Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

That said, we all know love exists. We all know that consciousness exists. Maybe it would be fair to say that some things can’t be explained by science?

Of course they can. It's all in the mathematical patterns with emergent potentials.

It is when we start looking for that extra mysterious ingredient that science becomes bogged down.

All the ingredient for consciousness are already in place, that is undeniably true. We ARE conscious and we have brains which allows to experience conscious self-awareness. It's not mysterious at all.

We just don't yet know the exact mechanism, but IMO, microtubules are the only possible candidate, given our increasing knowledge of the incredible role they play in the formation of the human cellular patterns and their ability for functional sensory information processing.

They are the candidate to beat when it comes to "information processing" and the natural evolutionary path to conscious self-awareness. Any different interpretation is merely a matter of detail, not in the machinery. The processing machinery is in place and functional.

We are NOT looking for consciousness, we are looking AT consciousness. ALL Eukaryotic organisms are conscious to a certain functional degree because they ALL use microtubules in their cellular structures. Microtubules are a common biological denominator information processing machine.

The rest is about expanding knowledge of the functions that produce self-awareness by the brain (in a vat).

 

[Write4U]

is a feeling someone has.

Experiencing feeling is an evolved emergent refinement of sensory ability. Experiencing sight is an evolved sensory ability starting from a light sensitive chemical patch. Eagles have ten times the clarity and range of sight than humans. Their eyes evolved to produce the experience of visual cognition at very great distances. Human visual experience is limited as compared to eagles. Is that mysterious?

Conscious experiences are not mysterious. Self-awareness is just another form of an evolved sophisticated ability of sensory experience and it is not unique to humans only.

 

[wegs]

How about love? Is it necessary for survival? Is love learned or an innate trait?

 

[Write4U]

How about love? Is it necessary for survival? Is love learned or an innate trait?

Of course it is a survival strategy. A shared caring for offspring by a trusted mate is an effective survival strategy.

I would say the experience of love is an empathic mirror response .

Mirror neurons

A mirror neuron is a neuron that fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another.[1][2][3] Thus, the neuron "mirrors" the behavior of the other, as though the observer were itself acting. Such neurons have been directly observed in primate species.

In humans, brain activity consistent with that of mirror neurons has been found in the premotor cortex, the supplementary motor area, the primary somatosensory cortex, and the inferior parietal cortex.[5] The function of the mirror system in humans is a subject of much speculation. Birds have been shown to have imitative resonance behaviors and neurological evidence suggests the presence of some form of mirroring system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

And as we know, the information transport mechanism in neurons are microtubules.

 

[exchemist]

How about love? Is it necessary for survival? Is love learned or an innate trait?

The appearance of love pops up in some funny contexts. The oddest I can recall was on holiday in Reunion, where we happened to see some chickens, a cock and 3 hens, lying in the sun together. The hens were all snuggling round the cock, resting their heads on his feathers and whole scene was one of blissful and relaxed contentment in each other's presence. I hesitate to think it was love as we know it (Jim) , but it was some sort of close bond, for sure. (Of course, they were French, it being Reunion, but even so....)

I found myself thinking that, quite honestly, the feeling I have had, waking up next to a woman I love, is not a million miles from what they seemed to be experiencing. So maybe we make too much of it and it is far more universal in the animal kingdom - and has survival value.

 

[Write4U]

I totally agree.

Love and friendships are a universal phenomena even between the most unlikely species. Take away hunger and the survival instinct redirects in forming bonds which are emotionally satisfying to both individuals.

 

[Write4U]

/end thread

Not on your life...I've just begun. I know I'm on the right track.

It is the only biological candidate for providing a functional platform for consciousness. It's that simple.
No mystique or magical conjurings. Just an evolved biological computation process with ability to producing a hallucinatory experience of what the brain (you) expects to see. A "controlled hallucination". Anil Seth

In the mean time I have created a library of 40 pages, which to my amazement is also an apparent source of concern and is being cited as "too much information" presented on the biological properties and mechanics of consciousness, and the possibility that microtubules may even be functional at macro quantum levels, as reported in the most recent publications from scientificliterature.

In spite of the protestations to my investigation of consciousness in general and its mechanism in particular., no one has offered anything else than, "we don't know", "we haven't heard of any significant breakthrough for a long time", as if these observations were sufficient to stop a very active scientific inquiry by many scientific disciplines, and the slow but evolving body of knowledge that points to microtubules as the single viable candidate with known computational abilities, such as calculating mitosis and the exact copying of DNA for purposes of cell division and keeping our body healthy. As well as interoception, the unconscious monitoring, control, and regulation of our internal organs, every second, night and day for our entire lifetime.
And a host of other other information transport throughout the body's microtubule (neural) network, consisting of trillions of microtubules. The list is endless.. From the flagella in bacteria, to the
The attention now is focused on conscious self-awareness and the ability for emotional chemical responses such as empathy, aggressive, passive. One chemical response system is our survival response of "flight or fight", he two most powerful expressions of the emotion of "fear" . We all know the emotion of fear. We can examine it, quantify it, employ it, and induce it in others.
The human brain has the greatest "mind in a vat", the most complex biological computer we can imagine.

 

[Bells]

It is the only biological candidate for providing a functional platform for consciousness. It's that simple.

And yet, you have consistently failed to prove your hypothesis..

In the mean time I have created a library of 40 pages, which to my amazement is also an apparent source of concern and is being cited as "too much information" presented on the biological properties and mechanics of consciousness, and the possibility that microtubules may even be functional at macro quantum levels, as reported in the most recent publications from scientificliterature.

You have created a thread and repeated the same thing over and over again, linking the same links repeatedly and failing to actually provide anything of value or any proof whatsoever.

You call it a library?

I call it repetitive nonsense.

In spite of the protestations to my investigation of consciousness in general and its mechanism in particular., no one has offered anything else than, "we don't know", "we haven't heard of any significant breakthrough for a long time", as if these observations were sufficient to stop a very active scientific inquiry by many scientific disciplines, and the slow but evolving body of knowledge that points to microtubules as the single viable candidate with known computational abilities, such as calculating mitosis and the exact copying of DNA for purposes of cell division and keeping our body healthy. As well as interoception, the unconscious monitoring, control, and regulation of our internal organs, every second, night and day for our entire lifetime.
And a host of other other information transport throughout the body's microtubule (neural) network, consisting of trillions of microtubules. The list is endless.. From the flagella in bacteria, to the
The attention now is focused on conscious self-awareness and the ability for emotional chemical responses such as empathy, aggressive, passive. One chemical response system is our survival response of "flight or fight", he two most powerful expressions of the emotion of "fear" . We all know the emotion of fear. We can examine it, quantify it, employ it, and induce it in others.
The human brain has the greatest "mind in a vat", the most complex biological computer we can imagine.

That's interesting that you say that. Because I distinctly remember numerous people pointing out just how flawed what you kept linking repeatedly was. But you just kept linking it.

Tell me, are your microtubules the driver for your delusions of granduer?

 

[Write4U]

And yet, you have consistently failed to prove your hypothesis..

How do you know, Have you read the scientific literature ? I've provided exerpts and links...

You have created a thread and repeated the same thing over and over again, linking the same links repeatedly and failing to actually provide anything of value or any proof whatsoever.

How do you know this?

You call it a library? I call it repetitive nonsense.

How do you know this?

That's interesting that you say that. Because I distinctly remember numerous people pointing out just how flawed what you kept linking repeatedly was. But you just kept linking it.

How do they know this?

Tell me, are your microtubules the driver for your delusions of granduer?

Well, you may be interested to know that catastrophic failure of microtubules in the brain causes Alzheimer's. That's Hameroff's area of expertise. 40 years active anesthesiology practice in rendering people into objects and back into people again, safely!

Do you believe this guy is quack? Or do you actually know anything about Hameroff at all?

I don't mean to imply anything with that observation.......... Granduer?

 

[exchemist]

How do you know, Have you read the scientific literature ? I've provided exerpts and links...
How do you know this?
How do you know this?
How do they know this?
Well, you may be interested to know that catastrophic failure of microtubules in the brain causes Alzheimer's. That's Hameroff's area of expertise. 40 years active anesthesiology practice in rendering people into objects and back into people again, safely!

Do you believe this guy is quack? Or do you actually know anything about Hameroff at all?

I don't mean to imply anything with that observation.......... Granduer?

Grandeur.

 

[Write4U]

Grandeur.

Right....

Now you can tell Bells....

 

[Bells]

How do you know, Have you read the scientific literature ? I've provided exerpts and links...

I have, yes and you have provided the links repeatedly.

But the links do not provide any actual evidence.

As you were made aware repeatedly, the studies linked were flawed to begin with. Hammeroff and his cohorts have been unable to actually answer for those flaws.

What you are now doing is reigniting something that had already died down and you waited a period of time, perhaps in the hope that we'd have forgotten it all. You aren't the first and you won't be the last.

How do you know this?

How do you know this?

Because I have read through your thread.

I also participated in it.

Well, you may be interested to know that catastrophic failure of microtubules in the brain causes Alzheimer's.

I know this already.

And?

If you are interested in alzheimer's, you should also look up beta-amyloid 42, chronic inflammation caused by a build up of glial cells, one's genetic pre-disposition, and various other issues..

That's Hameroff's area of expertise. 40 years active anesthesiology practice in rendering people into objects and back into people again, safely!

Wait.. What?

Do you think that someone who is unconscious is an object?

Do you believe this guy is quack?

Yes.

Or do you actually know anything about Hameroff at all?

Everything you have posted about him and most importantly by him, led me believe he is a quack. I also read up a lot of other studies (if one can call them that) that also makes me believe he is a quack.

I don't mean to imply anything with that observation.......... Granduer?

What part of that did you not understand, exactly?

 

[exchemist]

Right....

Now you can tell Bells....

 

[Write4U]

Do you think that someone who is unconscious is an object?

Yes. Without consciousness what are you? I've been unconscious and I can assure you when you are unconscious, there is nothing. Absolutely nothing.

One might still mean something to someone else. But when you are unconscious, for that time you cease to exist as you. I believe the term is "vegetative state"?

 

[Write4U]

Tell me, are your microtubules the driver for your delusions of granduer?

What part of that did you not understand, exactly?

Granduer?

 

[Write4U]

And yet, you have consistently failed to prove your hypothesis..

I don't need to prove that we are consciously self-aware. As Tegmark observes; we are NOT looking for consciousness, we are looking AT consciousness and all the causal ingredients are before us. We just need to figure out how it works.
We use such terms as "neural networks", "synapses", "cerebrum", and descriptions like;

the cerebral cortex, not only processes sensory and motor information but enables consciousness, our ability to consider ourselves and the outside world.

are mere generalities that don't even present an hypothesis.

What you are overlooking that all those active parts consist of and are driven by microtubules which form the scaffolding for neural information transmission. The computer hardware.

Microtubules are major architectural elements without which the neuron could not achieve or maintain its exaggerated shape. In addition to serving as structural elements, microtubules are railways along which molecular motor proteins convey cargo.

Microtubule arrays in axons, dendrites, growth cones, and migratory neurons are tightly organized with respect to the intrinsic polarity of the microtubule, which is relevant to both its assembly and transport properties.

Vibrant research is being conducted on the mechanisms by which microtubules are organized in different compartments of the neuron, how microtubule dynamics and stability are regulated, and the orchestration of microtubule-based transport of organelles and proteins. While all of this is surely enough to cause one to marvel, we cannot avoid pondering - what other work might microtubules do for neurons?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3979999/

The only speculative part of ORCH OR is if microtubules can process qubits, which according to Penrose, is the level where consciousness resides.

ABSTRACT The scientific approach to understand the nature of consciousness revolves around the study of human brain. Neurobiological studies that compare the nervous system of different species have accorded highest place to the humans on account of various factors that include a highly developed cortical area comprising of approximately 100 billion neurons, that are intrinsically connected to form a highly complex network. Quantum theories of consciousness are based on mathematical abstraction and Penrose-Hameroff Orch-OR Theory is one of the most promising ones.

Inspired by Penrose-Hameroff Orch-OR Theory, Behrman et. al. (Behrman, 2006) have simulated a quantum Hopfield neural network with the structure of a microtubule. They have used an extremely simplified model of the tubulin dimers with each dimer represented simply as a qubit, a single quantum two-state system. The extension of this model to n-dimensional quantum states, or n-qudits presented in this work holds considerable promise for even higher mathematical abstraction in modelling consciousness systems

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1505/1505.00774.pdf

Can you suggest a better candidate? Please, I have an open mind. Convince me, or leave me free to explore this ultimate mystery, can you?

Too many pages devoted to the mystery of consciousness? Really?

 

[Write4U]

If you are interested in alzheimer's, you should also look up beta-amyloid 42, chronic inflammation caused by a build up of glial cells, one's genetic pre-disposition, and various other issues..

What do you think glial cells are composed of?

Radial glial cells organize the central nervous system via microtubule dependant processes

The microtubule (MT) cytoskeleton is central to regulating glial and neuronal functions during development and in the adult, providing the dynamic ability to extend processes, migrate, establish synaptic connections and transmit information.Nov 2, 2015

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006899315006617

Hameroff is an expert on Alzheimer's. It is his specialty.
When are you going to read some of my links?

p.s. thanks for making me find this link. A welcome addition to the library....

 

[Write4U]

@ Bells,
From a previous page.

W4U said; What organic mechanism allows for storage and retrieval of new information? Is this a conscious process or are there other paths to "learning and applying"?

Bells said; Neurons.

Right! And what are the self-organizing, self-regulating active information processing mechanisms of neurons?

Microtubules!

Your attemps to falsify my concept actually serve to reinforce my arguments.
But I believe that is the function and value of "falsfication". Thank you....

 

[Bells]

5 posts in response...

I have read your links and found them lacking.

You are taking a hypothesis and making general declarations because that is solely what you believe. Not because there is absolute proof, but because this is your belief.

And that's fine. More power to you. You can keep your beliefs.

The issue, however, is that you go at this like a religious zealot approaches a non-believer.

You are obsessed and determined to convert us. You are hounding us to the extent that we cannot even have rational discussions about brains, nerves, neurons, etc, or even viruses, without you looming like a spectre and going on and on about microtubules. And it follows the same pattern. You do a gentle lead up, trying to see if the way is clear and then you start and you don't stop. We all saw it was coming.

And then the lectures start, you make more declarations, make more grandiose statements, and then you keep on going, trying to convert.. Add in the condescending tone and smiley, links from your "library", images (funny thing was I went to bed last night thinking there would be pictures by the time I woke up), not to mention the deliberate act of taking things out of context.. It is predictable. You follow the same pattern of every religious zealot.. You will continue to try to convert, then face even more pushback, and then the sense of victimhood will start.. You will paint yourself as the martyr.. It's what you did last time before you left for a while.. Now you are back and the cycle begins again..

We are currently in the ramp up phase, where you start the ramp up to spread the word..

So let me stop you right here. I do not believe you or your claims. Because there is no evidence or actual proof. I also think Hammeroff and his cohorts are quacks and have cited numerous reasons as to why throughout this thread, so I won't be doing so again. This is not an invitation to start trying to convert me, because you will not. So don't bother.

 

[Write4U]

So let me stop you right here. I do not believe you or your claims. Because there is no evidence or actual proof. I also think Hammeroff and his cohorts are quacks and have cited numerous reasons as to why throughout this thread, so I won't be doing so again. This is not an invitation to start trying to convert me, because you will not. So don't bother

So, why do you bother? You don't like my style? I beg your pardon.

Now allow me my freedom of speech, OK?