Is it fair to send people to hell for being mistaken?

[SnakeLord]

For you see even Satan and demons believe in God.

So this satan dude does not know god exists? Is that what you're saying?

This is an amazing thing for any writer to say, and if the forty or so men who wrote the Scriptures were wrong in these claims, then they must have been lying, or insane, or both.

Or... just wrong. You know, people can truly believes things that aren't true. It doesn't make them a liar, or insane - just misguided.

Well I'm referring to the choice of belief. If God was sitting in the sky with all His glory it would pretty much be hard to deny His existence.

What possible difference does that make? satan is well aware of gods existence but chose to go against him. Adam and Eve met god personally and yet chose to disobey him.. etc etc and so on.

Your clear bias will prevent you from understanding or acknowledging what I'm going to say, but see - allah wants you to believe in him. If you don't there'll be trouble. Do you believe in allah? Of course not, yet for some unexplicable reason expect us to believe in whatever some other book says.

Belief alone does not save--as Satan and his demons believe.

Again: satan knows.

Yeah but then we go back to the issue of the risen Savior and the credibility of the Bible

What 'credibility' is that then?

They don't have a Savior!

But they do. In both instances is the person not being saved by the very being that threatened them with condemnation in the first place? You end up with the same result: believe in me and you go to heaven, (i.e saved).

For some reason though your god needs to impregnate earth women to do it.. Lol.

Muslims believe in Jesus as the son of Mary, but nothing more.

And with what authority do you think you can just dismiss their beliefs? Why can I not do the same with yours? Remember, we're both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss the muslim god you'll understand why I dismiss yours. -SFR

The Bible, on the other hand, was written by over 40 different inspired authors and these authors were eyewitnesses to these historical events.

A) Who says they were eyewitnesses?

B) How can they be? Did Adam write the first part of genesis? Did Noah write about the flood? Theists contend that Moses wrote about these things and in saying could not have been an eyewitness.

C) It is clearly established that the gospels were not eyewitness accounts, but written after the events would have happened. It's also part of the reason why those accounts disagree with each other in many instances.

It was written over a time span of 1500 years!

If I made an NNT, (new new testament), and based it upon earlier works would you now claim the bible has been written over a timespan of 4000 years? But then we might as well state that it has been written over a much longer period. We know that Noah for example is based upon earlier works that themselves have passed through ages and cultures - Sumerians, Babylonians, Akkadians, jews etc.

And it is interesting to note that Jesus never penned any of these books.

god is illiterate?

percentages do not establish your claims as fact since percentages suggest practically over 95% of the population would identify as theistic

Basically LG would have us believe that all these claimed theists were actually "disgruntled" atheists in disguise set out to make religion look bad.

 

[Ophiolite]

god is illiterate?

Probably just dyslexic. This ties in with those theists who believe he is actually a giant dog. It would also explain the contradictions within the scriptures.

 

[Godless]

thats the point - percentages do not establish your claims as fact since percentages suggest practically over 95% of the population would identify as theistic in some shape or form

No shit! That's why statically theist commit most crimes! duh!!

Atheists and agnostics are in the minority, thus most crimes are committed by that 95% of the population who claim to be theistic of one form or another! Just goes to show, that these theist bastards are not so fuc*ng moral! :shrug:

 

[Photizo]

...Beyond this point much of the same religions obsess themselves with a lot of man created dogma that reflects the cultural habits and nature of the people trying to "interpret" God. Hence the difference between the nature of the God of the OT(very harsh and cruel at times,crazy behaviour) being different from the NT God ( much more toned down)

Incorrect.

With respect to YHWH, the God of both Testaments, notice in both Testaments it is He Who takes the initiative in establishing a relationship with man (not the other way around... This may be observed right here in these fora...God approaches but man withdraws/resists) i.e. by means of an ever expanding Revelation of Himself (crucial for any relationship) culminating in the Incarnation, whereby He provided His final, tangible Revelation (Hebrews 1).

Also, (quite appropriately) reading in the NT book of Hebrews, one discovers an invitation is now extended by YHWH to believers (again, taking the initiative with believers who in this case happen to be Jews familiar with the Law's/OT's requirements) to come boldly to His throne of grace to find help in time of need...Boldly into His Presence? This contrasts sharply with the means of approach laid out for them by Him in the Old Testament...people approached in fear and trembling...why? The trail into the Holy of Holies had not yet been blazed by Christ.

God has not changed...mankind has been changed i.e. our status with God...it is now possible to have direct communion with God--In/through Christ, where one becomes integrated with God Himself in a way that will not be fully understood until the inauguration of the next Age...

When one reveals themself in seeking to establish/initiate a relationship it is an attempt to build trust i.e. becoming vulnerable...He cannot be any more vulnerable before humanity than He's already been (His Passion and Death)...and if one chooses to share in [t]His vulnerablity, one will then share in His Invulnerability.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

JimHR, since you are born again and have the Holy Spirit to help you understand these things, would you please explain the following passage to me?

Deuteronomy 13
6 "If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 "But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 "So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Do you agree with this?

Thanks!

 

[JimHR]

JimHR, since you are born again and have the Holy Spirit to help you understand these things, would you please explain the following passage to me?

Deuteronomy 13
6 "If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. 9 "But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 "So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Do you agree with this?

Thanks!

Hey SetiAlpha6! What's going on?

Well I like what John Wycliffe--Oxford professor who advocated the Bible as the Supreme Authority and is credited with the first complete translation of the Bible into middle English--said:

"It shall greatly help thee to understand scripture if thou mark not only what is spoken or written, but of whom, and to whom, and with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, and with what circumstances, considering what goeth before and what followeth."

So once you can answer me these questions, I will answer your question. I know that I may sound hard-nosed, but I am trying to encourage people to find these answers on their own. Knowledge and truth is out there, but you have to seek it. It is very possible.

I will give you a hint--The God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the Old Testament. The Bible says that He never changes. He is just as merciful in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament. Read Nehemiah 9 for a summary of how God mercifully forgave Israel, again and again, after they repeatedly sinned and turned their back on Him. The Psalms of David often speak of God's mercy, poured out on sinners.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths." Proverbs 3:5-6

 

[nova900]

I will give you a hint--The God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the Old Testament. The Bible says that He never changes. He is just as merciful in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament. Read Nehemiah 9 for a summary of how God mercifully forgave Israel, again and again, after they repeatedly sinned and turned their back on Him. The Psalms of David often speak of God's mercy, poured out on sinners.

This is a contradiction in itself to what christians respond when asked: Why did Jesus tell them "he who has no sin may cast the first stone" when the crowd of people wanted to stone Mary Magdelene. They say he was changing the law of Moses to show mercy.That OT law no longer applies. Wrong! It was not the law of Moses at all..it was the law of Yahweh as related to Moses.
Therefore if the god of the bible is unchanging as it states ,then how could Jesus ,who was god in the flesh make a change to Gods' "unchanging nature"???
BTW, the OT testament God displayed far more acts of violence and cruelty than the mercy that you mention.

 

[Photizo]

Therefore if the god of the bible is unchanging as it states ,then how could Jesus ,who was god in the flesh make a change to Gods' "unchanging nature"???

He didn't make any changes, He was acting consistent with His actions of the past (OT). Do you think every infraction of His Law was punished as He had instructed/commanded Israel or do you think they fudged a little in their compliance... and/yet what Did God do then, annihilate Israel? No...

Consider in Acts 15 it is admitted plainly that the Law was a burden that they nor their fathers "were able to bear"...consider this from Romans:

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith.

This was to show God's righteousness, because in his Divine forbearance He had passed over former sins.

It (Christ's Passion and death) was to show His (God's) righteousness at the present time, so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

That the Law was/is still binding and in effect is shown by Christ's death itself...earlier in Romans, Paul declares the OT Law will be the standard by which the world will be judged (The 'NT God' will use the Law of the OT God to judge both Jews and Gentiles...how unfair is that huh?).

YHWH displays grace towards mankind from Genesis to Revelation...

Consider also this passage from the Book of Acts:

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent, because He has fixed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by a Man Whom He has appointed; and of this He has given assurance to all by raising Him from the dead.

BTW, the OT testament God displayed far more acts of violence and cruelty than the mercy that you mention.

Violence? Yes. Cruelty? No...and if you think the "OT testament God" was violent, take a gander at the New Testament and see what the 'NT testament god' has in store...the "OT testament god" is a piker by comparison. Remember:

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent, because He has fixed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by a Man Whom He has appointed; and of this He has given assurance to all by raising Him from the dead.

Best you obey Him...

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Hey SetiAlpha6! What's going on?

Well I like what John Wycliffe--Oxford professor who advocated the Bible as the Supreme Authority and is credited with the first complete translation of the Bible into middle English--said:

"It shall greatly help thee to understand scripture if thou mark not only what is spoken or written, but of whom, and to whom, and with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, and with what circumstances, considering what goeth before and what followeth."

So once you can answer me these questions, I will answer your question. I know that I may sound hard-nosed, but I am trying to encourage people to find these answers on their own. Knowledge and truth is out there, but you have to seek it. It is very possible.

I will give you a hint--The God of the New Testament is the same as the God of the Old Testament. The Bible says that He never changes. He is just as merciful in the Old Testament as He is in the New Testament. Read Nehemiah 9 for a summary of how God mercifully forgave Israel, again and again, after they repeatedly sinned and turned their back on Him. The Psalms of David often speak of God's mercy, poured out on sinners.

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths." Proverbs 3:5-6

Why are you apparently trying to mislead me into thinking that I might even be capable of understanding the Bible when one must be born again before they can hope to understand it?

You are the one who is supposed to be able to understand it, so you are the one that must explain it to others. I am asking you to do so now, because I cannot.

And so far, I am guessing that you agree with this scripture since you have said nothing to the contrary. Is that correct?

I look forward to your explanation.

By the way, if the following scripture is true, then why did God give us the ability to reason and then tell us not to use it?

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths." Proverbs 3:5-6

According to this verse, I am basically not supposed to rely on reason or on what I think or understand about anything at all. But, again, it seems like you are asking me to do that very thing.

but I am trying to encourage people to find these answers on their own.

 

[Photizo]

Why are you apparently trying to mislead me into thinking that I might even be capable of understanding the Bible when one must be born again before they can hope to understand it? I am asking you to do so now, because I cannot.

You don't feed a fetus steak/solid food. The fetus is fed by its mother in the womb...

 

[Godless]

I really love the nonsensical metaphor bullshit these people try to explain their rhetorical buybull! Hence no wonder so many honest Christians get confused. Trying to be objective and reasonable reading rhetoric and non-serquitus nonsense bullshit is confusing!

 

[Photizo]

"I really love the nonsensical metaphor bullshit these people try to explain their rhetorical buybull! Hence no wonder so many honest Christians get confused. Trying to be objective and reasonable reading rhetoric and non-serquitus nonsense bullshit is confusing!"

 

[SetiAlpha6]

You don't feed a fetus steak/solid food. The fetus is fed by its mother in the womb...

Fine! Now I am a fetus!

Since you guys are enlightened and I am not, why can't you just answer a few simple questions? You are being kind of cruel if you don’t!

Is it possible that you just don't have good answers?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

He didn't make any changes, He was acting consistent with His actions of the past (OT). Do you think every infraction of His Law was punished as He had instructed/commanded Israel or do you think they fudged a little in their compliance... and/yet what Did God do then, annihilate Israel? No...

Some of the people probably still had a conscience that prevented them from obeying the Law when it told them to kill, instead of forgive, their own friends and family and even their own children, over and over again.

Perhaps that is why it could never be obeyed. If you obey the Law you must become an expert at killing others by stoning, because that is exactly what the Law commanded.

There will always be some who refuse to kill another.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

IS IT FAIR FOR THE FARMER.... to compost and destroy the worst of his fruit??

or should he cherish even the rotting fungus covered ones?


IF GOD IS OUR FATHER.... CREATOR... then we are his fruit.

-MT

You must believe in infanticide and euthanasia then? I didn’t think that you were capable of this!

 

[Cyperium]

Suppose a person didn’t believe in god but lived a generally good life, never seriously harms anyone, helps others when he can, and donates some of his money to charity. Could it possibly be fair for god to send this otherwise good person to hell simply for being mistaken about god’s existence? I’ve never really heard a good answer from a christian on this. How could a “just” god punish someone eternally in hell simply because they held a factually incorrect belief? It astounds me that anyone could seriously call it “just” for a person to be condemned to an eternity of suffering simply because they weren’t smart/lucky enough to reach the correct conclusion. If god would do that, it seems that god is an incredibly petty, self-centered being who has no concept of justice.

If you don't know it's wrong, in your heart, then I don't think it's a sin (for you, since it is still bad in God's eyes).

The bible say something like this about this matter (taken from memory, so not word for word, but it is true to the meaning as I see it).

While they were in the dark, they did not know sin, even if they sinned, but when the light came to the world, they knew that they sinned and they were angry at the light. The judgement is that those that live by darkness will hide in the dark and not come to the light, since their actions will be seen. But those that live by light will come to the light, since their actions will be seen.

This is my understanding of this matter, if you don't know it is wrong what you do, then I can't see how you have sinned (allthough it will still be sinful (since God has set rules for us to live by), but I guess it won't matter to your faith), but if you know in your heart that you are sinning, then it is bad for you and is sinful of you. You know how easy it can be to forgive someone that just didn't know better, as easy (I think) is it to forgive a sinner that just didn't know that he sinned, I think that it depends on the intentions that you have also.

Also, if you are in the dark (you don't know that you sin) then you are lost, and should search for the light so that you see how you should live so that your life equals your intentions (at least more or less). If you are in the dark and know that you sin, so that you are hiding, then you are in danger of the judgement. So don't sin so much, and don't get too involved with sin, so that you can find the true meaning of your life and find pleasure in life.

I thought about this some more, and I think that when Jesus came to the world (the light) then everyone got the message somehow. It says in the Bible that the scripture was written in their hearts. So perhaps even if you think you don't know, you still know. Like remembering a dream that was very important and very real and good, but you had failed to consciously remember it, perhaps that is what you should search for, to bring what you have into the light.

 

[Photizo]

Some of the people probably still had a conscience that prevented them from obeying the Law when it told them to kill, instead of forgive, their own friends and family and even their own children, over and over again.

Perhaps that is why it could never be obeyed. If you obey the Law you must become an expert at killing others by stoning, because that is exactly what the Law commanded.

Disobedience of His law is hardly manifesting virtue--and a healthy conscience will assent to His Law agreeing with it/God that it is good, while condemning you for your disobedience...the reason it could never be obeyed is because Man lacks the requistite virtue to do so. There is only One Who posseses such virtue--the very same One kept it perfectly yet laid down His Life for your lack of virtue/compliance/perfection...

There will always be some who refuse to kill another.

You can thank your lucky stars God is not included among the "some".

 

[Photizo]

Is it possible that you just don't have good answers?

No, it's not possible...given your questions are slow/softball pitches...on the other hand, it's quite evident/apparent that your schtick is second rate.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Disobedience of His law is hardly manifesting virtue--and a healthy conscience will assent to His Law agreeing with it/God that it is good, while condemning you for your disobedience...the reason it could never be obeyed is because Man lacks the requistite virtue to do so. There is only One Who posseses such virtue--the very same One kept it perfectly yet laid down His Life for your lack of virtue/compliance/perfection...



You can thank your lucky stars God is not included among the "some".

Is it then a virtue to kill your own child as the Law demands? Would you be able to do this to your own flesh and blood, Photizo?

As the scripture says, you would be called out from the crowd to throw the first stone at your own daughter. Where would you aim your stone, at her face, her breasts, her legs, her stomach? Peer pressure would probably motivate you to make the first blow really count so where would your stone, the first stone, strike her?

You have thought this through before, right? If all this sounds sickening to you, perhaps it is because it really is sickening. In that case I would agree with you! But unfortunately, as it stands now, I think that you would do it. You would probably throw-up afterwards and then proceed to justify your actions in your own mind.

As for me, no thank you!!!! I could never do this wretched thing!!!!

 

[nova900]

Disobedience of His law is hardly manifesting virtue--and a healthy conscience will assent to His Law agreeing with it/God that it is good, while condemning you for your disobedience...the reason it could never be obeyed is because Man lacks the requistite virtue to do so. There is only One Who posseses such virtue--the very same One kept it perfectly yet laid down His Life for your lack of virtue/compliance/perfection...



You can thank your lucky stars God is not included among the "some".

Well, there you have it Seti Alpha. If the biblical God orders you to stick a spear in a pregnant womans' belly or to dash a little ones head against a rock or hey, just kill and slaughter anyone that you are ordered to ...just do it! Ok?
Because you are just going to have to throw your morals out the window and obey!!!!
This whole thing is quite sickening actually, the most sickening part being people who actually believe God could have such a heinous nature.


So photizo, other than just talk down to people in a condescending manner and preach....what else is there?