Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[DaveC426913]

The physical is the foundation upon which mathematics is based .

No it isn't.
I just showed you several examples of math that require no basis in the physical world.

 

[Write4U]

The physical is the foundation upon which mathematics is based .

The physical is the measurement, expressed in values, mathematical is the processing function.
Not quite accurate. It's the physical pattern, the mathematically permissible growth structure of the physical arrangements, like crystals. Actually it is a self-referential growth pattern.

Mathematics are inherently self-referential in essence. The mathematics and the mechanics are founded on naturally occurring (in this universe) mathematical equations.

There is nothing that can replace the "mathematical function" in processing the exchange of relative (physical) values. Matter is a (dense) pattern of specific atoms arranged in an orderly manner in accordance to their relative value. The denser the pattern the more solid it becomes, until it is expressed physically as "matter" of a certain kind to sensory observation.

 

[DaveC426913]

What Mathematics does fine without any physical thing existing ?

Arithmetic, for starters.

I feel like I'm talking to Ten Second Tom.

 

[river]

Really ? what is Arithmetic based on ?

On what is the Arithmetic calculating ?

Shapes .

And where does the idea , thinking of shapes come from ?

Environment , our real physical reality , and within ourselves .

 

[DaveC426913]

Really ? what is Arithmetic based on ?

Pure abstract logic.

On what is the Arithmetic calculating ?

Abstract concepts.

Shapes .

Sometimes. Not always.
Mathematics is often applied to the physical world, but it is not dependent on it.

By the way, "shapes" is only one tiny subset of mathematics, called geometry. And geometry is also not dependent on the physical world. Have look at Calabi Yau manifolds - six dimensions.

 

[river]

Pure abstract logic.


Abstract concepts.


Sometimes. Not always.
Mathematics is often applied to the physical world, but it is not dependent on it.

By the way, "shapes" is only one tiny subset of mathematics, called geometry. And geometry is also not dependent on the physical world. Have look at Calabi Yau manifolds - six dimensions.

Three dimensions is all anything needs to exist . Which is basis of six dimensions .

 

[Write4U]

Environment , our real physical reality , and within ourselves

Order from chaos ! A logical operand...
Chaos theory
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Chaos Theory)
For other uses, see Chaos theory (disambiguation) and Chaos (disambiguation).

A plot of the Lorenz attractor for values r = 28, σ = 10, b = 8/3

A animation of a double-rod pendulum at an intermediate energy showing chaotic behavior. Starting the pendulum from a slightly different initial condition would result in a vastly different trajectory. The double-rod pendulum is one of the simplest dynamical systems with chaotic solutions.

Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics focusing on the study of chaos—states of dynamical systems whose apparently-random states of disorder and irregularities are often governed by deterministic laws that are highly sensitive to initial conditions.

Chaos theory is an interdisciplinary theory stating that, within the apparent randomness of chaotic complex systems, there are underlying patterns, interconnectedness, constant feedback loops, repetition, self-similarity, fractals, and self-organization.

The butterfly effect, an underlying principle of chaos, describes how a small change in one state of a deterministic nonlinear system can result in large differences in a later state (meaning that there is sensitive dependence on initial conditions).[4] A metaphor for this behavior is that a butterfly flapping its wings in China can cause a hurricane in Texas......more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

If the Universe is mathematical in essence, human science and mathematics may be able to answers all these questions, eventually. This thing started a long time ago and in the mean time a few obstacles to the observation of older observable systems have been overcome and yielding vastly improved accuracy in measuring technology, Hubble, Electron microscopes, , LHC, allow us to look at the patterns and structures on incredibly large and small scales and under early universe conditions.

Truly informed testing and comparing of data is able to make much more reliable predictions, than in the past and should eventually lead to a "concept" of emergent super symmetries which transcend ordinary symmetries and patterns. (see Chaos Theory)

Here we are discussing "consciousness"... I think this is new era of inquiry into the actual mechanics of conscious thought. News of experiments and proofs are issued on a daily basis by .gov websites, such as https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC391071/

I am constantly encouraged by news on the easy and hard problems of "consciousness".

 

[Write4U]

Three dimensions is all anything needs to exist

physically, but that does not include how it behaves.

Which is basis of six dimensions

It is named a "manifold" for a reason...., 3 geometric dimensions + 3 mathematical dimensions?

Mathematics control both mathematically permitted and prohibited physical behaviors, without prejudice.

 

[river]

↑

Three dimensions is all anything needs to exist

physically, but that does not include how it behaves.

It does when you look deeper into the objects three dimensional properties .

 

[river]

physically, but that does not include how it behaves. It is named a "manifold" for a reason...., 3 geometric dimensions + 3 mathematical dimensions?

Mathematics control both mathematically permitted and prohibited physical behaviors, without prejudice.

That is crux that mathematical thinking has gotten wrong . This mindset is mainstream thinking . Which is completely wrong .

Ultimately any physical behaviours , are because of the interaction between physical things .

 

[river]

As I said before , Mathematics in and of its self can never create a real physical object .

 

[paddoboy]

That is crux that mathematical thinking has gotten wrong . This mindset is mainstream thinking . Which is completely wrong .
.

Have they? On your say so? Yep, they certainly laughed at Bozo the clown.

As I said before , Mathematics in and of its self can never create a real physical object .

No one I believe ever said it did. Your comprehension is on a slippery slide!

 

[river]

Have they? On your say so? Yep, they certainly laughed at Bozo the clown.

river said: ↑
As I said before , Mathematics in and of its self can never create a real physical object .

No one I believe ever said it did. Your comprehension is on a slippery slide!

Disagree Write4U , post#1048

Mathematics control both mathematically permitted and prohibited physical behaviors, without prejudice.

 

[paddoboy]

Have they? On your say so? Yep, they certainly laughed at Bozo the clown.
No one I believe ever said it did. Your comprehension is on a slippery slide!

And its getting further and further into the mire.
You havn't answered any of the questions put to you tonight river. Too difficult? Too relevant in proving that you speak nonsense?
Just proof in my opinion, that you simply like hearing/seeing yourself talk/type.

 

[river]

From Write4U post#1048

Mathematics control both mathematically permitted and prohibited physical behaviors, without prejudice.

 

[paddoboy]

The facts among the river spouted nonsense, is that while mathematics is the language of physics, it can also be applied to the physical world, but it is not dependent on it as wisely put by Dave.

 

[river]

The facts among the river spouted nonsense, is that while mathematics is the language of physics, it can also be applied to the physical world, but it is not dependent on it as wisely put by Dave.

And Mathematics can not create nor manifest anything at all , without applied real physical objects in the mathematics .

 

[paddoboy]

Ignoring our village idiot [who is that you may ask ] I found this rather all encompassing definition of mathematics......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics
Mathematics (from Greek μάθημα máthēma, "knowledge, study, learning") includes the study of such topics as quantity (number theory),[1] structure (algebra),[2] space (geometry),[1] and change (mathematical analysis).[3][4][5] It has no generally accepted definition.[6][7]

Mathematicians seek and use patterns[8][9] to formulate new conjectures; they resolve the truth or falsity of conjectures by mathematical proof. When mathematical structures are good models of real phenomena, mathematical reasoning can be used to provide insight or predictions about nature. Through the use of abstraction and logic, mathematics developed from counting, calculation, measurement, and the systematic study of the shapes and motions of physical objects. Practical mathematics has been a human activity from as far back as written records exist. The research required to solve mathematical problems can take years or even centuries of sustained inquiry.

Rigorous arguments first appeared in Greek mathematics, most notably in Euclid's Elements.[10] Since the pioneering work of Giuseppe Peano (1858–1932), David Hilbert (1862–1943), and others on axiomatic systems in the late 19th century, it has become customary to view mathematical research as establishing truth by rigorous deduction from appropriately chosen axioms and definitions. Mathematics developed at a relatively slow pace until the Renaissance, when mathematical innovations interacting with new scientific discoveries led to a rapid increase in the rate of mathematical discovery that has continued to the present day.[11]

Mathematics is essential in many fields, including natural science, engineering, medicine, finance, and the social sciences. Applied mathematics has led to entirely new mathematical disciplines, such as statistics and game theory. Mathematicians engage in pure mathematics (mathematics for its own sake) without having any application in mind, but practical applications for what began as pure mathematics are often discovered later
more at link

 

[Write4U]

Ultimately any physical behaviours , are because of the interaction between physical things .

And what are the rules of this interaction? 1 + 1 = 3 ?

As I said before , Mathematics in and of its self can never create a real physical object .

Why do you want to include intent?
A blueprint and a tape measure cannot build a house either. But you need the information in order to be able to build the house.

 

[Write4U]

Mathematicians seek and use patterns

Nature also seeks and uses patterns based on the self-organizing mathematics of available physical values and mathematical processing functions, always in the direction of greatest satisfaction (best fit).