions isn't a cause for judgement, it's a cause for compassion. I'm not sure how monogamy is an inspiration, and for whom.
Emmz: I agree, what society expects and our behaviour are two completely different things, but how do we resolve that realistically?
Lucysnow1847049 said:
And that's my point. We should be honest.
Lucysnow1847049 said:
Maybe I am black and white, I'm not sure. Sometimes I think things have a logical conclusion, perhaps that's black and white. I assume it means lack of love because if I love somebody, I love them. I cherish them, think of their needs, want their happiness, want them to be free from suffering. Cheating on them doesn't fit into that, it's contradictory to my definition of love.
I don't know for sure if I've been cheated on, like you say. But I'm a pretty spot-on judge of character and I can see through people's shit, so if I had been cheated on, I'd have a good idea.
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Emmz what part of my argument confuses you?
Emmz: But I do think desire, or uncontrolled desire is a delusion.
The definition of desire is: 'A false belief that persists even when a person has evidence that the belief is not true.' or 'an erroneous belief that is held in the face of evidence to the contrary'.
The definiton of desire is: 'the feeling that accompanies an unsatisfied state' or 'to feel for, want strongly'
Now how can one be delusional about a strong feeling or want for something?
And why should someone necessarily want to control a natural desire as attraction between two consenting adults? As long as people are responsible for their health, emotionally and physically I see no reason to have to deny oneself an experience once the desire is there.
Emmz: I'm not convinced it's society that moulds us into who we are. I'm not a product of my societal constraints.
Sure we are. We are molded by cultural, religious factors. We are molded by our education, our family, hell we are even molded by the media.
Emmz: I also do not think society is a governing factor in the guilt people feel for cheating (outside of nonomic relationships). I posit it is we who feel guilt because we have perhaps gone against our own values, or broken our own moral code. If society's pressures were that endemic we wouldn't have affairs, let alone feel guilty about them.
You may find people are forced to feel guilty about BEING HONEST about their most natural of urges, not the desirable act itself. Its the only reason why we lie. You know if we engage in something we really enjoyed we may feel regret at the outcome if there are negative consequences but not necessarily guilt. Its society that forces the lie. Why do you think Clinton lied over and over again about a behaviour he was willing to commit over and over again.
Emmz: If one is in a nonomic relationship then no deceit takes place. If one is in a monogamous relationship then a "straying partner" is acting in a deceitful way. It's not the fear of being reprimanded that causes the strayer to lie, it's the nature of deceptive behaviour which makes them lie.
And you know this how? I have 'strayed' as you put it, being in a relationship and once with a married man. I didn't regret a thing about either. But I did experience others trying to make me feel guilty for an experience I utterly enjoyed.
Emmz: Perhaps society does have unrealistic expectations of us, but really, who cares what others think?
I'm inclined to agree but many people do. I am not as dependent on society or community as many others are so I can afford to ignore it, this isn't so for many others. Its called scandal. Its the reason why Cathrine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy kept their romance secret for years and years. When a man hides his porn mags in the garage it is because he doesn't want to hear the continuous yip coming from his wife. Otherwise he would just keep them in the draw by the bed...on top of the bible.
E: We certainly don't live our lives by what conformities are set upon us
Yes we do. I would venture to say that 80% of the world does this all the time. You are fooling yourself or simply naive if you believe otherwise. People lie about their desire to cheat because they fear the response from a partner who is naive enough to believe no other desires exist because they are not meant to exist as society dictates once on marries or what-have-you
E: Or do you think that it's that partner's failing for believing in the understanding most people have of monogamy.
I am not sure if most people do have that understanding. There are many societies where it is understood that a man is going to sleep with more than one woman whether he is married or not. In france it is considered quite normal for a married man to have a mistress. But, to answer your question, I think that infidelity is blown out of proportion,the jealousy and hurt is carried by the one who carried the 'ideal'. People change and we should expect that they will change. We cannot assume that a man who loves a woman and only wants to sleep with her will not after some time change. Its life. He may love a woman deeply but still want to experience something different. What's wrong with that?
E: The fact that people suffer from delusions isn't a cause for judgement, it's a cause for compassion
What an arrogant statement. You really need to explain your use of the word delusion in the context of this topic and why you feel the need to have compassion for people who simply want to enjoy themselves.
E: I'm merely saying if people want sex with other people they shouldn't be in a monogamous relationship.
Its not as if people plan out their affairs. You marry one day, pledge monogamy, believe it at the time...and then one day you may feel deeply for another experience, it doesn't mean you want to give up the original relationship.
E: I'm not sure how monogamy is an inspiration, and for whom.
You wouldn't. You don't seem to have experienced such a strong erotic desire...hence being blind-sighted ergo you don't understand being so inspired towards someone that monogamy becomes something outside of duty. Your not thinking duty because all your desire is wrapped up in the one who can keep you...'strung out' on them alone. Very few people are capable of creating that but I am happy I have experienced it on a few occasions.
E: I agree, what society expects and our behaviour are two completely different things, but how do we resolve that realistically?
By growing up.
Emmz: But I do think desire, or uncontrolled desire is a delusion.
The definition of desire is: 'A false belief that persists even when a person has evidence that the belief is not true.' or 'an erroneous belief that is held in the face of evidence to the contrary'.
The definiton of desire is: 'the feeling that accompanies an unsatisfied state' or 'to feel for, want strongly'
Now how can one be delusional about a strong feeling or want for something?
And why should someone necessarily want to control a natural desire as attraction between two consenting adults? As long as people are responsible for their health, emotionally and physically I see no reason to have to deny oneself an experience once the desire is there.
Emmz: I'm not convinced it's society that moulds us into who we are. I'm not a product of my societal constraints.
Sure we are. We are molded by cultural, religious factors. We are molded by our education, our family, hell we are even molded by the media.
Emmz: I also do not think society is a governing factor in the guilt people feel for cheating (outside of nonomic relationships). I posit it is we who feel guilt because we have perhaps gone against our own values, or broken our own moral code. If society's pressures were that endemic we wouldn't have affairs, let alone feel guilty about them.
You may find people are forced to feel guilty about BEING HONEST about their most natural of urges, not the desirable act itself. Its the only reason why we lie. You know if we engage in something we really enjoyed we may feel regret at the outcome if there are negative consequences but not necessarily guilt. Its society that forces the lie. Why do you think Clinton lied over and over again about a behaviour he was willing to commit over and over again.
Emmz: If one is in a nonomic relationship then no deceit takes place. If one is in a monogamous relationship then a "straying partner" is acting in a deceitful way. It's not the fear of being reprimanded that causes the strayer to lie, it's the nature of deceptive behaviour which makes them lie.
And you know this how? I have 'strayed' as you put it, being in a relationship and once with a married man. I didn't regret a thing about either. But I did experience others trying to make me feel guilty for an experience I utterly enjoyed.
Emmz: Perhaps society does have unrealistic expectations of us, but really, who cares what others think?
I'm inclined to agree but many people do. I am not as dependent on society or community as many others are so I can afford to ignore it, this isn't so for many others. Its called scandal. Its the reason why Cathrine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy kept their romance secret for years and years. When a man hides his porn mags in the garage it is because he doesn't want to hear the continuous yip coming from his wife. Otherwise he would just keep them in the draw by the bed...on top of the bible.
E: We certainly don't live our lives by what conformities are set upon us
Yes we do. I would venture to say that 80% of the world does this all the time. You are fooling yourself or simply naive if you believe otherwise. People lie about their desire to cheat because they fear the response from a partner who is naive enough to believe no other desires exist because they are not meant to exist as society dictates once on marries or what-have-you
E: Or do you think that it's that partner's failing for believing in the understanding most people have of monogamy.
I am not sure if most people do have that understanding. There are many societies where it is understood that a man is going to sleep with more than one woman whether he is married or not. In france it is considered quite normal for a married man to have a mistress. But, to answer your question, I think that infidelity is blown out of proportion,the jealousy and hurt is carried by the one who carried the 'ideal'. People change and we should expect that they will change. We cannot assume that a man who loves a woman and only wants to sleep with her will not after some time change. Its life. He may love a woman deeply but still want to experience something different. What's wrong with that?
E: The fact that people suffer from delusions isn't a cause for judgement, it's a cause for compassion
What an arrogant statement. You really need to explain your use of the word delusion in the context of this topic and why you feel the need to have compassion for people who simply want to enjoy themselves.
E: I'm merely saying if people want sex with other people they shouldn't be in a monogamous relationship.
Its not as if people plan out their affairs. You marry one day, pledge monogamy, believe it at the time...and then one day you may feel deeply for another experience, it doesn't mean you want to give up the original relationship.
E: I'm not sure how monogamy is an inspiration, and for whom.
You wouldn't. You don't seem to have experienced such a strong erotic desire...hence being blind-sighted ergo you don't understand being so inspired towards someone that monogamy becomes something outside of duty. Your not thinking duty because all your desire is wrapped up in the one who can keep you...'strung out' on them alone. Very few people are capable of creating that but I am happy I have experienced it on a few occasions.
E: I agree, what society expects and our behaviour are two completely different things, but how do we resolve that realistically?
By growing up.
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