Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

[river]

Nature Portfolio

Microtubules

Latest Research and Reviews

• Reviews | 22 June 2021

....... much more.....

https://www.nature.com/subjects/microtubules

Good stuff Write4U . The more current the better . But are there others that think different on the same information ?

 

[Write4U]

Good stuff Write4U . The more current the better . But are there others that think different on the same information ?

Yes, there are several interpretation attempting to answer the "hard question" when we don't know how to approach that question. I like Tegmark's approach of following the "hard facts".
And IMO, one of the hard facts is that MT are critically involved in electro-chemical "information processing", that is a proven "hard fact" and if there is no identifiable alternative processing system, there is in my mind no question as to what direction our research should follow.

Every one always cites that "the map is not the terrain" but then try to come up with "models" (maps) of the terrain instead of just walking down the terrain, which we can now do with our incredibly sensitive instruments such as demonstrated in the actual MT research. We are no longer measuring the terrain in millimeters but in nanometers, down to where the electro-chemical information exchanges take place. I have no doubt that this will eventually lead to sufficient information to solve the general question of generation and storage of thoughts and how it is that we can be self-conscious of these processes, instead of an purely autonomous data processing such as in homeostasis in organisms with simpler neural networks, all of which employ MT in these processes as far back as we can see! The three types of MT (and related filaments) are truly fundamental to the evolution of sensory data transportation and their processing abilities in the brain.

Three major types of filaments make up the cytoskeleton: actin filaments, microtubules, and intermediate filaments.

There are three main subgroups of microtubules: the polar microtubules (those extending across the cell, as in from centrosome to centrosome), the astral microtubules (those that anchor the spindle poles to the cell membrane), and the kinetochore microtubules (those that extend from the centrosome to the kinetochore ...Feb 26, 2021

https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/microtubule

I like the direction of research of fundamental hierarchical sensory evolution from response to brute kinetic forces to volitional responses to electro-chemical sensory information as translated by the neural network and the brain. The "hard facts".

 

[river]

Yes, there are several interpretation attempting to answer the "hard question" when we don't know how to approach that question. I like Tegmark's approach of following the "hard facts".
And IMO, one of the hard facts is that MT are critically involved in electro-chemical "information processing", that is a proven "hard fact" and if there is no identifiable alternative processing system, there is in my mind no question as to what direction our research should follow.

Every one always cites that "the map is not the terrain" but then try to come up with "models" (maps) of the terrain instead of just walking down the terrain, which we can now do with our incredibly sensitive instruments such as demonstrated in the actual MT research. We are no longer measuring the terrain in millimeters but in nanometers, down to where the electro-chemical information exchanges take place. I have no doubt that this will eventually lead to sufficient information to solve the general question of generation and storage of thoughts and how it is that we can be self-conscious of these processes, instead of an purely autonomous data processing such as in homeostasis in organisms with simpler neural networks, all of which employ MT in these processes as far back as we can see! The three types of MT (and related filaments) are truly fundamental to the evolution of sensory transportation and their processing abilities in the brain.

https://www.biologyonline.com/dictionary/microtubule

I like the direction of research of fundamental hierarchical sensory evolution from response to brute kinetic forces to volitional responses to electro-chemical sensory information as translated by the neural network and the brain. The "hard facts".

MT ( microtubles ) .

To your last statement .

Psychology .

What in the , electro-chemical sensory would suggest life form ?

 

[Write4U]

MT ( microtubles ) .
Psychology .

Is not a physical discipline.

Neel Burton M.D.
Hide and Seek
EMPATHY

Empathy vs. Sympathy
Sympathy and empathy often lead to each other, but not always.
Posted May 22, 2015 | Reviewed by Kaja Perina

• The Importance of Empathy
• 
  [Article revised on 27 April 2020.]

  In 1909, the psychologist Edward Titchener translated the German Einfühlung (‘feeling into’) into English as ‘empathy’. Empathy can be defined as a person’s ability to recognize and share the emotions of another person, fictional character, or sentient being. It involves, first, seeing someone else’s situation from his perspective, and, second, sharing his emotions, including, if any, his distress.

  For me to share in someone else’s perspective, I must do more than merely put myself into his position. Instead, I must imagine myself as him, and, more than that, imagine myself as him in the particular situation in which he finds himself. I cannot empathize with an abstract or detached feeling. To empathize with a particular person, I need to have at least some knowledge of who he is and what he is doing or trying to do. As John Steinbeck wrote, ‘It means very little to know that a million Chinese are starving unless you know one Chinese who is starving.’

What in the, electro-chemical sensory would suggest life form ?

The gradual evolution of biological sensory awareness, i.e. a light sensitive patch evolving into an eye.

I believe that only biological organisms can develop such evolutionary adaptations. Hard chemistry is resistant to very subtle environmental pressures. A flower can grow around an obstacle towards the light, a sensory ability.
A rock in the shadow remains a rock in the shadow. IMO, that is the fundamental advantage of abiogenesis.

 

[river]

What in the, electro-chemical sensory would suggest life form ?

The gradual evolution of biological sensory awareness, i.e. a light sensitive patch evolving into an eye.

I believe that only biological organisms can develop such evolutionary adaptations. Hard chemistry is resistant to very subtle environmental pressures. A flower can grow around an obstacle towards the light, a sensory ability.
A rock in the shadow remains a rock in the shadow. IMO, that is the fundamental advantage of abiogenesis.

For me abiogenesis ( meaning ; the supposed spontaneous origination of living organisms directly from lifeless matter ) is the key towards understanding that life is in everything . It just needs the environment in which it can manifest .

 

[Write4U]

For me abiogenesis ( meaning ; the supposed spontaneous origination of living organisms directly from lifeless matter ) is the key towards understanding that life is in everything . It just needs the environment in which it can manifest .

I like that.

I would suggest a minor change, i.e. abiogenesis is the key to understanding that life is a probability somewhere between 99.9% and .01%, given sufficient time and spatial chemical environments. (Robert Hazen).

 

[river]

For me abiogenesis ( meaning ; the supposed spontaneous origination of living organisms directly from lifeless matter ) is the key towards understanding that life is in everything . It just needs the environment in which it can manifest .

I like that.

I would suggest a minor change, i.e. abiogenesis is the key to understanding that life is a probability somewhere between 99.9% and .01%, given sufficient time and spatial chemical environments. (Robert Hazen).

Probabilities and the environment .

 

[Write4U]

Probabilities and the environment .

Yes, and the interesting part is that the earliest biological life did not eat other biological life but ate minerals like iron rust, and manganese, and copper for energy.
And to me, the most remarkable phenomena that biological life gave rise to the emergence of new minerals, by digestive conversion and subsequent dilution or heating or heavy impact from subduction or meteors. Life does not just use chemical resources, it actively creates new chemical resources.

This is why I like the terms "self-referential" and "self-organizational", (such as the self-0rganization of mictotubules) which not only reinforces stable patterns but also allows for dynamical diversification from simple to complex patterns via mathematical-like equations.

 

[river]

Yes, and the interesting part is that the earliest biological life did not eat other biological life but ate minerals like iron rust, and manganese, and copper for energy.
And to me, the most remarkable phenomena that biological life gave rise to the emergence of new minerals, by digestive conversion and subsequent dilution or heating or heavy impact from subduction or meteors.

Micro Organisms deep in Earth's Crust .

 

[Write4U]

Micro Organisms deep in Earth's Crust .

Yes, they have found micro-organisms 6 miles deep in the earths crust. No oxygen, no sunlight. Basically, sets of biological molecules feeding on the earth's minerals.

Some very early life could have made it by staying deep—living as far as six miles below the seafloor. That's the implication from a new study that found signs of microbes alive today below the deepest place on Earth, the vast underwater canyon called the Mariana Trench.Apr 10, 2017

Life in the trench

Recent scientific expeditions have discovered surprisingly diverse life in these harsh conditions. Animals living in the deepest parts of the Mariana Trench survive in complete darkness and extreme pressure, said Natasha Gallo, a doctoral student at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography who has been studying the video footage from Cameron's 2012 expedition.

Food in the Mariana Trench is extremely limited, because the deep gorge is far from land. Leaves, coconuts and trees rarely find their way into the bottom of the trench, Gallo said, and dead plankton sinking from the surface must drop thousands of feet to reach Challenger Deep. Instead, some microbes rely on chemicals, such as methane or sulfur, while other creatures gobble marine life lower on the food chain.

The three most common organisms at the bottom of the Mariana Trench are xenophyophores, amphipods and small sea cucumbers (holothurians), Gallo said.

The single-celled xenophyophores resemble giant amoebas, and they eat by surrounding and absorbing their food. Amphipods are shiny, shrimplike scavengers commonly found in deep-sea trenches. The holothurians may be a new species of bizarre, translucent sea cucumber.

"These are some of the deepest holothurians ever observed, and they were relatively abundant," Gallo said.

Scientists have also identified more than 200 different microorganisms in mud collected from the Challenger Deep. The mud was brought back to labs on dry land in special canisters, and is painstakingly kept in conditions that mimic the crushing cold and pressure. [Video: Dive Deep: Virtual Tour of the Mariana Trench]

During Cameron's 2012 expedition, scientists also spotted microbial mats in the Sirena Deep, the zone east of the Challenger Deep. These clumps of microbes feed on hydrogen and methane released by chemical reactions between seawater and rocks.

However, a deceptively vulnerable-looking fish is not only right at home here, it's also one of the region's top predators. In 2017, scientists reported they had collected specimens of an unusual creature, dubbed the Mariana snailfish, which lives at a depth of about 26,200 feet (8,000 m). The snailfish's small, pink and scaleless body hardly seems capable of surviving in such a punishing environment, but this fish is full of surprises, researchers reported in a new study. The animal appears to dominate in this ecosystem, going deeper than any other fish and exploiting the absence of competitors by gobbling up the plentiful invertebrate prey that inhabit the trench, the study authors wrote.

https://www.livescience.com/23387-mariana-trench.html

 

[river]

Yes, they have found micro-organisms 6 miles deep in the earths crust. No oxygen, no sunlight. Basically, sets of biological molecules feeding on the earth's minerals.


Life in the trench
https://www.livescience.com/23387-mariana-trench.html

And All this tells you Write4U ...

 

[Write4U]

And All this tells you Write4U ...

That Abiogenesis is true and fundamentally explained by current mineralogy . Can you offer a better and more believable alternative?

All this means that Life is not a rare event, when the environment offers sufficient resources and time frames for slow evolutionary processes to form complex patterns from simple patterns. That's it in a nutshell.

 

[river]

That Abiogenesis is true and fundamentally explained by current mineralogy . Can you offer a better and more believable alternative?

All this means that Life is not a rare event, when the environment offers sufficient resources and time frames for slow evolutionary processes to form complex patterns from simple patterns. That's it in a nutshell.

Have you looked up the meaning of delta in chemistry ?

 

[Write4U]

Have you looked up the meaning of delta in chemistry ?

No, but I just did. (question: delta, chemistry)

This is from : Illustrated Glossary of Organic Chemistry

δ+: A symbol which indicates that an atom or region with a deficiency of electron density, often because of resonance delocalization, electro negativity differences, or inductive effects.

Does what ??????
The statement makes absolutely no sense other than as a poorly worded statement.

EN C (2.5) < EN Cl (3.0)

ΔEN = 3.0 - 2.5 = 0.5 Therefore the carbon-chlorine bond of chloro-methane is a polar covalent bond.

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~harding/IGOC/D/delta_plus.html#

And what of it? Does it have anything to do with consciousness or microtubules. Can you explain the relevancy of "delta" (chemistry) to the OP question?

 

[river]

No, but I just did. (question: delta, chemistry)

This is from : Illustrated Glossary of Organic Chemistry
Does what ??????
The statement makes absolutely no sense other than as a poorly worded statement. http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~harding/IGOC/D/delta_plus.html#

And what of it? Does it have anything to do with consciousness or microtubules. Can you explain the relevancy of "delta" (chemistry) to the OP question?

In Chemistry , delta is referring to Organic Chemistry . Life .

 

[Write4U]

In Chemistry , delta is referring to Organic Chemistry . Life .

In what way? Organic life cannot exist via abiogenesis? Robert Hazen is wrong?

 

[river]

In what way? Organic life cannot exist via abiogenesis? Robert Hazen is wrong?

Look up the Meaning of delta in chemistry . Its not easy to find .

 

[Write4U]

Look up the Meaning of delta in chemistry . Its not easy to find .

OK. I consulted the "Illustrated Glossary of Organic Chemistry" (see link)

But I'll dig further;

The discriminant of a polynomial equation, especially the quadratic equation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_(letter)

And we get back to the Lyapunov function :

Whereas there is no general technique for constructing Lyapunov functions for ODEs, in many specific cases the construction of Lyapunov functions is known.

For instance, quadratic functions suffice for systems with one state; the solution of a particular linear matrix inequality provides Lyapunov functions for linear systems; and conservation laws can often be used to construct Lyapunov functions for physical systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyapunov_function

And exactly what are we discussing here?

 

[exchemist]

OK. I consulted the "Illustrated Glossary of Organic Chemistry" (see link)

But I'll dig further; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_(letter)

And we get back to the Lyapunov function : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyapunov_function

And exactly what are we discussing here?

You are trying to hold a conversation with river. Enough said.

Delta has no special meaning in chemistry, by the way. Small delta, δ, is used to denote small amounts or small changes, as it often is in science, e.g. the δ+ example you quoted for a molecule with an electric dipole. Large delta, Δ, is used, as it is in many scientific contexts, to indicate the change in a quantity, or the difference between two quantities, for instance in the enthalpy change for a reaction, ΔH.

So forget it: it's just river talking out of his arse as usual.

 

[Write4U]

You are trying to hold a conversation with river. Enough said.

I appreciate river. He makes me work and learn. His questions are usually simple enough for me to respond to in a general way, which is how I like to look at things.

Delta has no special meaning in chemistry, by the way. Small delta, δ, is used to denote small amounts or small changes, as it often is in science, e.g. the δ+ example you quoted for a molecule with an electric dipole. Large delta, Δ, is used, as it is in many scientific contexts, to indicate the change in a quantity, or the difference between two quantities, for instance in the enthalpy change for a reaction, ΔH.

Thanks for that explanation. I was wondering why river brought it up.

But on second look, perhaps this may still be relevant.

I ran across this condensed video by Hameroff where he explores the role of "dendrites" in the ORCH OR system hypothesis, which also makes a correction in my thinking. Apparently the microtubule highways are still too coarse for quantum processes and we need to look deeper at the microtubules within the "dendrites" which extend from neural cell in tree like fashion and are in much greater abundance than MT within the neural axons.

I recalled Hameroff mentioning benzene rings in relation to quantum environment and lo ..... I ran across this;

If carbon won't react with hydrogen to make benzene, what is the point of this, and how does anybody know what the enthalpy change is?

What the figure of +49 shows is the relative positions of benzene and its elements on an energy diagram:

How do we know this if the reaction doesn't happen? It is actually very simple to calculate it from other values which we can measure - for example, from enthalpy changes of combustion (coming up next). We will come back to this again when we look at calculations on another page.

Knowing the enthalpy changes of formation of compounds enables you to calculate the enthalpy changes in a whole host of reactions and, again, we will explore that in a bit more detail on another page.

https://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/energetics/definitions.html

So forget it: it's just river talking out of his arse as usual.

I am just glad he shows interest in the subject and he is a guest in my thread.....

The more I read about the subject the more I learn. From this exchange I need to refocus on "dendrites" and their synaptic behaviors.