Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[Write4U]

I took the liberty to answer that question in the thread on "the problems of Self-Referential systems"

 

[river]

I took the liberty to answer that question in the thread on "the problems of Self-Referential systems"

Your answer .....is ?

 

[Write4U]

Your answer .....is ?

The problem of Self-Referential systems
Post #23

 

[river]

Quote it Write4U , here .

 

[Write4U]

Quote it Write4U , here .

No. It's off-topic.

 

[river]

No. It's off-topic.

Fine then put it in my thread . In Free Thoughts .

 

[Write4U]

Fine then put it in my thread . In Free Thoughts .

Ask the question in your thread, I'll be happy to answer it there.
I am only trying to follow admin directions to keep posts on-topic as much as possible.

 

[river]

Ask the question in your thread, I'll be happy to answer it there.
I am only trying to follow admin directions to keep posts on-topic as much as possible.

Meaning ......

 

[Write4U]

Meaning ......

C'mon.....

 

[Write4U]

This is relevant.

And confirms my initial intuitive logical analysis.

This is very exciting stuff.

 

[Write4U]

Summary

The cytoskeleton of Trichoplax adhaerens fiber cells was studied after chemical fixation, freeze-substitution, lysis of attached cells with nonionic detergents and by immunofluorescence. Cytoskeletal elements present in the cell bodies and reaching into the extensions include microtubules, intermediate filaments, 6–7 nm and 2–3 nm microfilaments.

The latter seem to interconnect other cytoskeletal elements. Actin-like microfilaments are found both as networks and parallel strands. Immunofluorescence with antiactin shows the presence of actin in the cell body, underneath the plasmalemma and within the extensions.

Both the results of immunofluorescence and the identification of 6–7 nm actin-like microfilaments support the concept of contractility of the fiber cells as the cause of the rapid shape changes of Trichoplax. Anti-tubulin fluorescence corresponds to the location of microtubules in the extensions as well as the cell bodies of the fiber cells. The extensions are withdrawn upon depolymerization of the microtubules by colchicine.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00312114

 

[Write4U]

Evolution of cytoskeleton and consciousness

In a recently published Cambridge declaration, a group of prominent scientists formally declared that consciousness likely emerged very early in evolutionary terms, and those processes that support consciousness in humans are likely a characteristic of many living creatures (Low,2012).

Unicellular eukaryotic ancestors of organisms like amoeba and paramecia perform complex adaptive movements and demonstrate purposeful conscious behaviour by a complete utilization of the cytoskeleton. Some studies have also shown that an organism like paramecium demonstrates the capability of learning through repetitive conscious behaviour (Gelber, 1958). Amoeba also searches its food by moving on pseudopods toward its prey that they eventually surround, engulf and digest. Several types of algae are so versatile and are known to change the process of how they obtain food-based on available sunlight which they sense through a photoreceptor at one end of the cell. If the light is too bright, they will swim away toward more suitable lighting conditions (Mitchell and Staretz,2011).

Consciousness in the human brain is ultra-fast, and consists of discrete events at varying frequencies that have been recorded through modern science via gamma synchrony electro-encephalography (EEG). Synaptic transmission and axonal transfer of nerve impulses are too slow to organize coordinated activity in large areas of the central nervous system. The transmission of nerve impulses along an axon is relatively slow and cannot explain conscious events that happen at ultra-fast speeds by means of the neural network in the human brain (Reinis et al., 2005).

Several theorists have therefore proposed quantum-based theories to explain consciousness e.g., the holonomic brain theory of Karl Pribram and David Bohm (Pribram, 1982)and the Orch-OR theory formulated by Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose (Hameroff and Penrose, 2014).

These theories correlate quantum processes in relation to known physiological functions of biological organelles such as the cytoskeleton. Cytoskeleton evolution holds the secret to propagation and origination of consciousness, which cannot be defined, but exists, in every individual biological cell.

https://www.academia.edu/25505439/C...onary_Based_Review?email_work_card=view-paper

 

[Write4U]

This is an update of mitotic processes.

 

[Write4U]

An interesting question; Do plants possess intelligence?

Darwin and other scientists thought so.

So let's assume for a moment that brainless plants do have a bio-chemical sensory awareness of their environment. What would give plants this ability?

In context of this thread; Might microtubules have a role to play in plant intelligence?

Are there microtubules in plant cells?

The self-organization of plant microtubules inside the cell volume yields their cortical localization, stable alignment, and sensitivity to external cues

In plants, microtubules form superstructures before (the preprophase band), during (the spindle) and after (the phragmoplast) cell division. Plant microtubules also form dense and organized arrays at the periphery of the cell during interphase [1] and these arrays are known as cortical microtubules (CMTs).20 Feb 2018

https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1006011

 

[Write4U]

From the above site.

The microtubule network is a typical example of a self-organizing system, where properties of individual elements and their interactions induce specific and sometimes counter-intuitive global properties. To predict how regulation at the level of each microtubule can give rise to specific global outcomes, one can resort to computational models. Modeling approaches have been developed, simplifying microtubule interactions by restricting them to the plasma membrane, i.e. a simpler 2D space [40, 46].

In those agent-based models, several microtubule properties were coded and interactions between CMTs, based on these properties, were simulated. The outcome is an emergent network, whose characteristics can be analyzed. For instance, increased microtubule severing was predicted to generate a larger number of free microtubules, more amenable to bundle into aligned arrays [9, 42] and this was observed in experiments [47].

https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1006011#sec010

In view of the fact that most vertical plants branch out in accordance with the Fibonacci sequence, is it reasonable to ask if microtubules behave in accordance with natural mathematical guiding principles?

 

[river]

From the above site.

https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1006011#sec010

In view of the fact that most vertical plants branch out in accordance with the Fibonacci sequence, is it reasonable to ask if microtubules behave in accordance with natural mathematical guiding principles?

No .

The guiding principles are always physically based . Why ? Is the question then . And not mathematics .

Because without mathematics the physical still exists . However ; Without the physical , mathematics can not exist . I've said this before .

Highlighted

An ; Absolute Truth .

 

[Write4U]

An ; Absolute Truth

You speak of the explicate only and completely neglect the Implicate of what will become expressed
Make no mistake about it, Atheists don’t need a God to be in awe of the majesty of the universe. I just don’t think all this needs a motivated Agency.

Evolution has proven to apply to everything, not just to living things but to all natural self-organizing patterns.
Wanna see self-organizing patterns? The mathematical geometry of nature?

Mathematics is not the language of Humans. It is the language of Universal Logic, an abstract guiding equation that can be described and organized via symbolic mathematics such as human maths.

The manifestation of potential Higgs bosons was only mathematically predicted. There existed no record of ever having observed a Higgs boson.

In Cern it was the “applied mathematics” of controlling certain natural forces to spontaneously create the form of a Higgs boson pattern at very small scales.

It took the Collider, but by setting all the controls in a certain mathematical pattern, the Higgs boson, would appear and show us it’s naturally self-forming pattern.

When we speak of “cell-memory”. is this the ability of cells to produce extremely small patterns , which may occasionally happen or at every instant in time, if we look deep enough.

Existence is a pattern, a chronology of patterns, from the extremely subtle (abstract Implicated form) to gross expression in (Explicated form) as Reality (David Bohm).

Reality consists of sets of patterns with various value densities, starting with fractals and showing up in all naturally self-forming universal geometries such as atoms and spiral galaxies.

Wave functions shape the geometric arrangement and expressed (observable form) of complex patterns of size and density.

Watch: How Sacred Geometry is embedded in Your DNA - Secrets of Geometric Art -

Interesting why you of all people should be so materialistic.

 

[river]

You speak of the explicate only and completely neglect the Implicate of what will become expressed
Make no mistake about it, Atheists don’t need a God to be in awe of the majesty of the universe. I just don’t think all this needs a motivated Agency.

Evolution has proven to apply to everything, not just to living things but to all natural self-organizing patterns.
Wanna see self-organizing patterns? The mathematical geometry of nature?

Mathematics is not the language of Humans. It is the language of Universal Logic, an abstract guiding equation that can be described and organized via symbolic mathematics such as human maths.

The manifestation of potential Higgs bosons was only mathematically predicted. There existed no record of ever having observed a Higgs boson.

In Cern it was the “applied mathematics” of controlling certain natural forces to spontaneously create the form of a Higgs boson pattern at very small scales.

It took the Collider, but by setting all the controls in a certain mathematical pattern, the Higgs boson, would appear and show us it’s naturally self-forming pattern.

When we speak of “cell-memory”. is this the ability of cells to produce extremely small patterns , which may occasionally happen or at every instant in time, if we look deep enough.

Existence is a pattern, a chronology of patterns, from the extremely subtle (abstract Implicated form) to gross expression in (Explicated form) as Reality (David Bohm).

Reality consists of sets of patterns with various value densities, starting with fractals and showing up in all naturally self-forming universal geometries such as atoms and spiral galaxies.

Wave functions shape the geometric arrangement and expressed (observable form) of complex patterns of size and density.

Watch: How Sacred Geometry is embedded in Your DNA - Secrets of Geometric Art -

Interesting why you of all people should be so materialistic.

Highlighted

Because the Universe is Material . Galaxies , Quasars , Stars , planets etc . Are material . Three dimensionally . Depth .

Life , is different . Life forms evolve an intellect . The periodic table doesn't .

 

[Write4U]

Because the Universe is Material . Galaxies , Quasars , Stars , planets etc . Are material . Three dimensionally . Depth .

Life , is different . Life forms evolve an intellect . The periodic table doesn't .

All that is only what you think it is. You are constructing that reality from within your mind. The actual reality is so much more than we perceive that if we could see all of reality our brains would go instantly mad.

Watch this interesting lecture:

and a more in-depth discussion by a panel of respected scientists of their own relationship to the subject.

 

[Write4U]

Some additional knowledge.

Ran across this article.

How Computationally Complex Is a Single Neuron?

The most basic analogy between artificial and real neurons involves how they handle incoming information. Both kinds of neurons receive incoming signals and, based on that information, decide whether to send their own signal to other neurons. While artificial neurons rely on a simple calculation to make this decision, decades of research have shown that the process is far more complicated in biological neurons.

Computational neuroscientists use an input-output function to model the relationship between the inputs received by a biological neuron’s long treelike branches, called dendrites, and the neuron’s decision to send out a signal.

This function is what the authors of the new work taught an artificial deep neural network to imitate in order to determine its complexity. They started by creating a massive simulation of the input-output function of a type of neuron with distinct trees of dendritic branches at its top and bottom, known as a pyramidal neuron, from a rat’s cortex.

Then they fed the simulation into a deep neural network that had up to 256 artificial neurons in each layer. They continued increasing the number of layers until they achieved 99% accuracy at the millisecond level between the input and output of the simulated neuron. The deep neural network successfully predicted the behavior of the neuron’s input-output function with at least five — but no more than eight — artificial layers. **In most of the networks, that equated to about 1,000 artificial neurons for just one biological neuron.**

https://d2r55xnwy6nx47.cloudfront.net/uploads/2021/09/Dendrites_v1-HB.mp4

Neuroscientists now know that the computational complexity of a single neuron, like the pyramidal neuron at left, relies on the dendritic treelike branches, which are bombarded with incoming signals. These result in local voltage changes, represented by the neuron’s changing colors (red means high voltage, blue means low voltage) before the neuron decides whether to send its own signal called a “spike.” This one spikes three times, as shown by the traces of individual branches on the right, where the colors represent locations of the dendrites from top (red) to bottom (blue).

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-computationally-complex-is-a-single-neuron-20210902/

What is missing from this informative article is that it is "microtubules" in the biological neuron that process and transmit all that data and orchestrate the information into a conscious experience.