Is it fair to send people to hell for being mistaken?

Nasor said:
You see, that's the problem. Not everyone who doesn't believe in god is "deliberately lying to oneself". Some people simply analyze the evidence as best they can, and reach the wrong conclusion. Many people honestly don't believe that there is a god, no deliberate lying involved. That's the whole problem...it's a situation where god is punishing people simply for being mistaken, rather than for deliberately doing something wrong. How could that be just? :confused:
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No, "that's" not the problem...your post, and what it contains (deliberate, willful concoctions based on ignorance and unbelief which consequently do not comport with reality/Truth) is the problem. I've told you once and I'll tell you again: deliberately lying to oneself can hardly be classified as an honest mistake.
 
Photizo said:
No, "that's" not the problem...your post, and what it contains (deliberate, willful concoctions based on ignorance and unbelief which consequently do not comport with reality/Truth) is the problem. I've told you once and I'll tell you again: deliberately lying to oneself can hardly be classified as an honest mistake.
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Photizo, are you seriously claiming that it's impossible for a person to simply come to the wrong conclusion about god based on their own examination of the evidence? That every single person who claims to lack a belief in god really secretly does believe in god?

By the way, I'm still curious about why you call yourself the devil...
 
I've told you once and I'll tell you again: deliberately lying to oneself can hardly be classified as an honest mistake.
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How on earth have you managed to come to such a conclusion? Surely you don't honestly believe the crap you've just said?
 
Photizo said:
I will do so, eventually...
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Great!!! I will look forward to it!

You might also want to explain this one, where it says that all people will be judged "according to their deeds". Hmmm...that is exactly what the Romans verse says.

Revelation 20:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Thank You!
 
True LG would be injecting his high school drop out scenario, or claiming that one has to "qualify" to understand theistic claims. Along these non-sense themes of his that he keeps on beating, of circular arguments..
 
Nasor said:
Suppose a person didn’t believe in god but lived a generally good life, never seriously harms anyone, helps others when he can, and donates some of his money to charity. Could it possibly be fair for god to send this otherwise good person to hell simply for being mistaken about god’s existence?
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one does not go to hell for being ignorant of god - one goes to hell for performing activities that a godless life tends to lead to - basically there are three types of karma - vikarma (you go down), karma (you go sideways) akarma (you go up) - since th e human form of life is not meant for animal propensities (eating sleeping mating and defending) but for the cultivation of self realization, it stands that a human would get an animal body in the next life, since animal propensities were all they were occupied to begin with (why bother with the issues of the human form - sparrows don't have to work a night shift), it seems that they would stand to be punished (or rewarded, according to your perspective) by getting an animal form. But the issues of karma are quite difficult to determine - the moment one is outside of scriptural conclusions its easy for a pious person to accidentally perform an impious activity and for an impious person to accidentally perform an impious activity
I’ve never really heard a good answer from a christian on this. How could a “just” god punish someone eternally in hell simply because they held a factually incorrect belief?
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determining hell as an eternal reality became popular with the christians after constantine's reformation (who was famous more as a politician than a religious minded person - although he was concerned with making christianity more 'accessible' to the public) - but historical controversies aside, I would agree that the notion of an eternal hell (never mind what you had to perform to go there) makes many things about spiritual life untenable.

It astounds me that anyone could seriously call it “just” for a person to be condemned to an eternity of suffering simply because they weren’t smart/lucky enough to reach the correct conclusion. If god would do that, it seems that god is an incredibly petty, self-centered being who has no concept of justice.
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there are descriptions in the vedas of hell being a place where time passes extremely slowly - thus a moment in hell feels like an eternity - much like 5 minutes with your hand on a hot plate feels like 5 minutes too long
 
one does not go to hell for being ignorant of god - one goes to hell for performing activities that a godless life tends to lead to
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Now that is definitively a generalization, considering that the majority of people in jail for crimes are confessed theists of one denomination or another! ;) :rolleyes:
 
Godless said:
Now that is definitively a generalization, considering that the majority of people in jail for crimes are confessed theists of one denomination or another! ;) :rolleyes:
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I believe that comes in as number 10

10. "The majority of prisoners/criminals are theists."

This is a bogus argument for two reasons:

(1) Since 90% of the population is theistic, it's not statistically
surprising that the majority of people in any given institution would be
theists.

(2) The relevant surveys, taken within prison walls, are unreliable since
prisoners are known to give answers that they feel will put them in the best
light in the eyes of prison officials in particular and the public in
general. They know it's not going to help their chances for parole if they
claim to reject God, so they say they are theists.
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LOL... Take it as you will facts are facts, one can't deny the evidence. And even though you still generalize all atheists lead an amoral life, or activities!

I've shown otherwise, I've shown you that most professed theist commit crimes, not all wind up in jail you know! How about the theist who cheat on their wives? How about the theist who is a pedophile? OOPS any Catholic saintly person here? LOL....
 
I once asked a very good friend of mine who is extremely Christian, why God would send people to hell if they never knew about him in the first place. Apparently, or for what I have been told by many Christians, as long as you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and died for your sins, then you got a one way ticket to Heaven. Why should someone go to hell if they never had the chance to learn about Jesus Christ or the Christian religion. How would they know any better? How would they know what a sin was? My friends reply was this, "Everyone has a chance to know God." What the hell does that even mean? So it's their fault if they didn't learn about God? It's their fault if they never learned what a "sin" was? Please...it's all bullshit. You live a good life, you treat people how you want to be treated, and you help others, you're bound to end up some where decent after this life. Otherwise you just die and you never know the difference anyway.
 
Nasor said:
Suppose a person didn’t believe in god but lived a generally good life, never seriously harms anyone, helps others when he can, and donates some of his money to charity. Could it possibly be fair for god to send this otherwise good person to hell simply for being mistaken about god’s existence? I’ve never really heard a good answer from a christian on this. How could a “just” god punish someone eternally in hell simply because they held a factually incorrect belief? It astounds me that anyone could seriously call it “just” for a person to be condemned to an eternity of suffering simply because they weren’t smart/lucky enough to reach the correct conclusion. If god would do that, it seems that god is an incredibly petty, self-centered being who has no concept of justice.
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Hey I know I am late answering this so if someone already gave this as an answer I apologize.

Well first of all God doesn't send sinners to hell. Unrepentant sinners choose to go to hell.

To know if you are going to hell, simply judge yourself against the Ten Commandments. Ask yourself--have I ever told a lie? If the answer is yes, you are a liar and have broken a commandment. Have I ever stole something? If yes, you are a thief and have broken that commandment. Have I ever looked at another person with lust? That lust is adultery of the heart in the sight of God. God is so pure, holy and just that if He were to judge you by these commandments (and there are seven more)--would you be found innocent or guilty?

You have a choice to believe in the blood of Jesus on the cross. He paid the debt--He was the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of the world.

We as Christians are the "light of the world" we remind others of these things. We are to "go into all the world and preach the gospel." Matthew 28

We don't go to hell because we fail to hear the Gospel--you just heard it--we go to hell because we fail to choose Him.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
 
jessiej920 said:
I once asked a very good friend of mine who is extremely Christian, why God would send people to hell if they never knew about him in the first place. Apparently, or for what I have been told by many Christians, as long as you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and died for your sins, then you got a one way ticket to Heaven. Why should someone go to hell if they never had the chance to learn about Jesus Christ or the Christian religion. How would they know any better? How would they know what a sin was? My friends reply was this, "Everyone has a chance to know God." What the hell does that even mean? So it's their fault if they didn't learn about God? It's their fault if they never learned what a "sin" was? Please...it's all bullshit. You live a good life, you treat people how you want to be treated, and you help others, you're bound to end up some where decent after this life. Otherwise you just die and you never know the difference anyway.
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Hey jessiej920!! How's it going?

I just wanted to attempt to answer your questions. (Please read my previous post first--its on the same topic.)

Well like I mentioned we do not go to hell because we fail to hear the Gospel. I mean you have a conscience, creation, the Bible, and millions of Christians around the world telling you what's up. God wants us to love Him like a son loves his father. A father cannot force his child to love Him. We must choose to love Him.

If he were to reveal all His glory in a science lab--what would He be? If He could be discovered, wouldn't that kinda of be forcing us to believe in Him, then what good would His creation be if we had no free choice?

I know that you are seeking truth as you have asked your friend those questions. That's only natural--we all have a spirit for God. "The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." Matt. 26:41

I don't want to make this post to long--but I just wanted to say that I strongly encourage you to believe the Biblical account of salvation as there is no other way.

"Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." John 14:5-7
 
***I know this is little long--please bear with me.***

I have concluded that there are really only three basic authorities people rely on for the destination of their soul.

1) One is you can believe in your own authority. "I can decide what happens to me--be it nothing or something." But in all reality, Do you know what will happen to you in a future week, month, year? How could you possible know what will happen after you die?

2) Another is religion--People will devise rituals and attempt to earn their way to heaven. (You even see new religions developing-Sceintology, cults, etc.) And the Bible clearly teaches people will do this in an attempt to seek God. It is interesting to note that the Muslim religion and Judaism (two of the most prominent religions) both recognize Abraham as a key figure (as does Christianity). The difference is that Muslims believe Abraham was going to sacrifice Ishmael, not Isaac. Jews and Christians believe Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac, not Ishmael. Judaism differs from Christianity in that they don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

3) Or lastly you believe the authority of the Bible. It is an amazing Book. It was written by 40 men inspired by God. (It wasn't written by one guy such as Muhammad proclaiming to be God. Jesus's name is not penned on any of the books.) The Bible contains historical accounts written by eyewitnesses of the events described. From the account of Moses to the account of John. These men were from all different walks of life and most never met each other. Some were kings like Solomon, some were shepherds like David, some where physicians like Luke. These men spoke different languages, lived on different continents, and it was written over a period of 1500 years. And yet these Books have perfect agreement. And these things just scratch the surface of the credibility of the Bible.

The Bible. Its the Book of Life. What are you going to live your life according to?

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13
 
JimHR said:
I know I wrote a lot in the last few posts--hope it wasn't overwhelming.
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*************
M*W: Jim, I respect your beliefs, but have you ever given any thought to the mystery of Jesus? I was a christian once. I gave a lot of thought to christianity. I was a hard core christian, in fact. I am grateful that I believed as I did, for that led me to where I am now. Can you conceive life without the control of a sentinent being? I hope you are intelligent enough to do so. At one time, I gave my life to a person called 'Jesus.' He didn't really exist, but I found that out later. I raised my children by his teachings, and today they are still confused. I realized after all of my coercing that he didn't exist, and that I had lied to my children. I will regret that til the day I die. Are you really that sure that you believe in a mythological character? That was the worst mistake of my life. I believed in Jesus, but he didn't exist. I'm still trying to live that one down. It hurts me everyday that I lied to my children. I taught them right from wrong, but I lied to them about their salvation! I ended up being a damaging parent, all in the name of the lord! Had I known the truth at the time, I would have saved my children from the agony they are going through right now!

I see much contradiction in the bible. I see much animosity in the believers. When I read messages like you post, it actually makes me cry. You believe what you believe, but in the end it is not real. Have you ever wanted or had an inkling to totally give up your belief? I know it must be hard, but if you sincerely want to believe the truth, you would have to give up christianity! I know it would be a difficult thing to do, but you would be wiser in the long run. Christianity is evil. It breaks my heart to see a man like you believe in something so vile.

I would ask you to think about your beliefs. Search your soul. Is there any part of christianity that you could prove to be true? This is the argument that we go over so many times on sciforums.

I feel so relieved that I know the truth! I came to sciforums a believer, and I found out the hard way that Jesus didn't exist. I implore you to look at what I'm telling you. I hope you will wake up someday and see that christianity is a lie. Yes, I thought it was real and true when I came here. I wanted so much to believe, but I found out the truth. I hope you do too.

I'm so glad you came to sciforums! You made the perfect choice! We can show you the error of your religion. We can show you how you are not saved! You have made the wisest choice of your life! Don't be afraid, Jim. You are on the right track. We will help you to see the light... literally... the light!
 
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