Is it wrong to have sex for fun, knowing it might possibly lead to an abortion?

[Beer w/Straw]

That majority consensus of bacteria is not Free Will and you know this very well.

If Free Will exists, it cannot come from a Deterministic Naturalistic Universe. You know this deep inside. It is self evident to everyone on Earth.

Why don't you declare martyrdom while you're at it?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

What?

Chance is not a real thing, it is not a real force in the Universe, it is only a calculated probability. It is only a concept, an abstraction, a thought in the mind. It has no power to do anything because it is not.

Determinism is all there would be in Atheism, no room for chance.

You would be a robot.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

Chance is not a real thing, it is not a real force in the Universe, it is only a calculated probability. It is only a concept, an abstraction, a thought in the mind.

Determinism is all there would be in Atheism, no room for chance.

You would be a robot.

I don't think you even know what you're talking about.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Are you saying they have no choice? Bacteria act by majority concensus (vote), is that choice?
And you are so wrong. It is true that evolution is a movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction, a probabilistic deterministic imperative.

Against that random deterministic function works "natural selection", a probabilistic function that randomly selects out individuals, affecting the resultant population size of that specific line.

Two probabilistic dynamical functions create sufficient "superpositions" or "variable" future Implicates. Remember, at Planck scale we deal with "uncertainty" (a mathematical feed-back function in quantum mechanics, not a feed-forward hard "mathematical" determinism.

There is a universe of distance between Planck scale and Life-size scale. What we perceive as a continuous chronology forward in time, our reality is a projection of three dimensional patterns in an ocean of dynamic patterns at such small scales as to completely disappear from detection.

When we get down to pure energy, we enter the realm of chaos. Yet, from the chaos emerge dynamic fields consisting of virtual particles (Higgs) which have no physical presence, but affect the field for an instant.
Randomness abounds in these fields, yet once again from the dynamic movement within the fields emerge patterns which eventually form physical expression, such as the elementary particles.

From that point determinism becomes hard, except for pockets in the universe where unimaginable big supernovae or black holes defy all mundane natural laws and determinism goes out the window for awhile. And why not? After all the universe itself is a dynamic pattern with unknowable boundaries. So what? At Life-size scale determinism works just fine and a good thing it is. We would not want to lose the sun overnight, would we?
Could we lose God overnight without notice?

And how exactly does belief in a God change that Free Will equation in theists and atheists?

First, there is a major philosophical concept of Compatibilism. That's what you are selling, no?

Free Will in an otherwise deterministic world allows you to do what? Change the world? Change the Universe?

Nothing in the Atheistic Natural Universe is random in actuality, it only looks that way because we are currently ignorant of the Deterministic cause behind it. Science believes that as an article of faith.

Free Will could not actually exist in an Atheistic Naturalistic Universe, it would only appear to exist.

You know this already.

 

[Write4U]

Nothing in the Atheistic Natural Universe is random in actuality, it only looks that way because we are currently ignorant of the Deterministic cause behind it. Science believes that as an article of faith.

Free Will could not actually exist in an Atheistic Naturalistic Universe, it would only appear to exist.

You know this already.

LOL, what makes you think you are exempt from your own standards of "appearances".

 

[billvon]

Free Will could not actually exist in an Atheistic Naturalistic Universe, it would only appear to exist.

Why do you believe that? One of the more thought-provoking discoveries that has come out of science in the past 50 years is that not only do we not know the future, it is impossible to know the future to a high degree of accuracy.

 

[billvon]

I think God’s creation is good but that we have corrupted it, so I wish we did not murder any children period. This was never His desire for us.

If that was never his desire, he would not cause genetic defects in children that killed them.

I've had two close friends go through this. One had a child born with thanatophoric dysplasia; she lived about five minutes after being born. Another had type 1 SMA. He lived for almost a year, slowly suffocating, until he died.

So apparently that is His desire for children. Honestly I can't see any difference between abortion and bringing a baby to term in cases like the above. Heck, abortion is probably the more humane thing to do in such cases.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

LOL, what makes you think you are exempt from your own standards of "appearances".

We are all exempt from the Naturalistic Only View because we have a spirit that operates separately from nature. And that is why none of us are robots. That is why we actually do have a Free Will. That is why we still exist after our body dies, and on and on it goes. That is even why love exists.

The Naturalistic Only View of our brain cannot produce Free Will, only determinism. Only chemical reactions preordained by the Universe.

As I said earlier, Evolutionarily Science is headed this way. Determinism!

 

[billvon]

We are all exempt from the Naturalistic Only View because we have a spirit that operates separately from nature. And that is why none of us are robots. That is why we actually do have a Free Will. That is why we still exist after our body dies, and on and on it goes. That is even why love exists.

?? Plenty of animals have free will, and exhibit love, loyalty, compassion etc. It's not unique to humans.

The Naturalistic Only View of our brain cannot produce Free Will, only determinism. Only chemical reactions preordained by the Universe.

Science teaches us that we cannot predict the future. It's not just hard, it's impossible. So no determinism.

As I said earlier, Evolutionarily Science is headed this way. Determinism!

Nope. We can predict what's going to happen within bounds, but we will never be able to predict things 100%.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

If that was never his desire, he would not cause genetic defects in children that killed them.

I've had two close friends go through this. One had a child born with thanatophoric dysplasia; she lived about five minutes after being born. Another had type 1 SMA. He lived for almost a year, slowly suffocating, until he died.

So apparently that is His desire for children. Honestly I can't see any difference between abortion and bringing a baby to term in cases like the above. Heck, abortion is probably the more humane thing to do in such cases.

I am so sorry, these kinds of things were never part of God’s original design and plan for us.

We rejected Him, His provision, His protection, so He gave us what we wanted, a world mostly without Him.

He stepped back and let us corrupt it. We are at the point now where we can commit suicide as an entire race in a matter of minutes. We are the bees knees!!!

Those are the result of the corruption of human genetics, the direction it naturally heads without Him.

 

[sideshowbob]

... we have a spirit that operates separately from nature.

What some people call "spirit" is a completely natural electro-chemical process, part of the mind.

And that is why none of us are robots.

We might very well be robots - but there are far too many variables in our programming for us to predict our actions perfectly. That results in the illusion of "free will".

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Science teaches us that we cannot predict the future.

We can predict what's going to happen within bounds, but we will never be able to predict things 100%.

This makes sense to you?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

We might very well be robots - but there are far too many variables in our programming for us to predict our actions perfectly. That results in the illusion of "free will".

Thank You!

 

[billvon]

I am so sorry, these kinds of things were never part of God’s original design and plan for us.

If you take the perspective that God is omnipotent, then they are part of God's plan.

Those are the result of the corruption of human genetics, the direction it naturally heads without Him.

"The corruption of human genetics?" In what way?

 

[Beer w/Straw]

This makes sense to you?

Is the speed of light a constant?

 

[billvon]

This makes sense to you?

Yes.

One of the outcomes of the study of quantum theory is that there are some things you cannot know (like the position and velocity of a particle, or when an isotope will decay.) So we can predict things at a macroscopic level with good accuracy (i.e. what the weather will do tomorrow, how long a battery will last) but as you look more and more closely, that ability declines - since you can no longer use averaging to get a likely behavior.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Is the speed of light a constant?

I am not sure anymore, there seems to be a little bit of a debate going on about that one.

What do you think?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Yes.

One of the outcomes of the study of quantum theory is that there are some things you cannot know (like the position and velocity of a particle, or when an isotope will decay.) So we can predict things at a macroscopic level with good accuracy (i.e. what the weather will do tomorrow, how long a battery will last) but as you look more and more closely, that ability declines - since you can no longer use averaging to get a likely behavior.

Ok, got Ya!

 

[SetiAlpha6]

If you take the perspective that God is omnipotent, then they are part of God's plan.

"The corruption of human genetics?" In what way?

Just because God is omnipotent, that does not mean that He cannot limit how He uses His power as He wishes, whenever He wishes to.

By the way I am not a Calvinist, that belief system is way off.

Perhaps I am wrong! Please correct me! How does thanatophoric dysplasia come about, because of a genetic corruption or because of another way? I would appreciate it. Thanks!

 

[Beer w/Straw]

I am not sure anymore, there seems to be a little bit of a debate going on about that one.

What do you think?

Any experimental evidence it is not?