Is Richard Goldstone a liar, an antisemite and a biased hater?

[pjdude1219]

Oh wait, as I've said before, the REAL villains are the Europeans who didn't want the Jewish refugees to come home after WWII. The only country in which that experiment was tried was Poland, and the Poles simply started killing them all over again.

um not true. their was no concerted polish effort to kill the jews. their were incidents where poles reacted badly. I'm not denying that. but their was efforts undertaken to delibritely inflame and encourage such actions. not to mention jewish collaboration with the soviets which painted jews as being pro-russian. Most people tend not to react well to people who are for a group trying to exterminate them.

If the Jews, who thought of themselves as Europeans first and Jews second, had simply been allowed to go home, even if "home" was a bomb crater that needed a teeny bit of remodeling, 99% of them would have happily gone back and there would be no Israel except as a metaphor

bullshit. they were pushing for the creation before hand. your trying to give them a pass for their actions. what ever happened to them doesn't excuse waging a war of conquest because a people don't wish to give up their recognized right to sovriegnty over a territory simply because you demand it.

 

[quadraphonics]

well for one thing jews aren't a race or an ethnicity they are a religion plain and simple.

Well, no. Judaism defines itself as a nation. It has an ethnic component, and a religious component, but at the end of the day is a nation. I.e., an identity group that considers itself entitled to political self-determination.

secondly they had numerous opertunities to return to PALESTINE but chose not to. many had the wealth to travel their and didn't. More than once they were offered the ability and chance to return and declined. africans are a group of ethnicities and they never had the chance to return.

Not following you - didn't Israel come to be exactly because a lot of Jews returned to Palestine? And similarly with Liberia? What are you talking about?

 

[quadraphonics]

um not true. their was no concerted polish effort to kill the jews. their were incidents where poles reacted badly. I'm not denying that. but their was efforts undertaken to delibritely inflame and encourage such actions. not to mention jewish collaboration with the soviets which painted jews as being pro-russian. Most people tend not to react well to people who are for a group trying to exterminate them.

You need to pick a story, there, and not try to have it both ways.

bullshit. they were pushing for the creation before hand.

Who is "they?" It's not in dispute that there was an active Zionist movement before WWII. The contention is that such would never have attracted enough immigrants from the diaspora to make an independent state viable, absent the Holocaust. Jews are not some monolith - you're talking about millions of people spread out all over various continents, encompassing a broad range of ideas about where they ought to live and on what political terms. The Holocaust crystallized much of that, exactly by decisively closing off various of the more popular alternatives to Zionism. The choice became Israel or the USA, and so we see that >90% of the world's Jews live in those two countries (in about equal numbers).

your trying to give them a pass for their actions.

I don't think he is, as such. Accuracy about the factors and causes of the situation is not the same thing as an excuse, really. It's more that he's refusing to let Europe off the hook for their huge role in it all.

what ever happened to them doesn't excuse waging a war of conquest because a people don't wish to give up their recognized right to sovriegnty over a territory simply because you demand it.

That Palestine never possessed any recognized sovereignty over the territories in question is a big part of how the situation arose. Palestine wasn't even recognized as a nation at all until well after the formation of Israel - indeed, the consensus seems to be that Palestinian nationality arose in reaction to the impingement of Jewish nationality. Which pretty much forecloses the premise that there was a recognized, sovereign Palestinian nation there before Zionists showed up.

 

[pjdude1219]

Well, no. Judaism defines itself as a nation.

caliing ones self something and being something aren't the same.

It has an ethnic component, and a religious component, but at the end of the day is a nation.

only to the guillible. A nation is more than beief in a certain magic sky fairy. real nations have languages, custems, cuisenses and alsorts of things connecting them. the jews have religion and only religion and things a part of that religion connecting them.

I.e., an identity group that considers itself entitled to political self-determination

wrong even if they were a nation, which they aren't, they still wouldn't have been entitled to political self determination because self determination doesn't work that way. its invested in the people of a territory not nations or ethnic groups. the only time it is invested in ethnic groups is when they are denied it in their territory you know like the palestinians.

Not following you

you wouldn't.

- didn't Israel come to be exactly because a lot of Jews returned to Palestine?

only in the lossest sense. the africans PEACEFULLY settled in liberia and created a state where very one had roughly the same rights. Israel was created through a war of agression against the large native non jewish majority and created a state that favored those who conqured it. nothing at all alike.

What are you talking about?

the Israeli war of independence( one of the most oxymoronic and orwellian names for a war I have ever seen) or as I call it the war of jewish(zionist) conquest

 

[pjdude1219]

You need to pick a story, there, and not try to have it both ways

I'm not having it both ways. both are a part of what happened and are a part of the polish mindset.

Who is "they?" It's not in dispute that there was an active Zionist movement before WWII. The contention is that such would never have attracted enough immigrants from the diaspora to make an independent state viable, absent the Holocaust. Jews are not some monolith - you're talking about millions of people spread out all over various continents, encompassing a broad range of ideas about where they ought to live and on what political terms. The Holocaust crystallized much of that, exactly by decisively closing off various of the more popular alternatives to Zionism. The choice became Israel or the USA, and so we see that >90% of the world's Jews live in those two countries (in about equal numbers).

funny how you rush to point that jews aren't a monolithic group but have no problem at all with Fraggle making a point that implies poles monlithically hated jews.

I don't think he is, as such. Accuracy about the factors and causes of the situation is not the same thing as an excuse, really. It's more that he's refusing to let Europe off the hook for their huge role in it all.

Yet he didn't say it was wrong now did he?

That Palestine never possessed any recognized sovereignty over the territories in question is a big part of how the situation arose.

the class A mandates mention that those terriories were able to functuion independently and that the sovriegnty was to be held until a functioning government by the population could come about. the Sovriegnty was being held in trust. the mandates recognized the right of the population of the terriotry to rule it.

Palestine wasn't even recognized as a nation at all until well after the formation of Israel -

because of perjudices and guilt.

indeed, the consensus seems to be that Palestinian nationality arose in reaction to the impingement of Jewish nationality. Which pretty much forecloses the premise that there was a recognized, sovereign Palestinian nation there before Zionists showed up.

the only group of people that have that consesus is the people who feel the palestinians need to be denied their lawful rights. Most of us realize they existed well before 1967

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

well for one thing jews aren't a race or an ethnicity they are a religion plain and simple.

Omigod, we've got a member here who knows even less about the Jews than Sam does! I could dig up one of my old lectures to her and quote it, but I'll just retype it.

Jewish or Jew can mean any or all of the following:

• A descendant of the particular Canaanite ethnic group that spoke Hebrew and went on to develop Judaism. "Descendant" is defined in many ways. In the laws of the modern State of Israel it is a person with a Jewish mother; a recursive definition that nonetheless has withstood decades of use, often tragically. In Nazi Germany it was a person who was at least one-fourth Jewish by ancestry; another recursive definition that landed many Christians, even nuns, in the gas chambers.
• A believer in the Jewish religion established by Abraham and modified by the ancient Israelites and more recently by rabbis. Judaism is not an evangelical religion; converts are not solicited or even welcomed; most members of the faith had at least one Jewish parent, and most converts are women who took Jewish husbands, nagged to death by their in-laws because otherwise their grandchildren would not be Jews.
• A person who identifies with the Jewish community in a cosmopolitan nation with extensive freedom of religion like the USA. Many people who identify themselves as American Jews are not religious and may even be atheists, and their DNA may be difficult to trace to a bona fide Jewish ancestor. It helps if they observe the most important customs like a Passover seder and can toss around some Yiddish words. Note that Judaism is a religion of laws rather than dogma, so it is quite acceptable for a "Jew" to question the existence of God so long as his worldly activities pass muster.

secondly they had numerous opertunities to return to PALESTINE but chose not to.

Before WWII there was a common toast at Jewish dinner parties: "Next year in Jerusalem!" It was simply an expression of solidarity--fictitious solidarity since the Ashkenazim (Eastern European Jews) looked down on the Sephardim (Spanish, North African and Levantine Jews). You don't hear this one any more! And there is plenty of friction between the two communities in Israel.

many had the wealth to travel their and didn't. More than once they were offered the ability and chance to return and declined.

To quote an old lady I met in the West Hollywood Jewish community forty years ago, "Who would have wanted to leave London, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin, Vienna, Rome, Prague, Budapest or any other great European city to go live in the farschlagener desert?"

africans are a group of ethnicities and they never had the chance to return.

Actually a few did, in the 19th Century when President Monroe established the nation of Liberia. That's why the country's capital is named Monrovia.

um not true. their was no concerted polish effort to kill the jews.

Only one Jewish shtetl was rebuilt in Poland, over the objections of General McArthur, who was in charge of the refugees. The Polish people murdered the majority of the people who settled there.

bullshit. they were pushing for the creation before hand.

Zionism was a small movement started by a bunch of university students with too much time and education and not enough work, very much like the La Raza movement among Americans of Mexican descent who can't even speak Spanish. The majority of European Jews had no interest in moving to the desert and being surrounded by Muslims. The Europeans were difficult enough! If anything, they would have preferred to emigrate to America, but we closed our borders to them during the Holocaust. An entire shipload of refugees was floating around off the southern Atlantic coast looking for a place to dock. You know who welcomed them with open arms? Haiti! The country that the leading American Christian evangelist said deserved their earthquake because they were sinners.

your trying to give them a pass for their actions. what ever happened to them doesn't excuse waging a war of conquest because a people don't wish to give up their recognized right to sovriegnty over a territory simply because you demand it.

You haven't read enough of my posts or you would know that I'm no friend of Israel. It's a goddamned theocracy run by racists! How much worse can a country be without resurrecting communism? I just believe that understanding how this situation came to pass is fundamental to resolving it.

 

[quadraphonics]

caliing ones self something and being something aren't the same.

They are when it comes to identity politics.

only to the guillible. A nation is more than beief in a certain magic sky fairy. real nations have languages, custems, cuisenses and alsorts of things connecting them. the jews have religion and only religion and things a part of that religion connecting them.

The Jews have all of the things you list. And even if they didn't, it wouldn't matter. The thing about identity politics, is that they aren't subject to the veto of outsiders. If a group of people decides that they constitute a nation, and acts accordingly, then they are a nation. That's all there is to it.

wrong even if they were a nation, which they aren't, they still wouldn't have been entitled to political self determination because self determination doesn't work that way. its invested in the people of a territory not nations or ethnic groups. the only time it is invested in ethnic groups is when they are denied it in their territory you know like the palestinians.

No, the current international system is one of nation-states. It works on the principle that nations are entitled to political self-determination, as well as a sovereign territory and state governing such. This is the basis for the geopolitical organization of the entire world, these days.

This is exactly the basis for Palestinian self-determination as well, note. The dispute is simply over which nation is entitled to which exact piece of land. That both are inherently entitled to self-determination, and some territory and state somewhere, is not in any real dispute.

only in the lossest sense. the africans PEACEFULLY settled in liberia and created a state where very one had roughly the same rights.

Is that what you think? You should probably familiarize yourself with the basics of Liberian history before you engage in discussions of such.

funny how you rush to point that jews aren't a monolithic group but have no problem at all with Fraggle making a point that implies poles monlithically hated jews.

Not if you make even a modest effort to think it through. That antisemites are prone to viewing the Jews as a monolith should go without saying, especially in the immediate context. And that the Poles hated the Polish Jews, doesn't really have any bearing on how monolithic (or not) the worldwide diaspora was/is. Try a bit harder next time, eh?

Yet he didn't say it was wrong now did he?

This whole insistence around here that anybody who says anything about Israel without including some bold-type disclaimer about how bad the Joos are is necessarily a Zionist apologist, is getting pretty fucking tired. And it was stilted and juvenile to begin with.

the class A mandates mention that those terriories were able to functuion independently and that the sovriegnty was to be held until a functioning government by the population could come about. the Sovriegnty was being held in trust. the mandates recognized the right of the population of the terriotry to rule it.

And there you go. That an imperial power deigns to hold your sovereignty "in trust," is exactly an absence of sovereignty.

because of perjudices and guilt.

Because said nation was a recent development.

the only group of people that have that consesus is the people who feel the palestinians need to be denied their lawful rights. Most of us realize they existed well before 1967

"Before the Zionists showed up" would imply something more like 1867 - back when the Ottoman Empire exercised sovereignty over the territory in question. Nobody disputes that there was an actual nationality there by 1967.

 

[pjdude1219]

Omigod, we've got a member here who knows even less about the Jews than Sam does! I could dig up one of my old lectures to her and quote it, but I'll just retype it.

Jewish or Jew can mean any or all of the following:

• A descendant of the particular Canaanite ethnic group that spoke Hebrew and went on to develop Judaism. "Descendant" is defined in many ways. In the laws of the modern State of Israel it is a person with a Jewish mother; a recursive definition that nonetheless has withstood decades of use, often tragically. In Nazi Germany it was a person who was at least one-fourth Jewish by ancestry; another recursive definition that landed many Christians, even nuns, in the gas chambers.
• A believer in the Jewish religion established by Abraham and modified by the ancient Israelites and more recently by rabbis. Judaism is not an evangelical religion; converts are not solicited or even welcomed; most members of the faith had at least one Jewish parent, and most converts are women who took Jewish husbands, nagged to death by their in-laws because otherwise their grandchildren would not be Jews.
• A person who identifies with the Jewish community in a cosmopolitan nation with extensive freedom of religion like the USA. Many people who identify themselves as American Jews are not religious and may even be atheists, and their DNA may be difficult to trace to a bona fide Jewish ancestor. It helps if they observe the most important customs like a Passover seder and can toss around some Yiddish words. Note that Judaism is a religion of laws rather than dogma, so it is quite acceptable for a "Jew" to question the existence of God so long as his worldly activities pass muster.

• you've proved my point. that connections are based not in culture nor in blood but the linkage to the faith.

Before WWII there was a common toast at Jewish dinner parties: "Next year in Jerusalem!" It was simply an expression of solidarity--fictitious solidarity since the Ashkenazim (Eastern European Jews) looked down on the Sephardim (Spanish, North African and Levantine Jews). You don't hear this one any more!

there is no need they have conqured the city. also why do you leave out the western european jewery?

And there is plenty of friction between the two communities in Israel.

because culturally they became European with all the arrogance with it.

To quote an old lady I met in the West Hollywood Jewish community forty years ago, "Who would have wanted to leave London, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin, Vienna, Rome, Prague, Budapest or any other great European city to go live in the farschlagener desert?"

power, "freedom" the ability to treat people as they had been treated, or misguided religious fwevor

Actually a few did, in the 19th Century when President Monroe established the nation of Liberia.

after the fact and most managed to get their through other's funding theyu had no capability of getting there on their own.

Only one Jewish shtetl was rebuilt in Poland, over the objections of General McArthur, who was in charge of the refugees.

more could have.

The Polish people murdered the majority of the people who settled there.

take your double standard and shove it. The polish people didn't kill them poles in the area did. It was not the policy of the state to do so so please do not make it to be so. And don't tell me you didn't mean to. Your knowledgable in language so you know damn well the implications of your statement.

Zionism was a small movement started by a bunch of university students with too much time and education and not enough work, very much like the La Raza movement among Americans of Mexican descent who can't even speak Spanish.

IT orginals are irrelevant.

The majority of European Jews had no interest in moving to the desert and being surrounded by Muslims.

which is why post war they chose to conqurer it.

The Europeans were difficult enough! If anything, they would have preferred to emigrate to America,

why American is culturally European wouldn't that be exchanging one group for another.

but we closed our borders to them during the Holocaust. An entire shipload of refugees was floating around off the southern Atlantic coast looking for a place to dock. You know who welcomed them with open arms? Haiti! The country that the leading American Christian evangelist said deserved their earthquake because they were sinners.[/b

I know the history.

]You haven't read enough of my posts or you would know that I'm no friend of Israel.

you can claim to be no friend of ISrael your arguments provide cover for the countries crimes all the same.

It's a goddamned theocracy run by racists!

but you said the jews were a nation the only way it could be a theocracy is if they were sole a religion.

How much worse can a country be without resurrecting communism?

quite.

I just believe that understanding how this situation came to pass is fundamental to resolving it.

Than why don't you stand up for the facts behind the palestinian narrative? because all I got from your posts was the holocaust so they went to palestine yeah them.

 

[pjdude1219]

They are when it comes to identity politics.

so it ok to make shit up to steal peoples rights?

The Jews have all of the things you list. And even if they didn't, it wouldn't matter. The thing about identity politics, is that they aren't subject to the veto of outsiders. If a group of people decides that they constitute a nation, and acts accordingly, then they are a nation. That's all there is to it.

no they don't. and its not about identity politics is about the definitions of words and facts. Your as ignorant of self determination as all the other suppoortes of ISrael's crimes. the jews are a religion.

No, the current international system is one of nation-states. It works on the principle that nations are entitled to political self-determination, as well as a sovereign territory and state governing such. This is the basis for the geopolitical organization of the entire world, these days.

true for the most part which is why travesties like Israel and the vatican are an affront. and the very parts of international law describve nations as being the people of a terriory not some religios groups.

This is exactly the basis for Palestinian self-determination as well, note. The dispute is simply over which nation is entitled to which exact piece of land. That both are inherently entitled to self-determination, and some territory and state somewhere, is not in any real dispute.

wrong the jews are not entiled to self detemination in palestine. the palestinians are whether they be jewish, christian, muslim or anything else.

Not if you make even a modest effort to think it through.

I knoe what the language means. I know what the phrase THE POLISH PEOPLE means. quit making excuses.

That antisemites are prone to viewing the Jews as a monolith should go without saying, especially in the immediate context.

what does that have to do with fraggle claiming all poles hated jews?

And that the Poles hated the Polish Jews, doesn't really have any bearing on how monolithic (or not) the worldwide diaspora was/is.

again what does the jews un monolithic state having anything to do with the acvcusation that the polish monolithicly hated jews.

Try a bit harder next time, eh?

fuck you you don't get to repeat bigoted slurs against a people and than tell me to try harder. when you and fraggle and quit claiming all poles hate jews than you can tell me to try harder.

This whole insistence around here that anybody who says anything about Israel without including some bold-type disclaimer about how bad the Joos are is necessarily a Zionist apologist, is getting pretty fucking tired. And it was stilted and juvenile to begin with.

oh woe is you

And there you go. That an imperial power deigns to hold your sovereignty "in trust," is exactly an absence of sovereignty.

true but at the same time the recognizition remains that it was the palestinians terriory no matter how much Israel apoligist are anti arab people say other wise.

Because said nation was a recent development.

and I suppose Jordan the palestinian state. palestinian nationalism dates back to at least he late 1800's

"Before the Zionists showed up" would imply something more like 1867 - back when the Ottoman Empire exercised sovereignty over the territory in question. Nobody disputes that there was an actual nationality there by 1967.

Yes and most decent people don't dispute before hand either.

 

[parmalee]

you've proved my point. that connections are based not in culture nor in blood but the linkage to the faith.

???

Mind explaining how exactly Fraggle "proved (your) point"? With explicit reference to each of the three categories of criteria Fraggle listed, please.

 

[S.A.M.]

So, anyone with any opinions on why Richard Goldstone did a 180 on the Gaza massacre?

I'm still hoping that he abandons his attachment to zionism and prefers to support the evidence like the other members of the UN fact finding mission. It would be very sad if his lifelong legacy would be surrendered to the pretence that Israel's actions in Gaza were not intentional. One does not shoot small children in the chest at close range "by mistake". And the consequences of covering up Israeli crimes could be monumental

Israeli NGO to Goldstone: Your statement is already being used to justify and legitimize future crimes

???

Mind explaining how exactly Fraggle "proved (your) point"? With explicit reference to each of the three categories of criteria Fraggle listed, please.

In Israel it is the religious Jewish court which decides who is a Jew. If Judaism is a race, people should not be able to convert to it. If its a religion, then there should not be atheist Jews [what is an atheist Jew?]

I think Jews are like Parsis/Brahmins. They are neither a race nor a religion, just an anachronism leftover from an era when religion was determined by birth and race - surviving in an age when racism is politically incorrect and religion a matter of choice

 

[James R]

SAM:

I think you'll find that it is generally accepted that if you have a Jewish mother then you are Jewish.

Whether that makes being a Jew a "race" depends on your definition of race, I guess.

As for Judaism - it is a religion. Followers of Judaism believe in one God. Their holiest book is the Torah.

It is possible to be a Jew by birth and yet not to believe in Judaism the religion. Maybe you're confusing the two things, which might be understandable since they are often conflated.

An atheist Jew would be a person of Jewish descent who does not believe in gods.

I'm surprised you're ignorant of all this, given your fixation on such matters.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think you'll find that it is generally accepted that if you have a Jewish mother then you are Jewish.

and:

As for Judaism - it is a religion

So what happens if your Jewish mother converts to Islam? And the kid is an atheist? Does the Jewish descent get flushed out with a change in belief? Or is the kid Jewish because his mother was born to a Jewish mother and was Jewish for some time? Or does the kid lose status as a Jew when his mother converts? If the mother is not religious is the kid still Jewish?

What happens if the Jewish mother marries a Christian man and the kid is baptised and receives holy communion? Is the kid still Jewish?

What does an atheist Jew believe in that makes him different from a non-Jewish atheist? That Jewishness is conferred by mother's blood (unless she converts)?

Hindus have similar notions of religion by blood [hence the caste system - ie cannot change your caste] and so do Parsis so its not a novel belief

However it is anachronistic in the modern world. Most educated people recognise the fact that religion is not racially conferred but is a choice which includes being non-religious.

 

[GeoffP]

When do we get to hear S.A.M.'s retraction?

Obviously he was kidnapped and brainwashed by Zionist Mossad forces and now stalks the Earth as a hasbara-spewing propaganda zombie, duh!

Oooh. Likey. So, Sam: when can we expect your retraction?

 

[S.A.M.]

Retraction of what? That he is a liar, an antisemite and a biased hater? Or that he is not? The jury is still out, it seems. I'm assiduously reading Goldberg's opinion columns for the conclusion. Currently he is branded as a liar by one side, an antisemite by the other and both sides accuse him of bias

I don't blame him though, it took three years of continuous pressure before he succumbed and he must know that the other investigators on the UN mission are not hampered by the same difficulties he is. Its a Gordian knot and I don't blame him for opting to be known as misguided rather than an antisemite. I believe he is essentially a good person but it must be hard for an honorable man to face social ostracism of such scale from his own community. I believe they did not even let him attend his grandson's bar mitzvah.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

and:



So what happens if your Jewish mother converts to Islam? And the kid is an atheist? Does the Jewish descent get flushed out with a change in belief? Or is the kid Jewish because his mother was born to a Jewish mother and was Jewish for some time? Or does the kid lose status as a Jew when his mother converts? If the mother is not religious is the kid still Jewish?

What happens if the Jewish mother marries a Christian man and the kid is baptised and receives holy communion? Is the kid still Jewish?

The kid's still jewish. To other Jews the kid's still jewish just with confused parents

Oh yeah and the mother she's still a jew too!

 

[S.A.M.]

The kid's still jewish. To other Jews the kid's still jewish just with confused parents

Oh yeah and the mother's still a jew too!

For how many generations? Are Palestinians of Jewish descent Jewish?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

For how many generations? Are Palestinians of Jewish descent Jewish?

For as many generations as its known that one is jewish. Palestinian jews are still jews.

 

[S.A.M.]

For as many generations as its known that one is jewish. Palestinian jews are still jews.

Hmm so if a Palestinian who is Muslim/Christian/Atheist can trace descent from some ancient Jewish grandmother, they can get official status as Jews in Palestine?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Hmm so if a Palestinian who is Muslim/Christian/Atheist can trace descent from some ancient Jewish grandmother, they can get official status as Jews in Palestine?

If you can prove you're a jew you're a jew. The community may want to deny them but the rabbi cannot.


*Totally off-topic*

I just looked at this article and couldn't help laughing because it was just so...well...weird:

An Austrian pastry maker says he's sorry about baking cakes with Nazi themes after a Holocaust survivors' group revealed that he had been baking cakes with elaborate Nazi designs.
The Mauthausen Committee says the bakery, located in the village of Maria Enzersdorf near Vienna, offers cakes adorned with a sugary swastika or with a baby raising its right hand in a Nazi salute, pictures in his catalogue show. Pastry chef Manfred Klaschka told broadcaster ORF at his cafe Tuesday that "if someone orders it, I make it." He added he's absolutely not a racist and is currently working on a cake for Turkish clients.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...es-for-making-swastika-branded-cakes-1.354654

I mean the strange part isn't the cakes themselves but the realization that there are people who are requesting them. I mean I doubt he just decided to place these cakes in a catalogue unless there were ample people who had already wanted them.:shrug:

Anyway back to the topic at hand.