Is Hell for Real?

[Woody]

Skinwalker,

Why did Koresh hold out in his compound in Waco?
Why did Jim Jones drink the very Kool-Aid™ he ********?
Why did Marshal Applewhite give his own life along with those of his "parishoners" in his quest to join with the ETI mothership hiding behind Haley's Comet?
Why do suicide bombers detonate vests of explosives in public places?

The obvious answer: they were as deranged as Saul apparently was. All lunatics are martyrs to someone.

Skinwalker, we can systematically look at the lives of each of these evil men you mentioned with total disgust and contempt (with the exception of Saul), and you know it. Koresh and Jones were both child molesters. I never heard of Marshal Applewhite, but I can say they have all failed the time test, and they no longer have any followers we know about. The families of the suicide bombers are paid a good compensation by the ruthless men that control the arab oil wealth. Suicide bombers don't have to believe in God to die for their families (though their religion gets involved in many cases). The bible calls the likes of Koresh, Jones, and Applewhite "false messiahs." Their way (including suicide bombers) leads to death and destruction, but Christ's way leads to life.

Now we can also look at the lives of Christians to see what evil they have done. What did Christians do wrong in the early days when they were accused of being athiests? They were just trying to live in peace with their fellow man, and their only crime was trying to be reasonable with the Roman government regarding their faith (read Justin Martyr's writings) -- for which they were systematically exterminated by those in power.

It is odvious you aren't looking at any of the evidence I have provided. Neither has anyone else. This discussion is getting pointless.

The same goes for the rest of the responders -- nobody wants to look at the evidence provided.

What evidence they say? I have provided plenty, has anyone read it?

I, once again, go back to two questions that nobody answers:

1) Your athiest brethren have read the evidence provided by Josh McDowell concerning the existence of a man called Jesus. Are your athiest brethren being inconsistent when they say they believe Jesus was a real man that died on a cross in Jerusalem?

2) Could you produce the names of the sinister men that fabricated all the eyewitness accounts of Jesus? One of the ten commandments is "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Hence a liar is evil.

If you can not provide a reasonable explaination, or at least agree on some of the points made by the external sources, then there really is no point in a discussion.

 

[Silas]

1) Your athiest brethren have read the evidence provided by Josh McDowell concerning the existence of a man called Jesus. Are your athiest brethren being inconsistent when they say they believe Jesus was a real man that died on a cross in Jerusalem?

2) Could you produce the names of the sinister men that fabricated all the eyewitness accounts of Jesus? One of the ten commandments is "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Hence a liar is evil.

I never got around to finishing the page where the atheists answered Josh McDowell - I must have missed the part where they justified him because it sounded like they were doing the opposite to me.

However, speaking for myself just based upon my own reasoning, I myself believe that Jesus was a real man and it's probable that he was hung on a cross. I don't believe that the entire Christian movement was based upon a fictional person.

I am an atheist, I don't see that as an inconsistent position. Jesus was a man, after all, who lived and died. That much is true enough of everybody. Crucifixion was not restricted to Jesus only, so he wasn't special in that respect.

I don't believe in the overtly miraculous parts of the tale, that's all. That's what enables me to deny the divinity of a wise person I think probably existed. He was not begotten of the Holy Spirit, he was not born of a virgin, he did not bring a dead man back to life, he did not himself Resurrect. I believe that the common story in the Gospels that he apparently died within the same day is possibly evidence that he really was crucified, that he was taken down before his physical death and that he recovered.

Are you getting rescued? Loads of people get rescued!
Life of Brian​

.

 

[Woody]

Congrats Silas,

At least you and I have some common ground to discuss. You have the right to choose what to believe about a man called Jesus. In your opinion he was just a man, and no more. I can respect that.

What do you think about Christians being persecuted as atheists by the Roman government, as stated in Justin Martyr's appeal to the Roman senate? Isn't it curious that Christians were regarded as athiests though they believed in God?

One other curious observation I have about Justin Martyr: I see no differences between his doctrine from 1900 years ago and what I personally believe as a Christian. It sounds just like commentaries I read from modern bible scholars over the same issues we discuss today -- life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for all, and tolerance for others that don't think the way we think. I do have differences of opinion with some of the other church denominations in our present day, but not with what I have read from Justin Martyr.

 

[spidergoat]

What do you think about Christians being persecuted as atheists by the Roman government, as stated in Justin Martyr's appeal to the Roman senate?

It was unfortunate, but the authority of Rome was considered to have a devine origin, therefore Christianity was percieved as a threat, like terrorists and rebellious Jews.

Isn't it curious that Christians were regarded as athiests though they believed in God?

Not really. OK, maybe a little bit. You see, the Romans believed in more Gods, therefore Christians are more atheist than Pagans.

1) Your athiest brethren have read the evidence provided by Josh McDowell concerning the existence of a man called Jesus. Are your athiest brethren being inconsistent when they say they believe Jesus was a real man that died on a cross in Jerusalem?

No.

2) Could you produce the names of the sinister men that fabricated all the eyewitness accounts of Jesus? One of the ten commandments is "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Hence a liar is evil.

No. But they were probably former pagans writing a century after the fact. Not even all the disciples really understood Jesus (I'm not talking about Judas).

And people that believe their own lies are not decieving, they are delusional.

 

[Woody]

SpiderGoat Said,

No. But they were probably former pagans writing a century after the fact. Not even all the disciples really understood Jesus (I'm not talking about Judas).

So you are saying the men that wrote the new testament bore false witness about Jesus and broke the ten commandments in the old testament which say "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Then they went on and believed their own false witness knowing full well it was a lie, misleading thousands of innocent, benevolent people like Justin Martyr to a cruel death, making themselves the most evil men one earth. Show me what was wrong with the lives they lived to proove your statement.

Child molesters like Jim Jones, David Koresh, Mohammed (having sex with a 9 year old girl and taking her as a wife when he was more than 50 years old), and even Joseph Smith (approving of polygamy which is a perversion of marriage) prove their own religion was a hypocrisy from the very beginning, living grotesque, immoral lives --polygamists, biggamists, sex perverts, liars.

Show me where the fraudulent "forgers" of the bible lived immoral lives. Even greater -- show me where Jesus lived an immoral life.

 

[duendy]

Show me where the fraudulent "forgers" of the bible lived immoral lives. Even greater -- show me where Jesus lived an immoral life.

Show me evidence that a character called Jesus actually LIVED! all you have are words in a book

 

[Yorda]

Show me evidence that a character called Jesus actually LIVED! all you have are words in a book

How do you think it's possible to show evidence of that? Can you even show evidence of your own existence?

 

[duendy]

How do you think it's possible to show evidence of that?

d__emmm, let me see. oh i know! by presenting solid evidence a man called Jesus ACTUALLY lived. does that help?

Can you even show evidence of your own existence?

you must be a comedian Yorda. please say you arrreeeeeee..?
if i was there and you asked me that i'd pinch your nose so you would know for sure. till that time you'll simply have to take my words for it

 

[Yorda]

d__emmm, let me see. oh i know! by presenting solid evidence a man called Jesus ACTUALLY lived. does that help?

Solid evidence? No, that doesn't help much. What is that solid evidence you want?
There's already a book at least which says that Jesus lived, but maybe the Bible isn't solid enough.

Hehe... just take my word that Jesus existed, Ok?

 

[SkinWalker]

Neither your word nor the collected anthology of judeo-christian mythology are considered to be evidence of an extraordinary claim. Its called circular evidence: "the book says Jesus lived; Jesus lived because the book says he did."

 

[Avatar]

Hell exists only in the minds of christians

 

[duendy]

Solid evidence? No, that doesn't help much. What is that solid evidence you want?

d__solid evidence....this is Jesus' bed. this is where he went to semester. stuff like that. none exists. it was Allegro that first told me this, you know the author who wrote The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross...? hint hint

There's already a book at least which says that Jesus lived, but maybe the Bible isn't solid enough.

d__ oh yeH, i am sure you'd feel it if i hit you on the head with it (another proof of my existence), bt as i said, it is JUSt wordswordswrdsetc. you dont know Jesus REALLY existed from words in a book

Hehe... just take my word that Jesus existed, Ok?

so, you want me to have 'faith' huh? like you? no. i am too much of an explorer. i want to find out

 

[spidergoat]

SpiderGoat Said,
So you are saying the men that wrote the new testament bore false witness about Jesus and broke the ten commandments in the old testament which say "Thou shalt not bear false witness." Then they went on and believed their own false witness knowing full well it was a lie, misleading thousands of innocent, benevolent people like Justin Martyr to a cruel death, making themselves the most evil men one earth. Show me what was wrong with the lives they lived to proove your statement.

The men that wrote the new testament chose certain stories out of many to include in their work. No one alive at the time of it's compilation was a direct witness, so all the accounts were secondhand. These accounts were distorted due to the nature of their oral transmission. They were also further distorted to reflect the values and ideals of the compilers, those early bishops of the church. They didn't lie, they just emphasized certain things, embellished here and there, basically customized the religion to suit them, like many Christian sects do today. Plus, they cancelled some early requirements, like circumcision, to make the religion more palatable for the masses. I think their Pagan roots are reflected in the subtle distortion of Jesus' teachings, and I think they believed they were righteous.

I think, woody, that you are in denial of the fact that, at the time of it's writing, there were already a diversity of ideas out there about what the true teachings of Jesus were- you might say it amounted to a spiritual crisis. These sects often allied themselves with a certain disciple. In Christianity's unification under the Romans, much of this diversity was lost, but some texts have been rediscovered (although the Church considers these to be heretical). Like in war, the victors get to write the history books.

 

[Woody]

SpiderGoat said,

They didn't lie, they just emphasized certain things, embellished here and there, basically customized the religion to suit them, like many Christian sects do today. Plus, they cancelled some early requirements, like circumcision, to make the religion more palatable for the masses. I think their Pagan roots are reflected in the subtle distortion of Jesus' teachings, and I think they believed they were righteous.

So in other words, they twisted and turned until they got what they wanted -- that's what we Christians call a "lie." And you don't call it a lie? The old testament says "Thou shalt not Bear False Witness." Therefore, they damned themselves, and they should have removed the old testament while they were spinning their "new religion."

The Hebrew old testament was here centuries before any of the pagan myths. The disciple Peter addressed this subject well in the book of Hebrews.

Jesus, himself, with his teachings said on many occasions " As it is written in the books of the prophets" and he could show you where to find it in the old testament -- not in some pagan, mythological greek source that came centuries later.

The new testament dovetails perfectly with the old testament, not with a pagan theology. Pagan theologies involve sexual rituals, human sacrifice, witchcraft, necromancy, orgies, and the occult just to name a few. This is modern day satanism -- which I assure you Christians do not practice. I don't know where you are digging this disgusting stuff from, Spidergoat, who is feeding you this crap?

The roots of the New Testament are firmly embedded in the Old Testament. Christians see no difference between them, they are doctrinally the same.

Justin Martyr addressed the subject you are trying to broach here and he did it 1900 years ago. He sounds remarkably the same as what I hear today in church, the Christian doctrine has not been convoluted as you suppose. The good news is still the same for anyone that wants to hear it - yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 

[Woody]

ithopal:

"Show me where the fraudulent "forgers" of the bible lived immoral lives. Even greater -- show me where Jesus lived an immoral life."

How can mythology live a false life?

ok, ithopal, did somebody write the bible? Who? Did it just appear on its own? Does a bible exist, or will you deny that a bible exists too? I'll answer your question for you: I have a bible, and I didn't write it.

 

[SkinWalker]

The Hebrew old testament was here centuries before any of the pagan myths. The disciple Peter addressed this subject well in the book of Hebrews.

Perhaps that's why the Noachian flood myth is a literary improvisation of the Gilgamesh epic, a far older account of a flood myth. The differences are many between Gilgamesh and the Genesis accounts, but there are some passages that are almost word-for-word! The jewish authors of Genesis removed the polytheistic lines and added a bunch of hebrew superstition, but the core of the tales are identical.

Only the Sumerians gave no indication that they viewed Gilgamesh as anything more than great literature and revered it as a hero's tale.

I could give you many, many more examples of plagerism by the jewish authors of other Near Eastern stories and myths if you're interested.

 

[Yorda]

d__solid evidence....this is Jesus' bed. this is where he went to semester. stuff like that. none exists.

only the important things are written down about Jesus, his bed and physical things like that are not important, but the teachings that he told are important

you dont know Jesus REALLY existed from words in a book

how do I know it then?

so, you want me to have 'faith' huh? like you? no. i am too much of an explorer. i want to find out

and yet you want me to have 'faith' that if I put the bible on your head you will feel it! what you say are just wordswordswrdsetc.....

 

[SkinWalker]

how do I know it then?

You don't. You believe. In the same way that the Fang people believe that some are born with an internal organ called an evur, which can be used in witchcraft to affect or even kill other people. The Azande call it mangu. They "know" it to exist, because they've been told by their parents and their parents' parents of its existance.

You cannot convince a Zande or Fang tribesman that witchcraft does not exist, to them it is as real as WiFi connections at the local StarBucks... they might not be able to see it, but they "know" it is there.

Just as you "know" your bible is true.

 

[Woody]

OK Skinwalker,

Here is a summary of the "mighty" gilgamesh.

Introducing Gilgamesh of Uruk, the greatest king on earth, two-thirds god and one-third human, the strongest super-human who ever existed. But his people complain that he is too harsh, so the sky-god Anu creates the wild-man Enkidu. Enkidu is tamed by the harlot Shamhat.
Enkidu fights Gilgamesh. After a mighty battle, Gilgamesh breaks off from the fight (this portion is missing from the Standard Babylonian version but is supplied from other versions) and they become friends. Gilgamesh proposes the adventure of the cedar forest.
Preparation for the adventure of the cedar forest; many give support, including the sun-god Shamash.
Journey of Gilgamesh and Enkidu to the cedar forest.
Gilgamesh and Enkidu, with help from Shamash, kill Humbaba, the demon guardian of the trees, then cut down the trees which they float as a raft back to Uruk.
Gilgamesh rejects the sexual advances of the goddess Ishtar. Ishtar gets her father, the sky-god Anu, to send the "Bull of Heaven" to avenge Gilgamesh and his city. Gilgamesh and Enkidu kill the bull.
The gods decide that somebody has to be punished for killing the Bull of Heaven, and it is Enkidu. Enkidu becomes ill and describes the Netherworld as he is dying.
Lament of Gilgamesh for Enkidu.
Gilgamesh sets out to avoid Enkidu's fate and makes a perilous journey to visit Utnapishtim and his wife, the only humans to have survived the Great Flood who were granted immortality by the gods, in the hope that he too can attain immortality. Along the way, Gilgamesh encounters the "ale-wife" Siduri who attempts to dissuade him from his quest.
Completion of the journey, by punting across the Waters of Death with Urshanabi, the ferryman.
Gilgamesh meets Utnapishtim, who tells him about the great flood and gives him two chances for immortality. First he tells Gilgamesh that if he can stay awake for six days and seven nights he will become immortal. Gilgamesh fails, but Utnapishtim decides to give him another chance. Utnapishtim tells Gilgamesh that if he can obtain a plant from the bottom of a sea and eat it he will become immortal. Gilgamesh obtains the plant, but it is stolen by a snake. Gilgamesh, having failed both chances returns to Uruk, where the sight of its massive walls provoke Gilgamesh to praise this enduring work of mortal men.

First of all, this tablet came after the Noahic flood. Noah had three sons: Ham, Shem, and Japheth. Ham apparantly sodomized Noah, for which he was accursed and driven off from the others. Ham had Cush, and Cush had Nimrod. Nimrod married his own mother Ishtar (is this gross or what?). Actually she went by another name before they married, I think it was Semiaris. Ishtar appointed herself and Nimrod as a god and goddess -- mighty thoughtful of her. They sacrificed their own children to pagan gods -- a great mother indeed, and a fine example of moral fiber! Ishtar was better known as Ashtorah in Egyptian theology, and Dianna in the era of the greeks. The temple of Dianna is well known for its sex orgies and child prostitution practices.

What does any of this have to do with Christianity or the Hebrew faith? They certainly didn't plagiarize immorality -- the trademark of false doctrine.

 

[Yorda]

You don't. You believe. In the same way that the Fang people believe that some are born with an internal organ called an evur, which can be used in witchcraft to affect or even kill other people. The Azande call it mangu. They "know" it to exist, because they've been told by their parents and their parents' parents of its existance.

But duendy thinks it's possible to prove it. That witchcraft probably has truth in it, otherwise parents' parents wouldn't have told it to their kids. Is the evur/mangu located in the brain?