Is Hell for Real?

[Woody]

Snakelord,

I odviously have you confused with someone else. I thought you said you came from a christian background originally and then left christianity. I got the same vibe from you that I got from medicine woman. I never could get a read on her until I figured out she was a compulsive liar.

 

[mis-t-highs]

you've hardly spoken to her and you make that assumption, take a long lingering look at yourself before you condemn others.
in the urban dictionary, woody is defined as an erect penis, well that suits.
and strangely, a porn freak, seems to fit to.
you are such a good xian, the devil wants you for his deciple.

 

[SnakeLord]

I odviously have you confused with someone else.

Oh I don't think so. I just think after years of mental abuse you've gained this extraordinary ability to make baseless assumptions about anyone who disagrees with you.

I thought you said you came from a christian background originally and then left christianity.

Well, I've never been a christian. Nor any other religion for that matter.

I got the same vibe from you that I got from medicine woman.

A minute ago it was something you thought I said, before that it was that you're confusing me with someone else, and now it's a "vibe" you got. Make up your mind please.

You really need to sort yourself out and learn how to focus thoughts.

I never could get a read on her until I figured out she was a compulsive liar.

She might be a compulsive liar, I couldn't really say, but at least she has the courage and self respect to answer questions posed at her, to not change forum nicks when things get a little too hot, and to be honest to herself. You have done nothing but fart your way through this entire thread, and it really does smell.

Still, this all has some value. After all, a couple of posts ago you couldn't manage to say my nickname, and look at you now. You're like a new person.

 

[Woody]

Snakelord, et al

I'm sure we all have better things to do with our lives than this.

I like playing my guitar a lot better than being here. I sure feel a lot better with music.

I'll have to remember among all the fire, there may have been some friendly fire (fat chance). Whatta experience witnessing to athiests about God.

By the way, I do believe in leprechauns --there's was one working down at the car parts store -- dogone if he didn't sound like one, irish accent and all.

I'll make everyone happy by checking outta here.

Cheers

 

[blackmonkeystatue]

I haven't read this thread and don't really plan to, but I remember seeing a documentary on hell not too long ago. Hell has been mostly shaped by poets and authors (i.e. Dante's inferno). If you look at the evolution of hell, it is more of a figment of the imagination than anything. It isn't mentioned in the bible to the extent that people generally believe. But then again, people don’t generally read the whole bible. My understanding is that it was developed as a tool to keep people in line, something quasi-real for them to fear. It's a wonderful way to control people. It sure as hell (pun intended) worked on me in those 13 years of Catholic school. But you know, then I discovered sex, drugs, and rock and roll. That's where it's at.

 

[Athelwulf]

I limited my statement to athiests who deny the existence of a God. Denial is a form of hatred. If you hate someone you can deny that they even exist. In your heart that person is dead. I know of a family relationship between two family members that got so bad they didn't speak to each other for more than 20 years. One of them said to me, that as far as he was concerned the other one was dead. That is what I mean by hatred.

Well, I can tell that ya've given at least some thought on yer hypothesis. However, there are still some kinks to work out.

First of all, let's look at Dictionary.com's definition of "deny":

de·ny

1. To declare untrue; contradict.
2. To refuse to believe; reject.
3. To refuse to recognize or acknowledge; disavow.
4.

a. To decline to grant or allow; refuse: deny the student's request; denied the prisoner food or water.
b. To give a refusal to; turn down or away: The protesters were determined not to be denied.
c. To restrain (oneself) especially from indulgence in pleasures.​

Synonyms: deny, contradict, contravene, disaffirm, gainsay, negate, traverse
These verbs mean to refuse to admit the existence, truth, or value of: denied the rumor; contradicted the statement; contravene a conclusion; disaffirm a suggestion; trying to gainsay the evidence; negated the allegations; traverse an indictment.

I can agree with you with yer usage of the word "deny" to describe my feelings, but only in a denotational sense. "Deny" connotes a refusal to admit the existence, truth, or value of something. To me, God does not exist, is not the truth, and has no greater value than that of any other mythological figure. Yes, I deny God in the denotational sense, but I do not deny Him in the connotational sense.

In addition, although it is true that one can deny (in the connotational sense) the existence of someone or something he or she hates, that doesn't necessarily mean that one hates anyone or anything he or she denies the existence of.

I assume that you deny (in the denotational sense) the existence of the tooth fairy. But does that mean that ya hate her? After all, who could hate her? She's tiny and she has tiny wings and oh isn't that precious? And if ya lose one of yer teeth and put it under yer pillow, she comes late at night and takes yer tooth, then puts money in its place and oh isn't that loverly?

I don't hate the tooth fairy, but I do deny her existence (in the denotational sense).

What sayest thou to that? I suppose not much, since ya seem to have left. Well, it was fun arguing with ya while it lasted. And I do hope ya come back.

 

[SnakeLord]

I like playing my guitar a lot better than being here. I sure feel a lot better with music.

Of course, guitars don't ask questions you can't answer.

Whatta experience witnessing to athiests about God.

Hmm... What exactly have you "witnessed"?

I'll make everyone happy by checking outta here

Good luck with life.

 

[Woody]

Athelwulf,

I won't argue with English definitions, which you have correctly stated.

In a sense there was a "tooth fairy" that put money under my pillow -- my Dad, it was just a misdirected belief by me based on a physical result.

There was a "santa claus" that brought me gifts -- my parents, again it was a misdirected belief based on a physical result.

I don't hate any mythological being, except when it is used in place of a God.

If someone denies Jesus existed they probably hate the idea that someone like a biblical Jesus existed, but some go further and refuse to believe that a man named Jesus ever existed at all. It looks like they just don't want to believe this, though historical accounts support this as a fact. None of us was there on March 28, AD 31 to see a man named Jesus die on a cross:

http://bobsstudies.tripod.com/3days3nights/id2.html

Why don't you say something like: Jesus probably existed, but if he did exist I believe he was just a man like anyone else, and all the bible accounts by real people that saw Jesus, were just their own personal interpretation of it? To me, that is a reasonable statement.

The Jews and Muslims admit that Jesus existed though they think he was just a man.

I would suggest you take a look at Josh McDowell's book, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." Josh McDowell set out to disprove the existence of Jesus for his doctoral dissertation. I have read the book. Josh was an athiest, and he had an athiest's bias on the subject. He later became a christian in light of the evidence.

Don't take someone else's disparaging comments as "truth" about Josh McDowell. You can read the book for yourself if you wish, or you can look at the evidence as evaluated through an athiest's perspective:

Athiest's Evaluation of Josh McDowel's Evidence

Athiests that look at the evidence, recognize a man name Jesus went to the cross, but they do not recognize him as a "God" or anything "supernatural."

I would, at some later time, be glad to discuss. But I am in no mood to argue anymore.

Snakelord, I'm not ignoring you. I just think it is a good time for everyone to cool off.

Take care, and bless ya.

ps don't be in no rush to reply!

 

[SkinWalker]

In a sense there was a "tooth fairy" that put money under my pillow -- my Dad, it was just a misdirected belief based on physical a result.

There was a "santa claus" that brought me gifts -- my parents, again it was a misdirected belief based on a physical result.

I don't hate any mythological being, except when it is used in place of a god.

There was a "god" - defined by H. sapiens, perpetuated by society and culture, instilled by parents/family/society in general. Much in the same manner that the reality of poison oracles and witchcraft are instilled among the Azande in West Africa.

The reason I say someone that denies Jesus must hate Jesus, is because they refuse to believe that a man named Jesus ever existed. It looks like they just don't want to believe this, though historical accounts support this as a fact.

Denying the existance of a mythical/legendary being in no way implies hatred, regardless of how you spin it. I doubt the existance of Jesus, but I actually admire and look up to the myth of the man. The myth/legend of Jesus is a valuable role model in society, much in the same way Superman and Matt Dillan are. Each teaches about truth, justice, honor, integrity, etc. Neither has to be factual to do this.

That Jesus was a historical figure is not well documented and all documentation of his existance comes well after his alleged death. Read Iasion's (Quentin David Jones') post here for more information.

I would, at some later time, be glad to discuss. But I am in no mood to argue anymore.

Alas, the eventual end of all threads that involve factual basis for religion or religious superstitions: "I'm tired of arguing/arguing is pointless" when the believer cannot continue to fully answer criticisms.

 

[Woody]

Skinwalker,

I won't sit here and argue with you about archaeology, chronology, historical accounts, and the bible itself which is a documentary.

I do hate anything that leads a person to the Hell I believe exists. Isn't that a benevolent concern on my behalf, to hate something that destroys somebody?

 

[SkinWalker]

The "bible" is no more a documentary than Mob Dick or Huck Finn.

 

[Athelwulf]

I don't hate any mythological being, except when it is used in place of a God.

You claim that we Atheists hate God. Now you just said that you hate any mythological being that is thought of as a god.

How can ya hate it if ya don't believe in it?

If someone denies Jesus existed they probably hate the idea that someone like a biblical Jesus existed, . . .

If someone denies Woden existed they probably hate the idea that someone like an Anglo-Saxon Woden existed.

. . . but some go further and refuse to believe that a man named Jesus ever existed at all. It looks like they just don't want to believe this, though historical accounts support this as a fact.

Ya mean the historical accounts in the Bible?

None of us was there on March 28, AD 31 to see a man named Jesus die on a cross:

Which proves that ya have no base for yer belief. If ya weren't there on March 28<Sup>th</Sup>, 31, then how can ya know for sure that Jesus even existed, much less was the son of some mythological being such as God?

Why don't you say something like: Jesus probably existed, but if he did exist I believe he was just a man like anyone else, and all the bible accounts by real people that saw Jesus, were just their own personal interpretation of it? To me, that is a reasonable statement.

And one I've made before.

I do hate anything that leads a person to the Hell I believe exists.

How can ya hate what doesn't exist?

 

[Woody]

Athelwulf, et al

Could you please look at the thread in my last post? A lot of people that don't believe in Jesus as a savior will at least admit he existed as a man, and this includes athiests. I don't see why that is so hard to accept. Your fellow nonbelievers will admit that much in the light of the evidence provided. here is the link once again from an athiest group:

Athiests Discuss Evidence Provided about Jesus

Here is a quote from one of them:

In the fifth chapter of ETDAV entitled, "Jesus--A Man of History," Josh McDowell lists a series of "sources for the historicity of Jesus." According to the table of contents of ETDAV, this chapter lists "documented sources of the historical person of Jesus of Nazareth apart from the Bible." In this chapter I shall consider each of McDowell's sources. Although I agree with McDowell that there was a historical Jesus, I shall argue that most of McDowell's sources do not provide independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus.

How can ya hate what doesn't exist?

I hate anything that is a lie. A lie is something that (in reality) doesn't exist. Instead it was fabricated by someone to deceive them, and make them do something they wouldn't do otherwise.

I see no harm in fairy tales, etc. because anyone knows that they are just that. When someone starts stating them as a fact, I have a problem with it because that is a lie.

Skinwalker,

the books you mentioned, Moby Dick, and Huck Finn were each written by one author -- nobody would debate that point.

The bible on the otherhand has many authors:
disciples Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Peter, and James (the biological half brother of Jesus) -- not only Jesus but the authors themselves, were they nonexistent as well? How about King Herod, Pontious Pilate, Cephas the High Priest of the Synagogue, and many other names mentioned in the account of Jesus, do you think they were nonexistent, because there is external historical information that links to them. And how about the cities that the apostles went to, like Corinth, that no longer exists. It has been excavated. The details provided in the bible concerning the period of time when Jesus existed should provide a lot of information that someone could look at with a magnifying glass.

Once again I point to the book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." There is plenty of evidence to look at. I recommend that you do, so we can talk without an argument.

Try to be reasonable, there wasn't an internet, or computers 2 thousand years ago. How would you establish historical information with no more technology than scrolls? Isn't a codified, sworn, eyewitness account of several people that agree with each other, isn't that sufficient historical evidence that someone existed?

 

[SkinWalker]

Which of the biblical authors was alive at the same time as Jesus? Matthew, Mark, Luke, et al were not written by disciples.

The "many authors" of the bible offers no credibility to its veracity. If anything, it speaks about its unreliability.

The religious texts of the christian cult are wonderful works of literature... but that's all they are.

Try to be reasonable, there wasn't an internet, or computers 2 thousand years ago. How would you establish historical information with no more technology than scrolls? Isn't a codified, sworn, eyewitness account of several people that agree with each other, isn't that sufficient historical evidence that someone existed?

Who would these "eyewitnesses" be? None of the biblical texts were written at the time of Jesus. We have historical accounts of many figures from far earlier than Jesus was alleged to live. Hammurabi, Ashurbanipal, Amen-hotep II, Shalmaneser III, Nebuchadnezzar, and even a Greek named Tataie, who scratched his name on a lekythos (a cup) between 675-650 BCE.

For a "king," Jesus sure didn't create much stir in the epigraphical or archaeological record.

Later, when early christians were apparently in the fabrication stage of creating the myth of Jesus, someon wrote something quite profound.

"The men who fabricated this geneaology [of Jesus] were insistent on on the point that Jesus was descended from the first man and from the king of the Jews [David]. The poor carpenter's wife seems not to have known she had such a distinguished bunch of ancestors."

You can find that quote here: http://members.aol.com/PS418/celsus.html

Celsus was a Greek critic of the christian cult and accused them of taking Greek myths and creating their own from them. He was so critical that the early christians were unable to properly refute him and all of his writings were collected an burned (xians are good at burning books throughout history... the Mayan libraries come immediately to mind). The only writings left are the many direct quotes that xians like Origen used in attempts to refute him.

 

[Woody]

OK Skinwalker I get the Gist,

So you think the gospels of the bible were all forgeries. Could you produce the names of the sinister men that fabricated all the eyewitness accounts?

As one of the pharisees (a nonbeliever) put it: if Jesus is a false messiah then his work will be forgotten like all the other false messiahs that came before him. Somebody on this forum produced the names of about 25 "other messiahs" that have come and gone. I didn't even know they existed, and nobody hears much about them today in modern theology. Jesus stood the test of time -- and that event speaks for itself.

Christianity was not a religion that budded hundreds of years after AD 31. There is ample evidence that christians were being executed by Rome not long after 31 AD.

The only thing I can ask is look at the evidence for yourself. Some of your fellow athiests say in light of the evidence that a man named "Jesus" died on a cross, but he was not God, because God doesn't exist. Before you say anything else, tell me if they are being inconsistent.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Woody: So you think the gospels of the bible were all forgeries.
Could you produce the names of the sinister men that fabricated all the eyewitness accounts?
*************
M*W: Forgeries, you betcha! There is only one man to name -- Saul/Paul of Tarsus.
*************
Woody: As one of the pharisees (a nonbeliever) put it: if Jesus is a false messiah then his work will be forgotten like all the other false messiahs that came before him. Somebody on this forum produced the names of about 25 "other messiahs" that have come and gone. I didn't even know they existed, and nobody hears much about them today in modern theology. Jesus stood the test of time -- and that event speaks for itself.
*************
M*W: Of course you didn't know they existed!!! Your church doesn't divulge facts like this!!! Jesus stood the test of time??? So has Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy.
*************
Woody: Christianity was not a religion that budded hundreds of years after AD 31. There is ample evidence that christians were being executed by Rome not long after 31 AD.
*************
M*W: Thanks to Paul.
*************
Woody: The only thing I can ask is look at the evidence for yourself. Some of your fellow athiests say in light of the evidence that a man named "Jesus" died on a cross, but he was not God, because God doesn't exist. Before you say anything else, tell me if they are being inconsistent.
*************
M*W: A man named "Bar Abbas" was on the cross in Jesus's stead. You do the translation.

 

[Woody]

Woody:

The only thing I can ask is look at the evidence for yourself. Some of your fellow athiests say in light of the evidence that a man named "Jesus" died on a cross, but he was not God, because God doesn't exist. Before you say anything else, tell me if they are being inconsistent.

So, once again, are your athiest brethren being inconsistent?

In the first century Christians were called athiests:

Here is Justin Martyr's letter to the Roman authorities, concerning Christians and their brutal persecution. In those days, being a Christian cost you your life.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-firstapology.html

And why would Paul create a hoax that cost him his life? All he had to do is recant, and he would be allowed to live. What was the point of dieing for a lie? He was beheaded like most of the other Christians in his day. All of the disciples were executed except John.

What is the point in all of this if it is a lie? Who wants to die for a lie?

 

[SkinWalker]

Why did Koresh hold out in his compound in Waco?
Why did Jim Jones drink the very Kool-Aid™ he ********?
Why did Marshal Applewhite give his own life along with those of his "parishoners" in his quest to join with the ETI mothership hiding behind Haley's Comet?
Why do suicide bombers detonate vests of explosives in public places?

The obvious answer: they were as deranged as Saul apparently was. All lunatics are martyrs to someone.

 

[SnakeLord]

if Jesus is a false messiah then his work will be forgotten like all the other false messiahs that came before him. Somebody on this forum produced the names of about 25 "other messiahs" that have come and gone. I didn't even know they existed, and nobody hears much about them today in modern theology. Jesus stood the test of time -- and that event speaks for itself.

This doesn't stand up under scrutiny. If you look up into the night sky with a telescope, you will see planets named after gods, if you look in an English kitchen you'll see a 'hob', named after an old goblin.. Wherever you go in the world you'll see signs of god beings from ancient times that have survived without question to this day. Every christmas when you put up a christmas tree, you are paying homage to Odin. What, all this time you thought christmas trees were a custom started out in the middle east?

Survival of a belief or mythology doesn't imply it's real.

There is ample evidence that christians were being executed by Rome not long after 31 AD.

Such as?

The only thing I can ask is look at the evidence for yourself.

What evidence?

 

[Gambit Star]

Hell can only be a place you create for yourself or somebody else.

If you are true to your surroundings and find morals in understanding others ( including nature )then hell is just a word.

Satan just reminds me of simpsons halloween episode were homer was being persuaded by the big Lard Lad doughnut boy, all he had to do was " just dont look" !