Integrating European Muslims: Europe’s Fearful Bid

Proud_Muslim said:
[deleted], you dont know even know how to distinguish between MALE AND FEMLAE POSTERS !!! :D


I was reading a thread you had about being a woman from south australia who had converted, i must have been misled. sorry.

It's people like you who are going to die before the campaign on terror is finished, remember you are an inferior human being(regardless of your religion) when the bomb lands on your house or cave.
 
Nebuchadnezzaar said:
I was reading a thread you had about being a woman from south australia who had converted, i must have been misled. sorry.
It's people like you who are going to die before the campaign on terror is finished, remember you are an inferior human being(regardless of your religion) when the bomb lands on your house or cave.

Well, we all will die, the difference however is that I am NOT afraid to die, while you are shaking from just the thought of death.. :rolleyes:
 
Proud_Muslim said:
Well, we all will die, the difference however is that I am NOT afraid to die, while you are shaking from just the thought of death.. :rolleyes:

Not really, i have cancer and have made my peace with this world.
 
Proud_Muslim said:
Well, we all will die, the difference however is that I am NOT afraid to die, while you are shaking from just the thought of death.. :rolleyes:
And YOU are shaking from just the thought of answering my posts, your silence confirms you cannot disagree with me... :D
 
Bachus said:
I don't need or even want your respect. I don't even respect you and find you laughable.

I am not asking you to earn my respect, I dont give it to uncircumcized haters, you need to earn the respect of the world you live in, preaching hate is not good factor in earning respect as you rightly know ! :rolleyes:
 
Proud_Muslim said:
This is pure nonesense and bullshit, where in Islam it says 9 years old girl should behave as woman !!! can you please provide evidence for that from the Quran ?????????????? :rolleyes:

Please bells,Dont speak out of your pathetic ignorance of Islam...
Oh don't start with the 'ignorant' crap. This was a claim made by a cleric in Iran. So it would be he that you should be calling ignorant. I made a comment about it and if I was wrong, all you had to do was just say so. After all, you're supposed to be the expert right :rolleyes:? I had always understood that girls in Islam reached the age of maturity upon their first menstruation, regardless of the age. However what that cleric said in that documentary intrigued me. I just assumed it was because Aishah was supposed to be 9 when she consumated her marriage to Mohammed. If I'm wrong, then I apologise. But the statement coming from a leading cleric in Iran, most people would have assumed that was the case there. I did a quick google search and found this article which may have explained the cleric's statement:

http://www.parstimes.com/women/child_marriage.html

As for homosexuality, I can understand why you'd think that the numbers would be small considering the repercussions of 'coming out'... so most stay silent about their homosexuality. Speaking out could result in horrible repercussions depending on one's Islamic teachings. :( I thought treatment of homosexuals in Catholicism was bad.

http://www.well.com/user/queerjhd/sxislamictreatment.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla.htm
 
You still did not provide a proof that considering a 10 years old child as woman !!! you claimed that this cleric went against his religious beliefs ( which is pure BS ) so I asked you to PROVE that it is Islamic belief to consider 9-10 years old girl as woman !! I am still waiting !! :rolleyes:
 
Proud_Muslim said:
You still did not provide a proof that considering a 10 years old child as woman !!! you claimed that this cleric went against his religious beliefs ( which is pure BS ) so I asked you to PROVE that it is Islamic belief to consider 9-10 years old girl as woman !! I am still waiting !! :rolleyes:

One would assume that Sharia law was representative of Islamic beliefs and laws?

Muhammad was 52 and Aisha was 9 when they married and sexually consummated their marriage. Muhammad followed an Arab custom in marrying a child who had her first menstrual cycle. This action must be questioned, regardless of it being a cultural norm, because Muhammad's action and teachings on marriage established an Islamic precedent: a girl is judged an adult following her first menses, and is eligible for marriage and sexual relations. Thus Muslim men are allowed to marry and have intercourse with young girls who have happened to have an early first menstrual cycle. As will be shown, this leads to physical and psychological damage to the child.

-----------------------------------------
What is more critical than Muhammad's single action with Aisha is that he taught that a girl is considered an adult following her first menstrual cycle. He also taught that his followers were to follow his "sunnah" or lifestyle. Thus today, throughout much of the Mideast, girls as young as nine are often married by men old enough to be their grandfather.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm

Now before you jump down my throat, the article went on to state this:

But why then do we find it objectionable? After all, Muhammad did not live in our culture or under our law. He lived under a Semitic culture. And this custom of marrying girls after their first menses existed in the Mideast long before Muhammad.
It was custom for many children to be seen as brides during those times and the practice still continues today in many parts of the world.

Now this next one almost had me gagging with revulsion but there are many parts of the world where the woman's age of maturity is deemed to be 9 under Sharia law. I apologise for using it. While most educated Muslims would feel revulsion at the idea, such beliefs that 9 is the age of maturity are still known to exist. Nigeria with the implementation of Sharia law is one known example.

the Nigerian courts applied Shari'a and sentenced the teacher to 40 lashes and a $70 fine, but only because he penetrated her prior to the age of nine, the age of maturity cited by Mohammed's consummation with his youngest wife.
http://www.studlife.com/news/2003/1...any.Muslim.Laws.Are.Misogynistic-558059.shtml
That man should have been sent to jail for life :mad:.

Most of Iran’s inegalitarian legal provisions related to the sharia are still in force, including legal marriage at age 9 for girls
http://www.wluml.org/english/pubsfulltxt.shtml?cmd[87]=i-87-90862be92116ceddae32293df8e0fad1
While I am aware that most places do not practice such teachings, some still do however. So do not jump down my throat. I was merely enquiring about what that cleric in that documentary stated. I told you before that if I was wrong I apologise. I had stated that the cleric was talking about the particular laws in Iran (which appears to have changed recently to making the age of maturity to 13). However some States which strictly adhere to Sharia law and Islamic law still continue the practice and teachings of such beliefs.


Edit: I took out the details of the child rape because they were too vile to put into any kind of thread.
 
Shame on you, you are quoting from FAMOUS HATE SITE called answering islam ???

www.answering-christianity.com

You know bells, you lost all my respect, you are not better than vienna, you are hater in disguise.

Anyway, I am still waiting PROOF from the QURAN, please dont give me fabricated stories from hate sites, I want SOLID PROOF from the quran, YOU FAILED BELLS, BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT.
 
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Proud_Muslim said:
You know bells, you lost all my respect, you are not better than vienna, you are hater in disguise.
Proud Muslim, I'm glad that you do not respect me, because all that you DO respect is vile and disgusting.

BTW Bells is not a hater. Bells is someone who can give a good argument.
 
Why oh why did I ever mention that documentary.

PM, I do not know why this individual cleric said what he did. Had I been there when it was made I'd have asked. Now you first asked me to prove it in Islam and I showed you that in Iran and in Nigeria, the age of maturity for marriage is 9. Now I assume that Sharia law is a part of Islam? I've heard you refer to it on several occasions as being Islamic law. I would assume that such laws or beliefs, as that stated by this particular cleric is based on Hadiths. I have a slight recollection that there are teachings in Islam stating that Hadiths should not be believed? (not too sure about that)

From what I remember of the Quran, the age of marriage is determined by the maturity of the individual wishing to be married, definite age is not mentioned (I think anyway). Therefore one would assume that such beliefs as in Iran and Nigeria for example, would be from Hadiths. In some communities, the age of maturity appears to have been reached when the girl begins menstruation. In Nigeria, it appears to be stated in Sharia law as being 9. In Iran the age of maturity has changed from 9 to 13, thereby altering Sharia law.

Now the comment made by the Muslim woman who presented the documentary was that this cleric was going against the established Islamic beliefs and religious belief in place in Iran. He agreed that he was going against the norms and practices in Iran. If you have a problem with this then shoot him and not the messenger.

I've had enough. Seriously enough.

And thanks for calling me a hater. I never realised I was. But thanks anyway. And people wonder why I'm agnostic.
 
My experience with Muslims is that the age of 9 is not in the Sharia law. Muhammed never explicitly commands that the minimum age was 9, and the Hadith accounts that Muhammed married Alisha at 9 is are discounted as inaccurate by most Muslims.
 
Proud_Muslim:

Oh I see, now you are blaming the 'someone else' who wrote the article not you !!

I'm not "blaming" anybody for anything. I was very clear about who wrote the article, as I always am when I post something not written by me.

You know James, you are so arrogantly self rightous, your own thread about Islam and feminism WAS INDEED, CUT AND PASTE AND WAS NOT YOUR OWN WORDS, but oh well !!

Yes, it was cut-and-pasted. As I said, I wanted to know people's views on the article. I gave some of my own views later in the thread, following comments by other people.

Well this is not true, scrolling down the same thread we see that you indeed embraced most of these opinions which mean you agree with them...come on james, admint once in your life you were wrong !!

It is very possible that I defended those opinions, but that does not mean that I embrace them. Have you ever heard the term "devil's advocate"? Do you know what that means? If not, I can explain.

In the future, you need to be more humble, you need to rid yourself from this arrogance and self-rightousness, it is not healthy at all, you know !!

I thank you for your opinion. I will consider what you have said, and give it weight according to the example you set for me in this regard.

Well, it depends on how you define terrorism...I dont think George Washington was terrorist when he was blowing up the brits during the American indepedence, was he james ??

Did he blow up innocents?

I have been living in the west for nearly 7 years now, I can claim that I know at least the basics about your culture.

Then why make general, unsupported claims about it, if you know better?

I agree with you, generalization is the tool of the fools, I did not say all westerners are drunk, i did not say all of them go whoring and clubing, I said, some of them want Muslims to do that to be '''accepted'' in the society, please go back to my post to read more...

I read your post. There was nothing about "some westerners".

Which only VENDICATE my views about Islam and Muslims, we are MATURE enough to know who will lead us to prosperity and who will not, the results of these elections PROVE that Muslims are against extremism and indeed can handle democrasy as much the most democratic countries in the world.

I have never said differently. There are many enlightened Muslims in the world. There are also irrational fundamentalists. Neither is a particular to Islam; Christian can also be learned or stupid. Be wary of generalising, because most people are individuals, not just pawns of their religious beliefs.

Me: What is evil about a same-sex marriage?

You: OH PLEASE.......GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK !! how about the destruction of the nuclear family ????

A couple of points:

1. Is the nuclear family so great in the first place? How many nuclear families have embeeded child or spousal abuse, for example? How many nuclear families are fundamentally unhappy?

2. Same-sex marriages might actually strengthen the nuclear family. This is an age of divorce and single parenthood. With same-sex marriage, people are committing to each other to form families.

Do you always use this ''perhaps'' in your discussions ??????

Yes, often. Unlike you, Proud_Muslim, I am not convinced that everything I believe in is necessarily true. I allow for the fact that sometimes I make mistakes, or have incorrect beliefs based on things I have heard or read. When I am in doubt, I use words like "perhaps" and "maybe" and "possibly".

I'm sure that for you the whole world is black or white, but I like to think I appreciate some of the complexities.

Where ?? show me where you debunked that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world????

Read the first thread you posted with that title.

you were very quick to CLOSE my thread about BRITIAN'S ELITE CONVERTING TO ISLAM, apparently, it was too embrassing for you !!!!

If 100 idiots jump off a bridge, would I get embarrassed or jealous? I don't think so. How is this any different?
 
James R said:
Proud_Muslim:

Yes, it was cut-and-pasted. As I said, I wanted to know people's views on the article. I gave some of my own views later in the thread, following comments by other people.

Great, so it was cut and paste and you admited it.

It is very possible that I defended those opinions, but that does not mean that I embrace them. Have you ever heard the term "devil's advocate"? Do you know what that means? If not, I can explain.

I see, you defend some opinions but you dont embrace them !! I dont call this devil advocate, I call it hypocrisy, do you what that means ??

I thank you for your opinion. I will consider what you have said, and give it weight according to the example you set for me in this regard.

Thank you so much ! :rolleyes:

Did he blow up innocents?

Yes, shall I teach you something about the American war of independence since I am American and I know better than you about this, i studied in american school books, you know !! :rolleyes:

Then why make general, unsupported claims about it, if you know better?

I am not making general statements, please, go back to my posts and read.

I read your post. There was nothing about "some westerners".

were you wearing your glasses when you were reading ?

A couple of points:

1. Is the nuclear family so great in the first place? How many nuclear families have embeeded child or spousal abuse, for example? How many nuclear families are fundamentally unhappy?

Good point, this is the case in the west, broken families allow homosexuality to flourish, this is and wont happen in muslim environment.

2. Same-sex marriages might actually strengthen the nuclear family. This is an age of divorce and single parenthood. With same-sex marriage, people are committing to each other to form families.

Are you serious ?????????? Oh my god, no wonder you guys are going down the drain with such views and practicies, you cant treat fire with fire !!

Yes, often. Unlike you, Proud_Muslim, I am not convinced that everything I believe in is necessarily true. I allow for the fact that sometimes I make mistakes, or have incorrect beliefs based on things I have heard or read. When I am in doubt, I use words like "perhaps" and "maybe" and "possibly".

Would not be wiser not to speak instead of using perhaps ??? after all, if speaking is from silver, silence is from GOLD.

I'm sure that for you the whole world is black or white, but I like to think I appreciate some of the complexities.

not really, I believe there are other colours, and that is why I use them when I post here. ;)

Read the first thread you posted with that title.

that has nothing to do with the fact that you failed to debunk any FACT or source I provided about Islam being the fastest growing religion on earth, shall I post the SOURCES again and you can debunk them that if you can ??

If 100 idiots jump off a bridge, would I get embarrassed or jealous? I don't think so. How is this any different?

You know James, you are not honest nor fair, DELETING my thread about Britian's elites converting to Islam while allowing pathetic christian to start a thread called Allah the liar indicates and indeed reveal your true colours, if you are confidenet of your athiesm, why you are too scared to let others read about ISLAM and how THE ELITES and the NORMAL people are converting ?????????????

As to your analogy ''jumping from the bridge'', this is flawed example, because for those who converted to islam , they look at you at someone who ALREADY JUMPED DOWN INTO THE ABYSS OF DARKNESS AND DISBELIEFE while they were saved from the same fate, you see james, it is 2 way road.
 
Proud_Muslim said:
Yes, shall I teach you something about the American war of independence since I am American and I know better than you about this, i studied in american school books, you know !!
You're American now? Here I thought you were Syrian. The way you carry on about how Americans are zionist Jews, I would never have picked you as being something you so hate. What's next? You're going to tell us you aren't a Muslim? :p

Good point, this is the case in the west, broken families allow homosexuality to flourish, this is and wont happen in muslim environment.
Islam allows divorce PM. Are you now saying that there are no 'broken families' within Muslim communities?

And homosexuals don't come out in a 'Muslim environment' because the repercussions are too grave. They face the prospect of being ostracised from their family and community. In some countries they face the prospect of death. Unfortunately this is not solely in the province of Muslim communities but also exists in some Christian, Jewish and Hindu communities as well. However to state that homosexuality is a result of 'broken families' is a stupid and bold claim to make. Unbroken families also have children who are homosexuals. Or are you going to be so bold as to blame that on bad parenting?

James
I have never said differently. There are many enlightened Muslims in the world. There are also irrational fundamentalists. Neither is a particular to Islam; Christian can also be learned or stupid. Be wary of generalising, because most people are individuals, not just pawns of their religious beliefs.
Well said!
 
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