Is Hell for Real?

[Woody]

Skinwalker said,

Let me correct that: to be a fundamentalist church member of your church (perhaps), you cannot let it be known that you are a drug addict, homosexual, living in adultery, fornicator, murderer, thief, or living any other lifestyle that would send you to prison.

I'm not going to argue your points, but let's see if we can find truth and be objective about it. Anyone is invited to come to our church, and I would be glad to attend with you or anyone else regardless of their past. I'm ashamed of my past, and I thank the Lord he forgave me.

The point is a person can not be a member of our church while living a non-christian lifestyle, and for good reasons. How many times have you heard someone was a member of thus-and-so church, and they lived like the devil? It is a bad reputation for the church because you hear the whole church being called hypocrits as a result of one person. "They're all hypocrits." How many times have you heard that even on this forum? A hypocrit is someone that acts like something they are not. The world looks at this and judges Jesus when they should be looking at Jesus to judge Jesus.

I want to stay focused here on the prison issue, because I know people that serve in christian prison ministries, some were former cons themselves. Jesus himself commanded us to visit those in prison, in the hospitals, rest homes, etc. I served 9 years in a rest home ministry and I've been on visitation for 5 years, but I've never been to jail except for a troubled time in my former life.

I need to study this before I can articulate an objective opinion.

 

[Woody]

Skinwalker,

I looked over the statistics and it looks like the atheists win one. Congratulations, at least athiests stay out of trouble:

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

The worst correlation is with race where almost 10% of all african-american males between the age of 25 and 30 are in prison. Overall, blacks are ten times more likely than whites. More than half of all prisoners in the US are there on drug charges:

http://www.afroscentric.com/race%20and%20prison.htm

I looked over Dr. Koenig's results on the prison population at Butner, NC where 96 out of 106 federal inmates were interviewed. 57% were there on drug charges.

http://www.dukespiritualityandhealth.org/pastreports.html

Drug addiction is a major problem that needs treatment, and it can make anyone desperate enough to become a criminal. Christians are capable of doing anything bad a nonchristian can do.

Sinners are the people that Jesus came to minister to, and for this he was reviled by the pharisees in their smug self-righteousness. They did everything right, except they didn't love others. Their pride was their downfall.

I am glad to see you are working with those in prison. My sister used to be the secular alternative for people with social/family problems.

I've had the opportunity to work closely with offenders of various ages, cultures, and levels of incarceration. I've met very few that won't admit to their crimes.

I suppose that depends on who does the asking, but I don't know. You are more experienced in this matter.

 

[SkinWalker]

While you're studying, you'll note that little empirical data is available (that I've noticed at any rate) that covers religion among inmates specifically. However, by looking at related studies, such as the one I cited, you can start to get a feel for the religiosity among inmates. In all such studies, I've noted that actual denominations and faiths vary from region to region with protestant/baptist dominating the south eastern U.S. and catholic as well as Islam becoming more predominate around north eastern states. Catholocism is high among south western states as well.

There is also a breakdown floating around the internet (it has for some time) and often cited by atheist organizations that reads as such:

Catholic 29,267 31.432%
Protestant 26,162 28.097%
None/Atheist/Unknown 18,537 19.908%
Muslim 5,435 5.837%
American Indian 2,408 2.586%
Nation of Islam 1,734 1.862%
Rastafarian 1,485 1.595%
Jewish 1,325 1.423%
Church of Christ 1,303 1.399%
Pentecostal 1,093 1.174%
Moorish 1,066 1.145%
Buddhist 882 0.947%
Jehovah's Witnesses 665 0.714%
Adventist 621 0.667%
Eastern Orthodox 375 0.403%
Latter-day Saints 298 0.320%
Scientology 190 0.204%
Hindu 119 0.128%
Santeria 117 0.126%
Sikh 14 0.015%
Baha'i 9 0.010%
ISKCON 7 0.008%
-------------------- ------ --------
Total 93,112 100.000%

It is usually attributed to Denise Golumbaski, who was a Research Analyst for the Federal Bureau of Prisons and that the data is a from March 5th, 1997 compilation.

I list it here for two reasons: 1) perhaps someone can validate/in-validate the info by properly citing a primary source; 2) so you'll recognize the data as you do your own searches and understand that it may or may not be empirical. It could very well be that an atheist organization/individual invented the data or compiled it using questionable sources and simply applied a fabricated source to give it credibility.

But you will of course agree with me that members of your church may, indeed, be living an "unchristian" lifestyle and keep it to themselves, right? My former boss was a devout christian and I observed him reading scriptures in his spare time, talking with friends of his about church events, etc.... by all appearances, he was the most consistant christian I'd every met. In fact, even as skeptical as I am about people, I refused to believe it when the corporate management told me that he was guilty of embezzelment, theft, etc. just after they fired him. Today, he's under indictment by the Federal government.

 

[SkinWalker]

Skinwalker,

I looked over the statistics and it looks like the atheists win one. Congratulations, at least athiests stay out of trouble:

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

Like I said, that's the very data that I had a hard time validating. I would need to visit my uni library and check a few sources. Its inline with what I expected, I just don't see a primary source citation that can be relied upon.

This is why I didn't use it in my argument about religiosity among inmates in my first post on the subject to you. If I do, however, come across supporting data, I'll post it here.

 

[Woody]

Sarkus,

Okay - so if me and my friend both make up the same thing, and claim me to be the next prophet, then this is acceptable?
But if I say it on my own it's not?

You are Correct -- you and your co-conspirator jumped the first hurdle, but there are many more, and when you jump all of them together it is possible you can bring in a false doctrine, because the bible says in the last days even the elect will be deceived by the antichrist. Satan is a clever deceiver.

Okay - so we had one man and one woman at the start.
Then where did everyone else come from.
Adam and Eve had children (Cain, Abel etc) but where did the rest of mankind come from?
Surely God created other "originals"?
Or does God condone incest as a necessary means of population growth?

Apparantly God condones incest when it is necessary to continue a population. Consider this: God created Adam and Eve with a perfect genetic make-up. Eve was made from Adam. So their genetic maps were identical with the exception of sex gametes. Their offspring were genetically perfect as well, so a brother marrying a sister would not produce the disasterous results that it produces today.

In simple terms:
Christianity = obey the law + believe in God.
Atheism = obey the law (but we'll allow you to "covet your neighbours wife"! Yay!)

When the hubby finds out, he will be one pissed off dude, and he can plead second degree murder.

 

[spidergoat]

It's nice to hear from someone that doesn't come throwing stones because all the windows here are about broken.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

[Woody]

Skinwalker,

But you will of course agree with me that members of your church may, indeed, be living an "unchristian" lifestyle and keep it to themselves, right? My former boss was a devout christian and I observed him reading scriptures in his spare time, talking with friends of his about church events, etc.... by all appearances, he was the most consistant christian I'd every met. In fact, even as skeptical as I am about people, I refused to believe it when the corporate management told me that he was guilty of embezzelment, theft, etc. just after they fired him. Today, he's under indictment by the Federal government.

I will agree with you 100% on this matter. For example, Over half of all males in church today have a problem with pornography.

Sometimes even church leadership can fall prey. I've heard of a minister that left his wife and the ministry to become a homosexual. Look at the catholic priests with child molesting charges. There are no guarantees in this world -- and to me that is a scary thought. Even someone I would trust with my life could turn against me.

But I do trust Jesus. There were times I doubted him, but he was always right. If I didn't think he was good I wouldn't tell others about him. There is always a chance I could be wrong about him because I am only human, but when I look back at the changes he made in my life I know I could not have done it myself. I am willing to take my chances with Jesus and He says I have to if I want to be His -- that's what faith is all about, and it has always worked for me. I can not take the step of faith for someone else, they have to take the step.

In the final analysis God is love by definition. I believe in love, and it sure helped me.

 

[duendy]

Christians are infamous for creating scapegoats. the most infamous of those is the 'Devil'....but in their time they'v demonized animals including cats, standing stones, other peoples gods, people with a dark skin colour, musical chords, dancing, singing, sexuality, taking strange plants and herbs not sanctioned by the church, etc etc--it's a LOOONG list. even their own idea of 'angels' they warn they relly MIGHt be 'his', Old Nicks mates, so one has to be very careful etc

now i hear you going on about black people, people on drugs, people who are into porn, etc

so what's changed??

But what i notice about you fundamentalist christians, or just chritians in general, what you usually dont demonize or even challenge is the very SYSTEM itself. in your case--if you're American--what BushW the 'born agin christian'--is actually DOING. None seem to question all that. you rather choose the VICTIMs of the systems fascism, thus scapegoatin and not understanding the UNDERLYING cause of the problems

 

[Woody]

Duendy said,

right Woody. you say that you as a christian obey your 'God's' commandment of 'thou shalt not kill'...yes or no?

Yes, I agree. The old testament also says to stone someone to death if they work on the sabbath, and I won't do that for odvious reasons.

you also say that as a christian you are to follow the authority of the state, but not regarding faith? ye or nay?

Yes, that is correct, if faith is in conflict with the government, then faith takes precedence.

Do you believe BushW is a christian? yes? no?

I am inclined to believe he is, but I know he is not God.

do you agree with him murdering thousands of Iraqi people? yes or no?

Was it right or wrong morally for America to wage war in Iraq? I don't know the answer, but time will tell if this was the right thing to do or not. To be ligitimate about the whole thing, Bush senior should have finished the job he started.

I ask you a question Duendy, since you are from England. How did your parents or grandparents feel when Germany bombed London? As an american, I would feel the same way when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.

Now I ask you another question, was it right for america to bomb Japan with a nuclear warhead? Or should more americans have been killed with a conventional ground war in Japan?

Now america was bombed in New York City. To us in america this is our second pearl harbor and Al Quaida is the new Nazi army. They have no regard for human life, they will torture or behead anyone they want to, and they will send innocent children to die as suicide bombers. They would like nothing better than a nuclear bomb in New York harbor and Washington, DC. They have the money and the fanatic following to pull it off. We may see that day in our lifetime. With that said, shouldn't somebody do something about it? Or should we sit idol, and do like Chamberlain, the British Prime minister that rolled over and played dead for Hitler? Chamberlain would be a perfect fit for the american democratic party. Thank the Lord you guys had a leader with some backbone: Winston Churchill. Was he a christian? I provide you with one of his quotes: "Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization."

now i hear you going on about black people, people on drugs, people who are into porn, etc

so what's changed??

But what i notice about you fundamentalist christians, or just chritians in general, what you usually dont demonize or even challenge is the very SYSTEM itself. in your case--if you're American--what BushW the 'born agin christian'--is actually DOING. None seem to question all that. you rather choose the VICTIMs of the systems fascism, thus scapegoatin and not understanding the UNDERLYING cause of the problems

Duendy, you are applying a "stereotype" argument. You haven't heard me gunning for black people. There are many African people in america that are christians the same as myself. Moses married an ethiopian woman (a negro). The God I believe in created black men and women, and I won't argue with him about his choices. Bush (a republican) appointed many minorities to high positions in american politics, the latest being Condoleeza Rice as secretary of state and Gonzales for the Supreme court. You'll notice when the democrats are in power, it's all pale faces.

It sounds like you have a lot of pent up anger and resentment. Your own prime minister, Blair, supported the invasion in Iraq. I have a lot of respect for Magaret Thatcher, but I have no respect at all for Prince Charles, and the royal family of free-loaders.

Christians are infamous for creating scapegoats. the most infamous of those is the 'Devil'....but in their time they'v demonized animals

I'll agree with you on one thing: Christians have "demonized" the devil, better known as the Lord of the Demons. He goes around on the earth seeking whom he may devour. If you were stretched out on a satanic altar for human sacrifices, you might also believe he is evil. (I hope that doesn't happen). England had druids that sacrificed people to appease their gods.

 

[duendy]

see yourself woody as you chage your way--shapeshift--to suit the oppressive system. from harping on about your Cristian faith' commandment to 'thou shalt not kill' you change in the twinkly of an eye to justifying hydrogen bombs dropped on millions of innocent people etceteraaa

and you wonder why you fundys aren't taken seriously...?

 

[Woody]

Duendy,

I agree that thou shalt not kill is a good law. What is it you are looking for? Do you think I like the world system, or even our own system in the USA?

Or to be a good christian in your eyes, should everyone become a Jehovah's Witness and refuse to join the military even when our nation is under attack?

Is self-defense murder in your opinion? What is the right thing to do in a war, is it to surrender?

Before we can agree on these questions, it is useless to discuss Iraq.

What do you think about 300 thousand Iraqi's that are buried in mass graves?

Does human rights even figure into your equation of right and wrong, ie people being allowed to vote for their leadership, women given a right to be something besides chattel?

What is it you are so upset about with the system, what system, please be specific?

and you wonder why you fundys aren't taken seriously...?

Well actually we are taken very seriously, the world is scared of us. The fundys vote republican. The world knows that america is back and it scares them. The founding fathers of this nation were largely fundys, that believed freedom is a God given right for humanity. Britain's government is founded on the same principles. What do you want instead, communism, socialism, what?

 

[Awake]

One of the many problems with some of the principles being discussed is that the definitions have changed over time. Christianity has had many forms, as well as Communism and Socialism. If we were to look at the actual definitions and see what they really mean, then they may just be what we are looking for (Not the twisted meanings they have come to represent.) Christianity alone is described by many names to include many sects of beliefs. How can anyone truely know what definition or set of beliefs are right, if any?

I know I have set myself up for the fundamentalists to berate this but oh well. The many sects of Christianity can't agree much less other religions that have many of the same beliefs just stated differently due to their own cultural and societal differences. To me its like the fundamental Christians want to dictate to the world, instead of letting people think for themselves, decide what they believe and live a life that is true to their own selves.

To make an analogy about it.....
Fundamentalist: From now on everyone has to eat the same kind of food!! Not only that but you must prepare it the same exact way. Not only that but you must eat at the same exact time.

Every one else: But why? We don't like that food. Or we like to put a different spice on it. Or it doesn't fit our schedule to eat then.

Fundamentalists: Because if you don't you will die and be tormented forever.

I know, I know, they don't try to control what you eat, necessarily. But they do try to control what you do, watch, listen to, date, marry, vote for, contraception, etc.

I recently visited the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC and fundamentalist remind me of a certain other controlling leader.

 

[Woody]

Awake,

I recently visited the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC and fundamentalist remind me of a certain other controlling leader.

Some christians were among the holocast victims because they hid jews from the Nazi authorities. Christians care deeply for the Jewish people, though I would say the relationship is probably unilateral. Who else likes Israel besides the USA?

Awake, you seem like a reasonable person.

The many sects of Christianity can't agree

You are right, but they do agree on one thing -- Jesus is the Christ.

Every one else: But why? We don't like that food. Or we like to put a different spice on it. Or it doesn't fit our schedule to eat then.

Fundamentalists: Because if you don't you will die and be tormented forever.

OK, I get the gist, and in reality there are only two foods: the tree of life and the tree of death. The food from the tree of death (sin) tastes much better. We are trying to tell you that some day it (sin) will kill you. But it is everyone's choice to eat what they want. Nobody can tell you what to do it's really your choice.

I won't berate you for being honest with yourself. After reading through my posts last night, I must say yeah some of the things I said were pretty bad, and they look bad, and sound kookie. With an honest admission and a window of vulnerability I'll probably have some troll jump all over me too and make me wish I hadn't said some things. I'm filtering most of the trolls now, so I won't see it.

Take care chap.

p.s. The thing that really saddens me the most about the war in Iraq is the brave men and women in the service including the british that have had their lives cut short. I think the service people deserve the best our country can offer them instead of another Viet Nam era deal -- which I considered shameful treatment of our servicemen.

 

[stretched]

Hi Woody,

Thanks for your response I will respond shortly.

Allcare.

 

[Woody]

I'll argue against myself.

Some christians were among the holocast victims, but if you ask some jews they would say christians started the whole mess -- Italy, being an axis power, and the rise of Hitler being an attempt to reunify the Holy Roman Empire.

I will start a new thread with a more pleasant subject -- the title is: What is love?

 

[mis-t-highs]

please dont.

 

[DDD]

Some wise woman said once, "you will hear God when He gives answer to you". Maybe, you will not find him in you earth life, but, as you know, Death gives answer to all questions.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

DDD: Some wise woman said once, "you will hear God when He gives answer to you". Maybe, you will not find him in you earth life, but, as you know, Death gives answer to all questions.
*************
M*W: Welcome, DDD, to the Religion Forum. Can you provide evidence for death's answers to all questions? It would make for an informative discussion. Thanks.

 

[stretched]

Hi Woody,

Quote W:
" Jews have the same God we do, but Muslims do not, unfortunately."

"Allah" is the primary Arabic word for "God". 12 Million Arab Christians use the word to denote God. The Muslims worship the OT god, the god of Abraham, whatever you want to call him. Are you saying the OT god is not the god of Abraham?

Quote S:
"2) Jesus has in his heart, the capacity to condemn men that he created, to eternal hell, where the keywords seem to be "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth". And eternity implies no forgiveness. Have you the capacity to condemn your own kids to such a fate, for whatever reason? Furthermore God, his image or his character as described in the OT, is certainly no rolemodel for moral behaviour. Unless of course you accept murderous, jealousy and vindictiveness as decent traits."

Quote W:
" The fact that Jesus sends people to Hell that are hopelessly rebellious does not mean he no longer loves them, and I know you don't understand this. Jesus actually loves satan, as a rebellious child that must be put in prison, and must pay for what he has done wrong."

Simple question: Would you Woody, condemn your kids to this torturous, eternal hell I described above for rebellion? Yes or no?

Quote W:
"The crime rate is high in the U.S. but it is not the Christian population that is going to prison for most of it."

That is not true, 78% of Americans consider themselves Christian. So it seems being "Christian" is not a moral advantage.

Quote W:
" He is not a christian but in his own statement, christianity was the only thing keeping america from a complete moral collapse."

I concede that in his view this could seem plausible, but that is one Japanese view in 180 million. Unfortunately President Bush is not the best role model for Christian behaviour. Although he does a fair job of impersonating the OT god of war and vengeance.

Quote W:
"Every believer must make a decision for themselves, whether they want to continue feeding off of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which leads to death, or whether they want to feed off of the tree of life which is Jesus."

If you have found sincere value in your faith, good for you, but that luxury is not granted to any curious and honest person who scratches a little deeper into the facts concerning Christianity. Scrutiny and blind faith are uncomfortable bedfellows.

Allcare.