Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

This is just getting better and better.

The things microtubules in single cells can do is just astounding.

 

[Write4U]

.. While there is, as yet, no direct experimental confirmation that the role of the MT cytoskeleton includes electrical signal conduction in neurons, there is a large amount of experimental evidence supporting a role for MTs in higher cognitive function and by extension, neuronal signaling. The role of the neuronal cytoskeleton in learning and memory has been previously reviewed [4,5,15]. While in most tissues MTs exhibit growth, catastrophe (shrinkage) and tread-milling movement, they are less dynamic in neurons, largely because of the stabilizing effect of MAPs. ...

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ebral_Cortex_Role_in_Memory_and_Consciousness

 

[James R]

Write4U:

Evolution has proven to apply to everything, not just to living things but to all natural self-organizing patterns.

Last time I checked, no such thing had been proven.

How does my bath soap evolve, for instance? I'm curious.

Mathematics is not the language of Humans. It is the language of Universal Logic, an abstract guiding equation that can be described and organized via symbolic mathematics such as human maths.

You're just making a faith-based claim there. What makes you think there is a "universal logic" that is separate from the human brain's desire to make sense of the world?

The manifestation of potential Higgs bosons was only mathematically predicted. There existed no record of ever having observed a Higgs boson.

In Cern it was the “applied mathematics” of controlling certain natural forces to spontaneously create the form of a Higgs boson pattern at very small scales.

It took the Collider, but by setting all the controls in a certain mathematical pattern, the Higgs boson, would appear and show us it’s naturally self-forming pattern.

You speak as if mathematics in the Large Hadron Collider somehow created Higgs bosons where none existed before, by some magical process.

The fact of the matter is that the LHC is a detector. Higgs bosons have been around forever. All the LHC did was to allow us to confirm their existence.

When we speak of “cell-memory”. is this the ability of cells to produce extremely small patterns , which may occasionally happen or at every instant in time, if we look deep enough.

If that's all it is, then it seems to me that "cell memory" is a bad term to use for it. "Memory" implies that an agent (usually conscious) is remembering something.

Existence is a pattern, a chronology of patterns, from the extremely subtle (abstract Implicated form) to gross expression in (Explicated form) as Reality (David Bohm).

We used to have a guy here who started multiple threads that always had the title "Existence is...". He was quite mad, and I believe he eventually got himself banned.

Reality consists of sets of patterns with various value densities, starting with fractals and showing up in all naturally self-forming universal geometries such as atoms and spiral galaxies.

There's no such thing as a "value density", as far as I'm aware. Or, at least, you haven't defined that term, yet. You're just making this stuff up, I think.

Wave functions shape the geometric arrangement and expressed (observable form) of complex patterns of size and density.

How could a wave function possibly do anything of the sort? How could any function shape anything? We're talking mathematical abstractions here, are we not?

Watch: How Sacred Geometry is embedded in Your DNA - Secrets of Geometric Art -

No thanks. It sounds like New Age crap. The word "sacred" is the give-away that ought to warn you that it isn't science.

 

[James R]

.. While there is, as yet, no direct experimental confirmation that the role of the MT cytoskeleton includes electrical signal conduction in neurons, there is a large amount of experimental evidence supporting a role for MTs in higher cognitive function and by extension, neuronal signaling. The role of the neuronal cytoskeleton in learning and memory has been previously reviewed [4,5,15]. While in most tissues MTs exhibit growth, catastrophe (shrinkage) and tread-milling movement, they are less dynamic in neurons, largely because of the stabilizing effect of MAPs. ...

You highlighted the wrong part.

 

[Write4U]

Write4U said: ↑
Evolution has proven to apply to everything, not just to living things but to all natural self-organizing patterns.

How does my bath soap evolve, for instance? I'm curious.

It is an artificial construct and has evolved quite a bit since its inception. Who or what does the organizing makes no difference. Natural selection is inherent in making choices.

Evolution is not specific in method, nor is natural selection. It's all part of the total universal chronology.
Is a termite mount an evolved habitat, with nurseries, gardens, air-conditioning? Are termites intelligent?

You're just making a faith-based claim there. What makes you think there is a "universal logic" that is separate from the human brain's desire to make sense of the world?

Why are you trying to enter humans into the functional properties of the universe. At best we are observers of a grand mathematical dynamic geometry that functions in a logical and orderly manner, which we have "symbolically" named as mathematical functions.
Input --> Function --> Output has nothing to do with humans. It is a Universal process.

• The intelligent states. I. Group‐theoretic study and the computation of matrix elements

ABSTRACT

In this first of a series of papers, a group‐theoretic study is presented of the quasi‐intelligent states which are a generalization of the intelligent states satisfying equality in the Heisenberg uncertainty relation ΔJ12ΔJ22? (1/4) ‖〈J3〉

2. A method based on the knowledge of a certain generating function is given for the calculation of matrix elements of polynomials in the infinitesimal generators of the rotation group between quasi‐intelligent states. Examples of such computations are also included to exhibit the improvement and efficiency of the present methods.

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.523840

Automorphic function

In mathematics, an automorphic function is a function on a space that is invariant under the action of some group, in other words a function on the quotient space. Often the space is a complex manifold and the group is a discrete group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automorphic_function

You speak as if mathematics in the Large Hadron Collider somehow created Higgs bosons where none existed before, by some magical process. The fact of the matter is that the LHC is a detector. Higgs bosons have been around forever. All the LHC did was to allow us to confirm their existence.

Not quite. The Higgs particle is created by excitation of the Higgs Field.

The Higgs boson is an elementary particle in the Standard Model of particle physics produced by the quantum excitation of the Higgs field,[8][9] one of the fields in particle physics theory.[9] In the Standard Model, the Higgs particle is a massive scalar boson with zero spin, no electric charge, and no colour charge. It is also very unstable, decaying into other particles almost immediately.

If that's all it is, then it seems to me that "cell memory" is a bad term to use for it. "Memory" implies that an agent (usually conscious) is remembering something.

You keep anthropomorphizing. A rubber band has shape-memory. Lots of things have inherent shape-memory.

But in biology, microtubule patterns have memory
Abstract

This chapter raises the question whether synaptic connections in the cerebral cortex are adequate in accounting for higher cognition, especially cognition involving multimodal processing. A recent and novel approach to brain mechanics is outlined, one that involves microtubules and microtubule-associated protein-2 (MAP2). In addition to effects on the neuronal membrane, neurotransmitters exert actions on microtubules. These neurotransmitter effects alter the MAP2 phosphorylation state and rates of microtubule polymerization and transport.

It is argued that these processes are important to the physical basis of memory and consciousness. In support of this argument, MAP2 is degraded with learning in discrete cortical modules. How this relates to synaptic change related to learning is unknown.

The specific proposal is advanced that learning alters microtubules in the subsynaptic zone lying beneath the synapse, and that this forms the physical basis of long-term memory storage because microtubule networks determine the synapse strength by directing contacts with actin filaments and transport of synaptic proteins.

It is argued that this is more probable than memory-related physical storage in the synapse itself. Comparisons to consciousness are made and it is concluded that there is a link between microtubules, memory and consciousness.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ebral_Cortex_Role_in_Memory_and_Consciousness

We used to have a guy here who started multiple threads that always had the title "Existence is...". He was quite mad, and I believe he eventually got himself banned.

And how does that coincide with me?

There's no such thing as a "value density", as far as I'm aware. Or, at least, you haven't defined that term, yet. You're just making this stuff up, I think.

I'm glad you asked. To keep it really short, I'm sure you have heard of "point-pattern density" as a generic description. I just went one step further and due to the fact that all things have an inherent value (such as mass), the expression of a "value-pattern density" is perfectly acceptable as a generic expression of pattern densities.

An example can be found in bacterial "quorum sensing" which is an enzyme-pattern density.

Example of specific enzyme-value density patterns (bacterial language):

All these descriptions can be in reverse as in point-density patterns or enzyme-density patterns or in its most generic form as value-density patterns

The human micro-biome is a set of value-density patterns, of which only 10 % is human in origin.

continued......

 

[Write4U]

......continued

How could a wave function possibly do anything of the sort? How could any function shape anything? We're talking mathematical abstractions here, are we not?

If you want to call wave-interference patterns mathematical abstractions, ok by me. I look at a river and see physical wave-interference patterns everywhere.

No thanks. It sounds like New Age crap. The word "sacred" is the give-away that ought to warn you that it isn't science.

I understand your resistance to the term "sacred" which implies a theistic connection.
But that does not negate the geometry itself which is axiomatic and is actually Old Age Science. Plato, Da Vinci and Carl Jung used universal geometrics in their works.

The traditional theory of DNA geometry and topology represents the double helix as a ribbon constructed from smooth curves describing an idealized structure. ... Such conditions hold in the case of DNA if the bases remain paired and the complementary strands have no covalent breaks. Jan 20, 2012

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4004093/#

Microtubules have a very specific geometry. They are self-forming di-polar coils and are a common denominator of all Eukaryotic biology. One could say that MT are a "sacred" geometric property of living organisms, without needing the religious connotation.

Microtubule-induced cortical cell polarity
Sarah E. Siegrist and Chris Q. Doe1 Institutes of Neuroscience and Molecular Biology, Howard Hughes Medical Institute, University of Oregon, Eugene, Oregon 97403, USA.

Most cells are polarized. Embryonic and stem cells can use their polarity to generate cell diversity by asymmetric cell division, whereas differentiated cells use their polarity to execute specific functions. For example, fibroblasts form an actin-rich leading edge required for cell migration, neurons form distinctive axonal and dendritic compartments important for directional signaling, and epithelial cells have apical and basolateral cortical domains necessary for maintaining tissue impermeability.

It is well established that actin and actin-associated proteins are essential for generating molecular and morphological cell polarity, but only recently has it become accepted that microtubules can induce and/or maintain polarity. One common feature among different cell types is that microtubules can establish the position of cortical polarity, but are not required for cortical polarity per se.

In this review, we discuss how different cell types utilize microtubules and microtubule-associated signaling pathways to generate cortical cell polarity, highlight common mechanisms, and discuss open questions for directing future research

http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/21/5/483.full.pdf

You highlighted the wrong part

No I did not. The quoted part specifically addresses the role of microtubules in context of memory.

The role of the neuronal cytoskeleton in learning and memory has been previously reviewed [4,5,15]. (cytoskeleton = microtubules)

 

[James R]

Write4U:

Natural selection is inherent in making choices.

Not as far as I'm aware. Care to explain?

Evolution is not specific in method, nor is natural selection.

I don't know what that means.

Is a termite mount an evolved habitat, with nurseries, gardens, air-conditioning? Are termites intelligent?

Yes, termites evolved and termites build their own mounds. There's a survival advantage for the termites when they do that. Are they intelligent? Not very, as far as I can tell. Depends on how you want to measure intelligence, I guess.

Why are you trying to enter humans into the functional properties of the universe. At best we are observers of a grand mathematical dynamic geometry that functions in a logical and orderly manner, which we have "symbolically" named as mathematical functions.

Last time I checked, there were no mathematical functions that exist independently of humans. We're the ones who write down functions and maths. Nobody else does it, as far as we know so far.

Not quite. The Higgs particle is created by excitation of the Higgs Field.

Yes, and like I said, Higgs particles have been around forever.

You keep anthropomorphizing. A rubber band has shape-memory.

I think you're anthropomorphising. Applying the term "memory" to what rubber bands do is a useful analogy, but that's all it is. The problem comes when you start believing that rubber can actually remember stuff like people can.

But in biology, microtubule patterns have memory

Not in the same way that you have memory.

I'm glad you asked. To keep it really short, I'm sure you have heard of "point-pattern density" as a generic description.

Nope. This is my first time.

I just went one step further and due to the fact that all things have an inherent value (such as mass), the expression of a "value-pattern density" is perfectly acceptable as a generic expression of pattern densities.

For me, value (in the abstract) is something that humans assign to things, rather than something inherent in the things themselves. But I fear we're about to digress out of science and into philosophy if we keep discussing that.

An example can be found in bacterial "quorum sensing" which is an enzyme-pattern density.

Please define "pattern density" for me. Thanks.

All these descriptions can be in reverse as in point-density patterns or enzyme-density patterns or in its most generic form as value-density patterns

Maybe. Maybe not. I need to know what pattern density is, first up. Can you help?

The human micro-biome is a set of value-density patterns, of which only 10 % is human in origin.

I thought the human micro-biome was a collection of bacteria and other microscopic hitchhikers that we all carry around with us. Those things are actual things, not just patterns. We can gather them and put them in bottle. Can't do that with patterns.

If you want to call wave-interference patterns mathematical abstractions, ok by me. I look at a river and see physical wave-interference patterns everywhere.

What you see when you look at a river is water - a physical substance. Your explanation of the disturbances you see on the surface might be in terms of patterns, but those are all in your head, not in the water.

I understand your resistance to the term "sacred" which implies a theistic connection.
But that does not negate the geometry itself which is axiomatic and is actually Old Age Science. Plato, Da Vinci and Carl Jung used universal geometrics in their works.

What is a "universal geometric"?

Microtubules have a very specific geometry. They are self-forming di-polar coils and are a common denominator of all Eukaryotic biology. One could say that MT are a "sacred" geometric property of living organisms, without needing the religious connotation.

All you seem to be doing is saying, in a convoluted way, that lots of lifeforms have microtubules inside. I don't disagree with that.

 

[Write4U]

Write4U:
Not as far as I'm aware. Care to explain?

Quantum events result in a natural selection (stochastic choice).

I don't know what that means.

These natural selections, from quantum to human choice, result in an evolved product.

Information and systems theory

In 1922, Alfred J. Lotka proposed that natural selection might be understood as a physical principle that could be described in terms of the use of energy by a system,[130][131] a concept later developed by Howard T. Odum as the maximum power principle in thermodynamics, whereby evolutionary systems with selective advantage maximise the rate of useful energy transformation.[132]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

All natural selections are stochastic choices and result in (d)evolved (changed) products.

Distinguished Public Service Medal, Hazen’s recent research focuses on the role of minerals in the origin of life, the co-evolution of the geo- and biospheres, and the application of “big data” to understanding mineral diversity and distribution

A bipartite network diagram of 400 carbon bearing minerals (colored circles) that are found at 300 worldwide localities (black circles). Mineral networks diagrams reveal previously hidden patterns in the diversity and distribution of minerals.

https://www.dallassymposium.org/2017-speaker-dr-robert-hazen/

Abiogenesis was/is an evolutionary product of natural selection.

Yes, termites evolved and termites build their own mounds. There's a survival advantage for the termites when they do that. Are they intelligent? Not very, as far as I can tell. Depends on how you want to measure intelligence, I guess.

That does not answer the question if termite mounds are a result of evolutionary processes, by any means.

Morphogenesis of termite mounds
Significance

Termite mounds are the result of the collective behavior of termites working to modify their physical environment, which in turn affects their behavior. During mound construction, environmental factors such as heat flow and gas exchange affect the building behavior of termites, and the resulting change in mound geometry in turn modifies the response of the internal mound environment to external thermal oscillations.

Our study highlights the principles of self-organized animal architecture driven by the coupling of environmental physics to organismal behavior and might serve as a natural inspiration for the design of sustainable human architectures.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/9/3379

Last time I checked, there were no mathematical functions that exist independently of humans. We're the ones who write down functions and maths. Nobody else does it, as far as we know so far.

How about the Fibonacci sequence in the natural growth patterns of plants?

FIBONACCI NUMBERS: THE SCIENCE OF PLANTS
The magic numbers that make up a plant’s appearance

THE MATHEMATICAL MAKE-UP OF PLANTS
Far from being some mystical code, these magic numbers play a functional role in plant growth – ensuring they grow in the most efficient way possible.

continued........

 

[Write4U]

........continued from #2108

James R said: ↑
Yes, and like I said, Higgs particles have been around forever.

Not as a durable pattern. They cannot exist independently.

I think you're anthropomorphising. Applying the term "memory" to what rubber bands do is a useful analogy, but that's all it is. The problem comes when you start believing that rubber can actually remember stuff like people can.

No it is not a useful analogy. It is a scientific term.

Shape-memory polymers (SMPs) are polymeric smart materials that have the ability to return from a deformed state (temporary shape) to their original (permanent) shape when induced by an external stimulus (trigger), such as temperature change.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_polymer

Not in the same way that you have memory.

And we have come full circle.
Pyramidal microtubule patterns are the brain's memory storage facilities in all living things and are even functional in the flagella of the single-celled paramecium.

Nope. This is my first time.

Great! I am pleased that I can direct your attention to this, what I believe to be a fundamental, natural self-organizational process and it's emergent potentials.

From post # 2108; Mineral networks diagrams reveal previously hidden patterns in the diversity and distribution of minerals.

Please define "pattern density" for me. Thanks.

Point pattern analysis

Point pattern analysis (PPA)[1] is the study of the spatial arrangements of points in (usually 2-dimensional) space. The simplest formulation is a set X = {x ∈ D} where D, which can be called the 'study region,' is a subset of Rn, an n-dimensional Euclidean space.

Four patterns of 256 points

Modeling

The null model for point patterns is complete spatial randomness (CSR), modeled as a Poisson process in Rn, which implies that the number of points in any arbitrary region A in D will be proportional to the area or volume of A. Exploring models is generally iterative: if CSR is accepted not much more can be said, but if rejected, there are two avenues.

First, one must decide which models are worth exploring, such as investigations of clustering, density, trends, etc. And for each of these models there are appropriate scale ranges, from the finest, which essentially mirrors the point pattern, to the coarsest, which aggregates D. It is generally interesting to explore a range of scales within these limits. A particularly robust model of clustered point patterns is diffusion, which can also be thought of as the trajectory of a point doing a random walk.

....more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_pattern_analysis

Now if we take this model and apply it generically to other objects we can label the model as value density patterns (value patterns densities)
Spatial point-pattern analysis for detecting density-dependent competition in a boreal chronosequence of Alberta
Surface tension of water is a result of surface point-pattern density, created by difference between internal and external pressures.

Surface tension, property of a liquid surface displayed by its acting as if it were a stretched elastic membrane. This phenomenon can be observed in the nearly spherical shape of small drops of liquids and of soap bubbles. Because of this property, certain insects can stand on the surface of water.

https://www.dreamstime.com/surface-...heme-needle-liquid-water-atoms-image175189666

Maybe. Maybe not. I need to know what pattern density is, first up. Can you help?

Clearly, "point pattern density" models are appropriate here.

For me, value (in the abstract) is something that humans assign to things, rather than something inherent in the things themselves. But I fear we're about to digress out of science and into philosophy if we keep discussing that.

Please stay with it.
4. What Sort of Thing Can Have Intrinsic Value?

Among those who do not doubt the coherence of the concept of intrinsic value there is considerable difference of opinion about what sort or sorts of entity can have such value. Moore does not explicitly address this issue, but his writings show him to have a liberal view on the matter.

There are times when he talks of individual objects (e.g., books) as having intrinsic value, others when he talks of the consciousness of individual objects (or of their qualities) as having intrinsic value, others when he talks of the existence of individual objects as having intrinsic value, others when he talks of types of individual objects as having intrinsic value, and still others when he talks of states of individual objects as having intrinsic value.

Some (such as Panayot Butchvarov) claim that it is properties that are the bearers of intrinsic value (Butchvarov 1989, pp. 14–15)

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/value-intrinsic-extrinsic/#WhaSorThiHavIntVal

I see the terms "value" or "value set" as a symbolic description of inherent properties and potential present in all physical objects and indeed being an essence of spacetime (geometry) itself.

I believe this must be "true" because all objects seem to interact in accordance with their intrinsic property values and would confirm the mathematical nature of the Universe itself.

continued.......

 

[Write4U]

......continued from # 2109

I thought the human micro-biome was a collection of bacteria and other microscopic hitchhikers that we all carry around with us. Those things are actual things, not just patterns. We can gather them and put them in bottle. Can't do that with patterns.

But everything in existence is an atomic and molecular pattern of a specific or variable density sets. Everything that displays a regularity has a pattern. Patterns already begin to form in Chaos and become expressed as physical regularities.

James R said: ↑ ;What you see when you look at a river is water - a physical substance. Your explanation of the disturbances you see on the surface might be in terms of patterns, but those are all in your head, not in the water.

I disagree. All physical objects are patterns. Electro-magnetic waves have specific and measurable patterns.

Humans can only perceive a small part of extant patterns that surround us everywhere.

Patterns in Maths

In Mathematics, a pattern is a repeated arrangement of numbers, shapes, colours and so on. The Pattern can be related to any type of event or object. If the set of numbers are related to each other in a specific rule, then the rule or manner is called a pattern. Sometimes, patterns are also known as a sequence. Patterns are finite or infinite in numbers.

https://byjus.com/maths/patterns/

What is a pattern in biology?
Definition.

Pattern formation is the developmental process by which cells acquire different identities, depending on their relative spatial positions within the embryo. Pattern formation ensures that tissues and organs develop in the correct place and orientation within the body.

https://www.nature.com/subjects/pattern-formation

What is a "universal geometric"?

Check this out.
https://www.quantamagazine.org/geometry-reveals-how-the-world-is-assembled-from-cubes-20201119/

All you seem to be doing is saying, in a convoluted way, that lots of lifeforms have microtubules inside. I don't disagree with that.

You're missing the point.

I believe that Abiogenesis occurred with the self-assembly of the first microtubular polymer.

Prokaryotes possess tubulin-like proteins including FtsZ. However, prokaryotic flagella are entirely different in structure from eukaryotic flagella and do not contain microtubule-based structures.

It is made up of a dimer of just two tubulins, the simplest molecular pattern that can self-organize and acquire electro-chemical processing abilities which are necessary for the evolution of modern Eukaryotic organisms.

All lifeforms have microtubules in various stages of evolution. Proto organelles can already be found in Prokaryotic life forms.

Structure, Assembly, and Dynamic Instability of Microtubules

In contrast to intermediate filaments, which are composed of a variety of different fibrous proteins, microtubules are composed of a single type of globular protein, called tubulin.

Tubulin is a dimer consisting of two closely related 55-kd polypeptides, α-tubulin and β-tubulin. Like actin, both α- and β-tubulin are encoded by small families of related genes. In addition, a third type of tubulin (γ-tubulin) is specifically localized to the centrosome, where it plays a critical role in initiating microtubule assembly (discussed shortly).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9932/

All forms of biological cellular learning and memories involve microtubules. This is why I see them as the seat of evolving consciousness from bacteria to humans.

 

[exchemist]

Write4U:


Not as far as I'm aware. Care to explain?

I don't know what that means.

Yes, termites evolved and termites build their own mounds. There's a survival advantage for the termites when they do that. Are they intelligent? Not very, as far as I can tell. Depends on how you want to measure intelligence, I guess.

Last time I checked, there were no mathematical functions that exist independently of humans. We're the ones who write down functions and maths. Nobody else does it, as far as we know so far.

Yes, and like I said, Higgs particles have been around forever.

I think you're anthropomorphising. Applying the term "memory" to what rubber bands do is a useful analogy, but that's all it is. The problem comes when you start believing that rubber can actually remember stuff like people can.

Not in the same way that you have memory.

Nope. This is my first time.

For me, value (in the abstract) is something that humans assign to things, rather than something inherent in the things themselves. But I fear we're about to digress out of science and into philosophy if we keep discussing that.

Please define "pattern density" for me. Thanks.

Maybe. Maybe not. I need to know what pattern density is, first up. Can you help?

I thought the human micro-biome was a collection of bacteria and other microscopic hitchhikers that we all carry around with us. Those things are actual things, not just patterns. We can gather them and put them in bottle. Can't do that with patterns.

What you see when you look at a river is water - a physical substance. Your explanation of the disturbances you see on the surface might be in terms of patterns, but those are all in your head, not in the water.

What is a "universal geometric"?

All you seem to be doing is saying, in a convoluted way, that lots of lifeforms have microtubules inside. I don't disagree with that.

Look what you've started now! There is sort of remorseless "Sorcerer's Apprentice" quality to these avalanches of crap.............

 

[Write4U]

Look what you've started now! There is sort of remorseless "Sorcerer's Apprentice" quality to these avalanches of crap.............

C'mon man, that is so cheap.
Trollish even. You are not offering anything of value here.
Are you too elite to bother with "pseudoscience"? Then please stay out of the way.

Posting James' questions but not my answers in an effort to bury the answers is just nasty. And by implication you are accusing James' pertinent questions as partaking and encouraging crap science, whereas your derision places you merely in the category of science obstructionist.

Microtubules are firmly entrenched in scientific research in abiogenesis and consciousness.

If you have evidence or information that falsifies or can improve on anything I posted in an honest effort to respond to serious questions show me. I am doing serious research on the state of science about microtubules.

And every year, some of my intuitive deductions and understanding are being confirmed.
You are just obstructing scientific inquiry, without contributing anything of value.

I have backed several answers with evidentiary quotes and links to "researchgate" (which you cited as a reliable source) and other reliable sources. Tell them they are posting an avalanche of crap on microtubules.

The finer scale of consciousness: quantum theory

The nature of consciousness has taken great evolution by centering on the behavioral and neuronal correlates of perception and cognition, for example, the theory of Neural Correlates of Consciousness, the Global Workspace Theory, the Integrated Information Theory.

The Quantum mechanics, a thriving branch of physics, has an inseparable relationship with consciousness (e.g., observer effect) since Planck created this subject and its derived quantum consciousness theory can perfectly fill this gap.

In this review, we briefly introduce some consciousness hypotheses derived from quantum mechanics and focus on the framework of orchestrated objective reduction (Orch-OR), including its principal points and practicality.

Quantum theory, a branch from the finer scale of consciousness, has been accompanied by numerous controversies since its inception, but abundant proof demonstrated that this theoretical framework is capable of explaining the majority of consciousness problems that traditional neuroscience could not, especially the orchestrated objective reduction (Orch-OR) theory introduced by Penrose and Hameroff.

Figure 1
Schematic diagram of dendrons and psychons of layer V pyramidal cells. Each triangle represents a pyramidal cell, and the ascending lines extending from the top of triangles are apical dendrites. Light spots (arrowhead), which are transported along apical dendrites with different colors, represent different kinds of psychons that could give rise to unique experiences. The dendrites cluster automatically while ascending to the superficial layer of cortex to configure dendrons (circle) according to the different psychons they transmit. Additionally, pyramidal cells are divided into different groups based on the distinct conscious experiences that they process (37).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6861790/

Note that "pyramidal cells" consist of microtubule arrays.

 

[Write4U]

Pyramidal neurons

Epilepsy, due to excessive neuronal excitation, is particularly common in brain regions containing many interconnected pyramidal neurons, such as the hippocampus. Some neurodegenerative disorders, including Alzheimer’s disease, disproportionately kill pyramidal neurons, leading to characteristic cognitive changes. Thus, pyramidal neurons are the building blocks for high-level functions like memory and consciousness. When they misbehave, the consequences can be profound.

Multi-scale hierarchy with dipole oscillations from neuron (left) downward in size and upward in frequency through microtubule, rows of tubulin, tubulin and London force dipole networks which oscillate in the terahertz regime. Anesthetics may act (lower right) by altering these collective dipole oscillations.
« Consciousness Depends on Tubulin Vibrations Inside Neurons, Anesthesia Study Suggests


Figure 1. Anesthesia in dendritic microtubules A. Schematic cytoplasmic interior of neuronal dendrite with networks of microtubules. B. Single microtubule with topological windings representing information ‘bits’. C. Single tubulin with hydrophobic channel of aromatic rings in which anesthetics (red circles) bind.37 D. Aromatic rings within hydrophobic channel showing London force dipole bits (top) in topological quantum computing necessary for consciousness. Below, anesthetics disperse dipole bits (and quantum bits, or ‘qubits’), preventing consciousness.

https://www.quantumconsciousness.org/sites/default/files/Why anesthetic mechanism research has failed(7).pdf

 

[James R]

Write4U:

That last series of posts of yours strikes me as desperately random. By that, I mean that you seem desperate to reach for anything that might support your faith-based beliefs, no matter how tenuous (or even non-existent, in some cases) the connection may be. At the same time, you fail to provide any support for some of the more significant and controversial claims you are making.

A lot of your posts contain random information from dictionaries and other basic sources that seems to spark your interest, and you spam that at me, presumably on the assumption that I'm unfamiliar with most of mathematics, physics and biology. I'm not entirely sure what led you to that false assumption. Maybe a version of the Dunning-Kruger effect, I'm guessing.

With that in mind, let's see what we have in the latest irrelevant scatter-spam.

Quantum events result in a natural selection (stochastic choice).

Unfortunately, you haven't even attempted to support that bold claim.

These natural selections, from quantum to human choice, result in an evolved product.

You're not using the term "natural selection" in the standard sense in which it is used in biology. If you have to redefine terms to support your argument, it could be that your argument is in deep trouble.

Mineral networks diagrams reveal previously hidden patterns in the diversity and distribution of minerals.

How is this relevant to the topic of consciousness in quantum processes in microtubules?

Abiogenesis was/is an evolutionary product of natural selection.

Another unsupported claim from you. A faith-based statement.

That does not answer the question if termite mounds are a result of evolutionary processes, by any means.

I think you'll find that there's no disagreement among biologists as to whether termites evolved, just like every other living thing on Earth.

How about the Fibonacci sequence in the natural growth patterns of plants?

Did the plants write down the sequence? How is this relevant to what I put to you?

No it is not a useful analogy. It is a scientific term. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_polymer

"Shape memory" is nothing like human memory. Or, more accurately, it is only remotely like it, if we use an analogy. Like I said before.

Pyramidal microtubule patterns are the brain's memory storage facilities in all living things and are even functional in the flagella of the single-celled paramecium.

Unfortunately, you haven't even attempted to support that bold claim.

Point pattern analysis [yada yada yada]

Thank you for the introduction. How is this mathematical concept relevant to the topic of consciousness in quantum processes in microtubules?

Now if we take this model and apply it generically to other objects we can label the model as value density patterns (value patterns densities)

How would we do that? This is entirely your own, novel, idea, right? It strikes me as totally undeveloped as any sort of hypothesis that we could test, especially since your definition of what a "value density pattern" is remains, at this point, quite obscure.

Spatial point-pattern analysis for detecting density-dependent competition in a boreal chronosequence of Alberta

Surface tension of water is a result of surface point-pattern density, created by difference between internal and external pressures.

How are these topics relevant to the topic of consciousness in quantum processes in microtubules?

Clearly, "point pattern density" models are appropriate here.

Nope. You have made no convincing link between such models and the topic of the thread.

I see the terms "value" or "value set" as a symbolic description of inherent properties and potential present in all physical objects and indeed being an essence of spacetime (geometry) itself.

Please give me one or two specific examples of a "value" and a "value set". Explain to me how those form a "symbolic description", and what "inherence properties" they describe.

What's the "value set" of a rock, for example? Does it have one? Show me the symbolic description.

I believe this must be "true" because all objects seem to interact in accordance with their intrinsic property values and would confirm the mathematical nature of the Universe itself.

Have you considered that things may "seem" that way to you because you're so desperate to belief in your fantasy of the mathematical universe? Could it be confirmation bias - you're seeing what you want to see?

But everything in existence is an atomic and molecular pattern of a specific or variable density sets.

You're confusing the map for the territory again. I can understand how one might describe the "point density set" of a molecular lattice, say, but that does nothing to establish that the lattice is a point density set. It would be exactly the same if I drew a map of the United States and then made the silly claim that the map is the United States. See the problem?

Everything that displays a regularity has a pattern.

The terms "regularity" and "pattern" are almost tautological, so no surprises there.

Patterns already begin to form in Chaos and become expressed as physical regularities.

That's just a faith-based belief of yours, again. You have done nothing to show that patterns begin to form in chaos, let alone come anywhere close to establishing that patterns can somehow take on a physical reality when they didn't have one before.

I disagree. All physical objects are patterns. Electro-magnetic waves have specific and measurable patterns.

Your use of language there is instructive. Notice how you slipped, without even noticing it?

You wrote "Electro-magnetic waves have ... patterns". I don't disagree. But just before that, you wrote that "objects are patterns".

Do you see that your statement about electromagnetic waves does nothing to support your claim about objects? It's not even an example of something being a pattern.

But how does any of this relate to the thread topic?

I believe that Abiogenesis occurred with the self-assembly of the first microtubular polymer.

Why do you believe that? Is there any evidence for it? Or is this just one more faith-based belief you have developed?

All lifeforms have microtubules in various stages of evolution.

What are the "stages" of evolution?

All forms of biological cellular learning and memories involve microtubules.

Not as far as I'm aware. Nothing you have written supports that claim, for instance.

This is why I see them as the seat of evolving consciousness from bacteria to humans.

Can you understand that I want more than just statements of your faith-based beliefs? I want you to convince me using evidence.

 

[Write4U]

Write4U said: ↑
Quantum events result in a natural selection (stochastic choice).

Unfortunately, you haven't even attempted to support that bold claim.

Can you offer a counterfactual?

You're not using the term "natural selection" in the standard sense in which it is used in biology. If you have to redefine terms to support your argument, it could be that your argument is in deep trouble.

You are restricting yourself to Darwinian evolution of biological species. Why should natural selection be restricted to that narrow view?
According to Robert Hazen, chemistry and mineralogy is subject to natural selective processes as well as a form of Darwinian evolution. Note that mineralogy also uses the term species.

In his lecture at Carnegie Institute if Science, Hazen specifically uses the term Darwinian evolution when explaining the survival of certain stable mineral patterns over other more fragile structures.

How is this relevant to the topic of consciousness in quantum processes in microtubules?

Because it is relevant to all evolutionary processes where greater complexity yields more sophisticated emergent qualities.

Abiogenesis was/is an evolutionary product of natural selection.

Another unsupported claim from you. A faith-based statement.

Counterfactual?

I think you'll find that there's no disagreement among biologists as to whether termites evolved, just like every other living thing on Earth.

Will they disagree that termite mounds are evolved structures?

Did the plants write down the sequence? How is this relevant to what I put to you?

Let's see what you put to me.

James R said: Last time I checked, there were no mathematical functions that exist independently of humans. We're the ones who write down functions and maths. Nobody else does it, as far as we know so far.

Let's unpack your statement. There are two assumptions :
1. There are no mathematical functions that exist independent of humans.
This is completely false. Several fundamental mathematical functions are axiomatic and observable in nature. We call them natural Constants.
You are anthropomorphizing natural logical processes that exist independent of humans altogether

2. Humans are able to observe these logical processes and write down symbolized languages and maths.
OK, and that proves absolutely nothing in relation to the natural function of ;
Input --> Function --> Output, that exists independent of humans altogether.
Symbolizing and writing something down is a result of observation of natural processes. It proves these processes, not falsify them.
You are anthropomorphizing natural processes that exist independent of humans altogether.

"Shape memory" is nothing like human memory. Or, more accurately, it is only remotely like it, if we use an analogy. Like I said before.

You keep insisting that humans have unnatural abilities which cannot be found elsewhere in the universe. I would call that a "faith-based belief system".
What exactly does "remotely like it mean"? It has or it does not have a form of memory of a prior state of rest?
We use physical shape-memory alloys for many applications.

Abstract

Application spectrum of shape memory alloys (SMA) is expanding rapidly and proportionately so is the engineering demand for superior materials. An essential prerequisite to developing novel SMAs is a clear perception of the deformation physics underlying their extraordinary shape recoverability.

To that end, modern atomistic simulation tools have proffered state-of-the-art models, which usher in new clarifications for SMA deformation properties. It was found, for example, that ab initio energy pathways are at the core of dictating the extent of shear and shuffle for both phase transformation and variant formation at atomic lengthscale.

These important revelations are accomplished by addressing inherent solid-state effects, which underpin the natural tendency to seek the energetic ground state.

Moreover, empirical potential based models, benefitting from ab initio calculations, have allowed an atomic-resolution view into the phase evolution and the concurrent twinning phenomena relating directly to constitutive properties. Here, we revisit salient examples of these cutting-edge theoretical discoveries regarding SMA deformation along with discussions on pertinent experimental evidences.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0079642517300336

W4U said; Pyramidal microtubule patterns are the brain's memory storage facilities in all living things and are even functional in the flagella of the single-celled paramecium.

Unfortunately, you haven't even attempted to support that bold claim.

Yes I have with copious links to formal papers, by hundreds of scientists. You just refuse to read them.

Thank you for the introduction. How is this mathematical concept relevant to the topic of consciousness in quantum processes in microtubules?

You are welcome.
Note that "pyramidal cells" consist of microtubule arrays, i.e. MT pattern densities . (see post #2112).

How would we do that? This is entirely your own, novel, idea, right? It strikes me as totally undeveloped as any sort of hypothesis that we could test, especially since your definition of what a "value density pattern" is remains, at this point, quite obscure.

I gave you a simple example of surface tension as a result of an H2O molecular density pattern. The universe is full of them.

How are these topics relevant to the topic of consciousness in quantum processes in microtubules?

Wait, they were direct answers to your questions . Were your questions relevant to the topic?

Nope. You have made no convincing link between such models and the topic of the thread.

And what would satisfy your concept of convincing links of such models to the topic? I cannot anticipate your questions. You will have to ask them before I can answer them.

Please give me one or two specific examples of a "value" and a "value set". Explain to me how those form a "symbolic description", and what "inherence properties" they describe.

Thanks, that's easy.
Fundamental elementary particles are quanta of "values". Atoms are sets of value quanta, each with specific property values such as density, mass and weight. The Table of elements is a comprehensive set of atomic values.
Don't anthropomorphize. Look at these properties from an objective perspective.

What's the "value set" of a rock, for example? Does it have one? Show me the symbolic description.

Hazen cites about 6000 minerals with specific values and symbolic descriptions. He even discovered a new mineral which is named after him; Hazenite and has its own unique values and properties, including the symbolic description that it is a bacterial excrement, which prompted a friend to observe that "Hazenite happens"....

Have you considered that things may "seem" that way to you because you're so desperate to belief in your fantasy of the mathematical universe? Could it be confirmation bias - you're seeing what you want to see?

No, I arrive at my conclusions from what real scientists have observed. If they are biased I leave for you to judge.

You're confusing the map for the territory again. I can understand how one might describe the "point density set" of a molecular lattice, say, but that does nothing to establish that the lattice is a point density set. It would be exactly the same if I drew a map of the United States and then made the silly claim that the map is the United States. See the problem?

I know what a map is.
So you are declaring that all of science is merely mapping and making silly claims that the maps are the things they symbolize?

The definition of symbolization is ;
1: an authoritative summary of faith or doctrine : CREED
2: something that stands for or suggests something else by reason of relationship, association, convention, or accidental resemblance especially : a visible sign of something invisible the lion is a symbol of courage.
3: an arbitrary or conventional sign used in writing or printing relating to a particular field to represent operations, quantities, elements, relations, or qualities

No 1 can be used to argue that science is a summary of faith or doctrine: a CREED, no?

continued........

 

[Write4U]

........continued

The terms "regularity" and "pattern" are almost tautological, so no surprises there.

And that makes it less important? Why does my saying it make it less valuable?

W4U said; Patterns already begin to form in Chaos and become expressed as physical regularities

That's just a faith-based belief of yours, again. You have done nothing to show that patterns begin to form in chaos, let alone come anywhere close to establishing that patterns can somehow take on a physical reality when they didn't have one before.

No, that is Chaos Theory!

Your use of language there is instructive. Notice how you slipped, without even noticing it?
You wrote "Electro-magnetic waves have ... patterns". I don't disagree. But just before that, you wrote that "objects are patterns".

Yes, I slipped. I should have said; "Electro-magnetic waves have intrinsic patterns".

Do you see that your statement about electromagnetic waves does nothing to support your claim about objects? It's not even an example of something being a pattern.

I'll agree conditionally. After all waves are not objects. Of course both are expressions of patterned behavior and/or construction. Crystals anyone?

But how does any of this relate to the thread topic?

I support Tegmark's proposition that "consciousness is an emergent excellence of certain complex neural patterns".

W4U said; I believe that Abiogenesis occurred with the self-assembly of the first microtubular polymer.

Why do you believe that? Is there any evidence for it? Or is this just one more faith-based belief you have developed?

Yes, MT networks have emergent consciousness in direct relationship to neural development. And No, this is not faith based anymore but falsified fact. Microtubule damage (catastrophe) in the brain results in loss of brain function and consciousness. This has been proven to be responsible for the gradual onset of Alzheimer's disease and loss of memory. Microtubule catastrophe results in loss of photosynthesis in plants and loss of sensory responses in all other Eukaryotic organisms.

What are the "stages" of evolution?

Gradual acquisition and formation of complex functional adaptions to the environment via stochastic natural selection properties conducive to survivability.

W4U said; All forms of biological cellular learning and memories involve microtubules.

Not as far as I'm aware. Nothing you have written supports that claim, for instance.

Oh yes I have, accompanied by copious quotes and links to serious research and "known science".

Pyramidal neurons

Epilepsy, due to excessive neuronal excitation, is particularly common in brain regions containing many interconnected pyramidal neurons, such as the hippocampus. Some neurodegenerative disorders, including Alzheimer’s disease, disproportionately kill pyramidal neurons, leading to characteristic cognitive changes. Thus, pyramidal neurons are the building blocks for high-level functions like memory and consciousness. When they misbehave, the consequences can be profound.

(post #2113)

W4U said; I believe that Abiogenesis occurred with the self-assembly of the first microtubular polymer.

Why do you believe that? Is there any evidence for it? Or is this just one more faith-based belief you have developed?

Yes, MT networks have emergent consciousness in direct relationship to neural development. And No, this is not faith based anymore but falsified fact. Microtubule damage (catastrophe) in the brain results in loss of brain function and consciousness. This has been proven to be responsible for the gradual onset of Alzheimer's disease. Microtubule catastrophe results in loss of photosynthesis in plants and loss of sensory responses in all other Eukaryotic organisms.

What are the "stages" of evolution?

Gradual formation of complex adaptions to the environment via stochastic natural selection for survivability.

W4U said; All forms of biological cellular learning and memories involve microtubules.

Not as far as I'm aware. Nothing you have written supports that claim, for instance.

Oh yes I have, accompanied by copious quotes and links to serious research and "known science".

Pyramidal neurons

Epilepsy, due to excessive neuronal excitation, is particularly common in brain regions containing many interconnected pyramidal neurons, such as the hippocampus. Some neurodegenerative disorders, including Alzheimer’s disease, disproportionately kill pyramidal neurons, leading to characteristic cognitive changes. Thus, pyramidal neurons are the building blocks for high-level functions like memory and consciousness. When they misbehave, the consequences can be profound.

(post #2113)

What is a pyramidal neuron? A common class of neuron found in the cerebral cortex of virtually every mammal, as well as in birds, fish and reptiles. Pyramidal neurons are also common in subcortical structures such as the hippocampus and the amygdala. They are named for their shape: typically they have a soma (cell body) that is shaped like a teardrop or rounded pyramid. They also tend to have a conical spray of longer dendrites that emerge from the pointy end of the soma (apical dendrites) and a cluster of shorter dendrites that emerge from the rounded end (basal dendrites) (Figure 1).


Figure 1. Dendritic morphologies of typical pyramidal neurons in different brain regions. (A) Layer 5 pyramidal neuron in the rat somatosensory cortex (courtesy of Maarten Kole). (B) Pyramidal neuron in area CA3 of the rat hippocampus (reproduced with permission from Gonzales et al. (2001).) (C) Layer 2 pyramidal neuron in the primary olfactory cortex of the mouse (unpublished work of Norimitsu Suzuki and myself).

https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(11)01198-5.pdf

Note that pyramidal neurons consist of patterned microtubule densities.

Can you understand that I want more than just statements of your faith-based beliefs? I want you to convince me using evidence.

What more do you want from me? Can you prove to me that you are not a GPT3?

 

[Write4U]

W4U said; I believe that Abiogenesis occurred with the self-assembly of the first microtubular polymer.

Why do you believe that? Is there any evidence for it? Or is this just one more faith-based belief you have developed?

I guess, this warrants more clarity.

Exhibit 1: all living organisms have variations of microtubular organelles.

The Dendrites

Dendrites are appendages that are designed to receive communications from other cells. They resemble a tree-like structure, forming projections that become stimulated by other neurons and conduct the electrochemical charge to the cell body (or, more rarely, directly to the axons). The surface of the dendrites is filled with receptors that become enacted upon by neurotransmitters that traversed the synapse after the pre-synaptic neuron fired and released neurotransmitters into the synapse.

Dendrites integrate this stimulation (from a multitude of receptors) and play a crucial role in determining the extent to which the received stimulation will result in an action potential. Although dendrites have traditionally been regarded as receivers of the neurotransmission, recent research has found that dendrites can also release neurotransmitters into the synapse (Stuart et al., 2008). This new data adds to our understanding of the incredible complexity of neuronal transmission.

Dendritic Development
C. Lohmann, in Cellular Migration and Formation of Neuronal Connections, 2013

11.1 Introduction

Dendrites are highly complex, often beautiful structures that are very characteristic for different types of neurons. Functionally, dendrites are the information-receiving structures of nerve cells.

Therefore, the development of dendritic structure determines the information that can be integrated by a neuron in the mature network. The direction of dendritic growth, for example, determines dendrite orientation in the mature system and frequently constrains the modality of inputs (Figure 11.1). The extension of a neuron's dendrites limits the range of information it receives and dendritic branching the sampling density and thus the degree of convergence of synaptic inputs (Hume and Purves, 1981).

Besides receiving information, dendrites integrate and compute information, and these functions are shaped as well by dendritic structure. For example, the geometry of dendrites in the vertebrate auditory system appears to facilitate coincidence detection and thus optimizes the system's ability for sound localization (Agmon-Snir et al., 1998). Furthermore, dendritic spines isolate individual synapses biochemically from each other and, therefore, enable linear integration of multiple synaptic inputs and plasticity with single synapse specificity.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/dendrite#

Of course this does not explain the actual structure of dendrites and here is where microtubules enter the stage.

Microtubule control of functional architecture in neurons
Author links open overlay panel Michael TKelliher12Harriet AJSaunders12JillWildonger2

Microtubules in signal-receiving dendrites and signal-sending axons differ in their organization and microtubule-associated proteins. These differences, coupled with microtubule post-translational modifications, combine to locally regulate intracellular transport, morphology, and function.

Recent discoveries provide new insight into the regulation of non-centrosomal microtubule arrays in neurons, the relationship between microtubule acetylation and mechanosensation, and the spatial patterning of microtubules that regulates motor activity and cargo delivery in axons and dendrites. Together, these new studies bring us closer to understanding how microtubule function is locally tuned to match the specialized tasks associated with signal reception and transmission.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959438818302745#

And that sets inanimate objects apart from animate organisms. I am not restraint by scientific modesty and I predict that when all the data is in, microtubule self-assembly and functionality is what caused the earliest abiogenetic changes and the formation of rudimentary neurons.
Of particular importance is the fact that microtubules are the primary control organelle responsible for mitosis, genetic cell division.

Abiogenesis

In evolutionary biology, abiogenesis, or informally the origin of life (OoL),[3][4][5][a] is the natural process by which life has arisen from non-living matter, such as simple organic compounds.[6][4][7][8] While the details of this process are still unknown, the prevailing scientific hypothesis is that the transition from non-living to living entities was not a single event, but an evolutionary process of increasing complexity that involved molecular self-replication, self-assembly, autocatalysis, and the emergence of cell membranes.[9][10][11]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

And copying is what microtubules do best. (see mitotic spindle)

Mitosis and Meiosis Part B
Norbert Lindow, ... Steffen Prohaska, in Methods in Cell Biology, 2018

Abstract

Mitotic and meiotic spindles are microtubule-based structures to faithfully segregate chromosomes. Electron tomography is currently the method of choice to analyze the three-dimensional (3D) architecture of both types of spindles.

Over the years, we have developed methods and software for automatic segmentation and stitching of microtubules in serial sections for large-scale reconstructions. 3D reconstruction of microtubules, however, is only the first step toward biological insight.

The second step is the analysis of the structural data to derive measurable spindle properties. Here, we present a comprehensive set of techniques to quantify spindle parameters. These techniques provide quantitative analyses of specific microtubule classes and are applicable to a variety of tomographic reconstructions of spindles from different organisms.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/mitosis-spindle#

 

[Write4U]

In furtherance of the possible role of microtubules in Abiogenetic process may be supported by their presence in Prokaryotes

Lo and behold: Evidence of microtubules in Prokaryotes.

Do prokaryotes contain microtubules?
D Bermudes, G Hinkle, and L Margulis

Abstract

In eukaryotic cells, microtubules are 24-nm-diameter tubular structures composed of a class of conserved proteins called tubulin. They are involved in numerous cell functions including ciliary motility, nerve cell elongation, pigment migration, centrosome formation, and chromosome movement. Although cytoplasmic tubules and fibers have been observed in bacteria, some with diameters similar to those of eukaryotes, no homologies to eukaryotic microtubules have been established.

Certain groups of bacteria including azotobacters, cyanobacteria, enteric bacteria, and spirochetes have been frequently observed to possess microtubule-like structures, and others, including archaebacteria, have been shown to be sensitive to drugs that inhibit the polymerization of microtubules.

Although little biochemical or molecular biological information is available, the differences observed among these prokaryotic structures suggest that their composition generally differs among themselves as well as from that of eukaryotes. We review the distribution of cytoplasmic tubules in prokaryotes, even though, in all cases, their functions remain unknown.

At least some tend to occur in cells that are large, elongate, and motile, suggesting that they may be involved in cytoskeletal functions, intracellular motility, or transport activities comparable to those performed by eukaryotic microtubules. In Escherichia coli, the FtsZ protein is associated with the formation of a ring in the division zone between the newly forming offspring cells. Like tubulin, FtsZ is a GTPase and shares with tubulin a 7-amino-acid motif, making it a promising candidate in which to seek the origin of tubulins.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC372974/

The presence of microtubules in the very earliest living organisms suggests that microtubules were instrumental in the gradual evolution of abiogenetic processes.

Their known functions and abilities make them primary candidates for being causal to the gradual acquisition of attributes considered to be associated with "living organisms, like mitosis of cellular structures facilitating motility, circulation, digestion, respiration, ventilation.

 

[Write4U]

In furtherance of Abiogenic processes involving microtubules.

The first organism to use oxygen may have appeared surprisingly early

Genetic evidence suggests microbes began to use oxygen about 3.1 billion years ago, long before the precious gas was plentiful
The first organisms to "breathe" oxygen—or at least use it—appeared 3.1 billion years ago, according to a new genetic analysis of dozens of families of microbes. The find is surprising because the Great Oxidation Event, which filled Earth's atmosphere with the precious gas, didn't occur until some 500 million years later.

"I was pretty thrilled to see this paper," says Patrick Shih, an evolutionary biologist at the University of California (UC), Davis. The advent of proteins that can use oxygen, Shih and others say, marks a key step in the emergence of aerobic microbes, which are those able to harness oxygen. "The transition from a world that was mostly anaerobic to one that was mostly aerobic was one of the major innovations in life," says Tim Lyons, a biogeochemist at UC Riverside.

Scientists broadly agree that Earth's early atmosphere and oceans were all but devoid of oxygen gas. But there are signs that there was some oxygen around. Geochemists, for example, have found mineral deposits dated to about 3 billion years ago that they argue could only have formed in the presence of oxygen. And some evidence suggests cyanobacteria, the earliest photosynthetic organisms to release oxygen gas as a waste product—although not use it—may have arisen as early as 3.5 billion years ago.

Yet critics have countered that if oxygen producers and users came along that early, they would have spread quickly across the globe. That's because using oxygen provides organisms more energy when they metabolize their food. But the Great Oxidation Event didn't occur until 2.4 billion years ago.

In the new study, Dan Tawfik, a biological chemist at the Weizmann Institute of Science, and his Ph.D. student Jagoda Jabłońska, decided to come at the problem from a different direction. They analyzed the genomes of 130 families of prokaryotes, the living descendants of what are considered Earth's earliest microbes, bacteria, and archaea. Tawfik and Jabłońska created an evolutionary family tree using the genes for some 700 enzymes that either use or generate oxygen. Then, they turned to a long-used approach that tracks the likely mutation rate of proteins to construct a "molecular clock." The clock enabled them to pin down when each of these enzymes likely evolved. Of the 130 families of organisms they studied, Jabłońska and Tawfik were able to date 36 with high confidence.

"We saw something quite striking," Tawfik says: a "clear burst" of microbes using oxygen between 3 billion and 3.1 billion years ago. Twenty-two of the 36 families appear to have emerged at that time, while 12 came later, and only two seemed to come before, the team reports today in Nature Ecology & Evolution.

Overall, the analysis suggests that about 3.1 billion years ago, an organism they dub the last universal oxygen ancestor emerged, Tawfik says.

That ancestor in turn gave rise to aerobes that were able to take advantage of the increased energy output that oxygen use enabled. Eventually, this led to multicellular organisms, animals, and us.

If that transition did occur about 3 billion years ago, it suggests oxygen-using organisms didn't immediately sweep across the planet. Rather, the ability to use oxygen likely evolved in small pockets that slowly spread over hundreds of millions of years. And only when they became abundant enough did these organisms modify Earth's environment enough to produce enough oxygen to lead to the Great Oxidation Event. "I feel like an archaeologist that is opening a grave for the first time," Tawfik says.

Still, Shih and others caution that molecular clock dating is still an evolving science, and thus the team's dating could be off. "The order of events is almost certainly robust," says Roger Buick, an astrobiologist at the University of Washington, Seattle. "But the timing of the events may not be."
*Correction, 17 May, 5:05 p.m.: The sentence about oxygen use, food, and energy has been reworded to improve its accuracy.

https://www.science.org/news/2021/02/first-organism-use-oxygen-may-have-appeared-surprisingly-early#

 

[James R]

Write4U:

In reponse to my last post, it looks like you have mostly posted a new wall of irrelevant spam, which is exactly the kind of thing I was trying to address, in part, in my previous post.

I'm going to ignore a lot of it, and focus in a few points, if you don't mind.

Quantum events result in a natural selection (stochastic choice).
....
Can you offer a counterfactual?

Do you know what a counterfactual is?

(n.) expressing what has not happened but could, would, or might under differing conditions. A conditional statement in which the first clause is a past tense subjunctive statement expressing something contrary to fact, as in contrary to the facts of an event, situation, etc. a counterfactual idea, assumption, or argument.
​

What you're asking me, I think, has nothing to do with counterfactuals. You're saying to me "prove me wrong!" But it's not my job to prove you wrong. It's your claim. You need to prove that it is correct.

In this particular case, that's going to be hard, because the claim itself doesn't make a lot of sense, as written. If I were you, I'd just drop this silly claim and move on to something you might actually have some hope of supporting - something that actually uses language in a way that scientists normally use it would be a good start.

You are restricting yourself to Darwinian evolution of biological species.

Is it important to your arguments about microtubules that they operate according to a completely new kind of "Darwinian evolution", then?

According to Robert Hazen, chemistry and mineralogy is subject to natural selective processes as well as a form of Darwinian evolution.

Good for Robert Hazen! Who is he? And so what?

Note that mineralogy also uses the term species.

I'm willing to bet that it doesn't use the term in the same way that biology does.

In his lecture at Carnegie Institute if Science, Hazen specifically uses the term Darwinian evolution when explaining the survival of certain stable mineral patterns over other more fragile structures.

Great! So what?

Abiogenesis was/is an evolutionary product of natural selection.
....
Counterfactual?

Again, it's your claim. It's up to you to support/prove it. Not up to me to debunk it. Do your own homework; don't expect me to do it for you.

Will they disagree that termite mounds are evolved structures?

Termite mounds require termites, or they wouldn't exist. The mounds are structures made by termites. If you want to stretch language to try to assign a feature of the termites to the mounds that they make, I guess you're free to do that, but it doesn't really help to advance any argument you're making about microtubules and consciousness.

Let's see what you put to me. Let's unpack your statement. There are two assumptions :
1. There are no mathematical functions that exist independent of humans.
This is completely false. Several fundamental mathematical functions are axiomatic and observable in nature. We call them natural Constants.
You are anthropomorphizing natural logical processes that exist independent of humans altogether

An axiom is an assumption that somebody makes - typically a human being. Without a human being, it seems there are no axioms.

You claim that functions are observable in nature. That implies somebody doing the observing - typically a human being. Without a human being, it seems there are no observations of functions in nature.

Constants are mathematical abstractions that always have a particular numerical value. The particular values they have typically depend on a system of units being establish, which implies somebody setting up a system of units - typically a human being. Without a human being, it seems there are no natural constants.

2. Humans are able to observe these logical processes and write down symbolized languages and maths.
OK, and that proves absolutely nothing in relation to the natural function of ;
Input --> Function --> Output, that exists independent of humans altogether.

You're begging the question (assuming what you need to prove). That's the second time, by the way; you also did it in 1, above.

You claim that functions and "natural logical processes" exist "independent of humans altogether" (my emphasis). You are yet to provide any argument, evidence or proof of your claim. That is why I call it a faith-based belief that you have.

If you really believe it, why don't you start by giving me an example of a piece of mathematics that exists independent of humans altogether? Be sure to explain how you know it exists independent of humans.

The particular issue you will face, I think, is that all mathematics is conceptual. Maths exists in somebody's mind. Functions are ideas. Constants are concepts. Without a brain to hold the concepts in mind, how can they possibly be said to exist?

You are anthropomorphizing natural processes that exist independent of humans altogether.

Prove it.

You keep insisting that humans have unnatural abilities which cannot be found elsewhere in the universe.

I keep doing that, do I? Where have I insisted on any such thing? Can you point to one thing I have wrote, insisting on that?