Integrating European Muslims: Europe’s Fearful Bid

[water]

"You are never dedicated to do something you have complete confidence in. No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kind of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt."
Robert M. Pirsig, "Zen & The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"

From http://thewaronfaith.com/aq_hard_core.htm

What does this say about fanatical people ...

 

[Proud_Muslim]

You're American now? Here I thought you were Syrian. The way you carry on about how Americans are zionist Jews, I would never have picked you as being something you so hate. What's next? You're going to tell us you aren't a Muslim?

I did not know you are very that thick in your brain !!! did you really believe I am an American ???? LAMO

As for the rest of your post, it is the usual garbage.

 

[Bells]

And it's obvious that you are totally oblivious to sarcasm.

 

[Nebuchadnezzaar]

I did not know you are very that thick in your brain !!! did you really believe I am an American ???? LAMO

As for the rest of your post, it is the usual garbage.

I would really like to meet you Proud Muslim so that i could see the saddest person on earth.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

And what about you ??? the most gentle person in the world ???

I pray sincerely to Allah almighty to cure you from your ordeal with cancer..Ameen ya rab al aalamin.

 

[water]

Proud Muslim,

I want to tell you something. In elementary school, for all 8 years, I was the only kid in my class who was not baptized in a Catholic church and my family did not attend church services. All other kids in my class were active Catholics. It happened several times that some of the kids rejected me and insulted me, sometimes just made fun of me because I wasn't Catholic. Later too, I was sometimes reproached by some Catholics. I think that in your life, you have probably made similar experiences due to "being different".
I learned to hate Catholics, and all Christians. I hated them with a pasion that made me tremble.

But after a time I realised that this is unproductive, in hinders me in my own life. I would lose days, thinking how bad Christians are. Lost days that I could spend drawing, studying, developing my talents, and most of all, be with my family and friends!

Hate is a burden. I got tired of it. Hate and despise lead only to more hate and despise. They can bring out the worst in people, both in us and in those whom we hate and despise. You said yourself that, "you cant treat fire with fire !!" and "HATE IS FIRE THAT ENGULFS THE HATER FIRST... "


I am making a personal and emotional argument here, I have no other evidence for what I am saying but my own experience and my heart. I am telling you this just as one human to another.

You say things like "your primitive mind and your inability to see the obvious " here, you call some people here liars and hypocrites. These are harsh things to say.
Whatever you say, it is you yourself who says it, these words come out of your mouth/from under your fingers.
We cannot simply say that the way we treat others is justified by the way these people behave; and that if they swear, it is ok for us to swear back at them. If we do so, we deny ourselves from our so cherished right of acting according to our will. As far as I could tell, you believe in modesty, honor and other noble things. But where is the nobleness in saying to someone things like: "YOU FAILED BELLS, BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT.", "...you are bunch of HYPOCRITES.", "your primitive mind and your inability to see the obvious ", "typical liar", "HYPOCRITES !!", "you FREEDOM FRIES DUMB "
?

If one truly wants to be noble and believes in it, one does one's best to be noble at all times or one isn't noble at all.
Be what you proclaim that you are, or don't proclaim anything.

 

[Bells]

As far as I could tell, you believe in modesty, honor and other noble things. But where is the nobleness in saying to someone things like: "YOU FAILED BELLS, BECAUSE YOU ARE IGNORANT.", "...you are bunch of HYPOCRITES.", "your primitive mind and your inability to see the obvious ", "typical liar", "HYPOCRITES !!", "you FREEDOM FRIES DUMB "
?

He says it because it makes him feel better. He then gains a sense of superiority over others. By calling others 'ignorant', 'hypocrites', 'liars', 'primitive', 'freedom fries dumb' (my personal favourite actually), etc, he feels superior in his religious beliefs. It's as though he tells himself, I believe in this and therefore I AM superior. How else would one feel superiority over others than to deem others to be inferior? He is emotional and passionate about his beliefs, as he should be. But mostly he lets it get away from him and he loses control, and he becomes blind to all around him. The need to insult others than become too great, regardless of the fact that some of those others agree with him. PM believes that he does not just believe in Islam. PM believes that he is Islam. I asked him once long ago, 'who are you?' and his reply was 'I am muslim'. I'll admit that shocked me a little. Most people would have said I am PM (or PS as he was known back then) as one would give their name to identify themselves or they would have said I am me.

It is through his religious beliefs that PM sees himself as being superior to others (Muslim and non-Muslim alike), which kind of defeats the purpose of teaching modesty in Islam, as when I look at PM, I tend to see the opposite.

I'd always had respect for PM, and regardless of the insults traded, some of that respect remains... minute though it is.. some is still there. However I've come to notice that if you agree with PM, he will tell you that you understand Islam. If you disagree you become an 'athiest', 'islamophobe', 'hypocrite', etc, etc, etc and he will tell you that you have no understanding of Islam. I know lol... I have been through this several times. In one week a while back, according to PM, I understood Islam, then the next day I misunderstood it and hated it, then 2 days after that, i again understood it. I felt like a yoyo.

Rosa, this is what I've noticed of PM since I've been here. One day will by this way and another day it will be that way. But then I guess, we're all guilty of acting like that to various degrees.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Proud Muslim,
...
If one truly wants to be noble and believes in it, one does one's best to be noble at all times or one isn't noble at all.
Be what you proclaim that you are, or don't proclaim anything.

Thank you rosa for sharing your experience with me, you were not fair at all, because you only concentrated on what I say, you did not display what other haters like vienna ( crazymikey), bells and other haters say, your analysis was one-sided and lacks credibility, if you want to be fair, go and make the same analysis about the haters and the liars who bash Islam and Muslims here on this forum.

I would appreciate you so much if you can do that, can you ??

 

[water]

Bells,

Thanks for your input.

He says it because it makes him feel better. He then gains a sense of superiority over others. By calling others 'ignorant', 'hypocrites', 'liars', 'primitive', 'freedom fries dumb' (my personal favourite actually), etc, he feels superior in his religious beliefs. It's as though he tells himself, I believe in this and therefore I AM superior. How else would one feel superiority over others than to deem others to be inferior?

I think I understand your point. However, I think that a feeling of superiority has something to do with the feeling of inferiority -- and both are a warped way to look at oneself. In a way, superiority and inferiority are two sides of the same coin. Why would someone want to feel superior? It must be that the feeling of superiority is a compensation for the feeling of inferiority. (And probably a vice versa is possible too.) Personally, I think that a healthy view is that one feels neither superior nor inferior as a person in regards to others. Yes, I might be a lousy tennis player -- that makes me inferior as far as playing tennis goes. But does that make me an inferior person? No.

PM believes that he does not just believe in Islam. PM believes that he is Islam. I asked him once long ago, 'who are you?' and his reply was 'I am muslim'.

Maybe that's the clue. Maybe this "individuality thing", of having a name and a concept of an individual personality is rather a (modern) Western thing. Maybe Islam, but actually many religions fall into this group, including Christianity -- maybe these religions are having a very different idea of what personality is. After all, they are mostly striving for a certain equality within their group, compare the Christian "Before God, we are all equal."

But if so, then communication between such different groups should better not begin in the first place, for it is doomed to be full of misunderstandings. Huh, I could say that everyone should stay in their own native country and mind his own business, and if someone invades it, fight back.

But it is far too late for such a solution, therefore communication does and must take place. And with it, treating others with respect.

One day will by this way and another day it will be that way. But then I guess, we're all guilty of acting like that to various degrees.

Of course we all tend to yoyo around. I just think that some people's yoyoing around is too extreme. I think that others have the right to step in in such a case and say that in their view, those behavior spans are just too wide and that communication is unproductive if people keep going from one extreme to another like that.

 

[water]

Proud Muslim,

Thank you rosa for sharing your experience with me, you were not fair at all, because you only concentrated on what I say, you did not display what other haters like vienna ( crazymikey), bells and other haters say, your analysis was one-sided and lacks credibility, if you want to be fair, go and make the same analysis about the haters and the liars who bash Islam and Muslims here on this forum.

I would appreciate you so much if you can do that, can you ??

I clearly said that
I am making a personal and emotional argument here ...
Surely, my analysis is "one-sided and lacks credibility", and I was "not fair at all". I said it was personal and emotional! Do you think that I would go and count and evaluate (" ") the insults this or that poster said?! That would be ridiculus! That is NOT the point at all.

Trying to weigh and evaluate insults would be much the same rationalizing behavior as if someone would call me "a stupid dirty bitch" and then I would go and ask this person "Can you present arguments why do you think I am a stupid dirty bitch?" If someone calls you that, you don't go and ask for arguments to "support such an allegation". If someone calls you that, it is simply because that person feels hurt, one way or another. You ask them whether they feel hurt or offended or something like that and find out if you caused it; you don't ask them to "present arguments" why they think you ... well, whatever they think you.


I didn't write that post to bash you or anybody else or to moralize. One doesn't need to be a saint in order to be "allowed" to write a thing like that. Anyone can. Who am I to tell you what to do or what to feel?! It is just up to you, whether you will read that and think about it -- and see if that message bears some truth for you. (Reading this very message makes an example of it ...)
It may not bear any truth for you -- in this case you will ignore it. But if you see that it does bear some truth for you, what will you do? From this point on, it is not my thing to "present evidence or arguments". If YOU see, that something DOES bear truth for you, then YOU yourself are the one to take further steps, not the person who actually wrote the message.


Proud Muslim, I don't have anything against you as a person -- I don't know you! It is my personal and emotional opinion (and it is opinions of one sort or another that are presented here on SF!) that a person who clearly and vocally states that he belongs to a certain religion and presents the beliefs of this religion -- but then, in practice, in communication with others, is in grave opposition with those beliefs -- yes, my opinion is that I can remind that person of the opposition they are in. In this case, this is you.

I can see that you are emotional and passionate about your belief, and I am fascinated by that.
Maybe I am just from another time or a bog, but I simply don't see how someone who states that he believes in God and high and noble values feels ok to let himself treat other people in a disrespectful manner. He discredits himself that way.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Proud Muslim,
I clearly said that
I am making a personal and emotional argument here ...
Surely, my analysis is "one-sided and lacks credibility", and I was "not fair at all". I said it was personal and emotional! Do you think that I would go and count and evaluate (" ") the insults this or that poster said?! That would be ridiculus! That is NOT the point at all.

isnt that selective analysis ??? to point only at one side ??

Trying to weigh and evaluate insults would be much the same rationalizing behavior as if someone would call me "a stupid dirty bitch" and then I would go and ask this person "Can you present arguments why do you think I am a stupid dirty bitch?" If someone calls you that, you don't go and ask for arguments to "support such an allegation". If someone calls you that, it is simply because that person feels hurt, one way or another. You ask them whether they feel hurt or offended or something like that and find out if you caused it; you don't ask them to "present arguments" why they think you ... well, whatever they think you.

So you are justifying the insults against Islam ??? right ?? it is ok for non muslims to insult Islam but when Muslims answer back, they become haters, fanatics,blag, blah...blah... !! what kind of logic is this ???

I didn't write that post to bash you or anybody else or to moralize. One doesn't need to be a saint in order to be "allowed" to write a thing like that. Anyone can. Who am I to tell you what to do or what to feel?! It is just up to you, whether you will read that and think about it -- and see if that message bears some truth for you. (Reading this very message makes an example of it ...)

I did read your message and I felt it very one sides and biased, you were very happy to quote what I said but when challenged about what other haters said about Islam, you said you are not in the business of counting insults !!! come on, this is very unfair.

It may not bear any truth for you -- in this case you will ignore it. But if you see that it does bear some truth for you, what will you do?

It does not bear any truth because it lacks credibility, it came from someone like you who quote from FANATICAL ATHIEST SITES such as the war on faith and only take one side...As I said, you are NOT fair, the fact that you said your analysis was personal and emotional confirm it that it is not fair...so I dont take it seriously.

If you want me to take you seriously, go and post the same about the haters and the liars who bash and insult Islam, only then, we can sit and talk, not now, I am sorry.

Proud Muslim, I don't have anything against you as a person -- I don't know you! It is my personal and emotional opinion (and it is opinions of one sort or another that are presented here on SF!) that a person who clearly and vocally states that he belongs to a certain religion and presents the beliefs of this religion -- but then, in practice, in communication with others, is in grave opposition with those beliefs -- yes, my opinion is that I can remind that person of the opposition they are in. In this case, this is you.

Well I think you are mixing things up here, what things I did here which amount to ''opposition to my beliefs '' ??? you have to understand something ver clear about islam: we dont turn the other cheeck, Islam is unlike christianity a rational logical faith, it makes sense to HIT BACK UNTIL THE AGGRESSION STOPS, we dont turn the other cheeck because we DONT REWARD AGGRESSORS.

I can see that you are emotional and passionate about your belief, and I am fascinated by that.

Thank you Rosa, maybe it is this chance of yours to study Islam and see why Muslims are so passionte about their faith more than any other religion on earth.

Maybe I am just from another time or a bog, but I simply don't see how someone who states that he believes in God and high and noble values feels ok to let himself treat other people in a disrespectful manner. He discredits himself that way.

You see Rosa, your biased one sided hypocrisy again !! you only talked about me and how I disrespect others ( refuting the haters and liars lies is not disrespect) when I refute those hopeless athiests lies, I am not disrecpecting them, I am waking them up, so can you please quote what the OTHER SIDE has said about Islam and Muslims, doing that will give you some credibility.

 

[water]

Proud Muslim,

So you are justifying the insults against Islam ??? right ??

I was trying to say that NO insult can ever be justified. No matter who insults whom. This is why I am "not in the business of counting insults". I pointed at what you said because you are the one here who most loudly says how Muslims are being oppressed. I didn't count your insults, I only listed a few to point out that by using them YOU ARE SPITTING ON YOUR OWN PLATE.
It is wrong to be insultive and then expect others to respect you and believe what you do. Period.

As I said, you are NOT fair, the fact that you said your analysis was personal and emotional confirm it that it is not fair...so I dont take it seriously.

Are you really not taking me seriously? How much time did you spend writing your last post? 10 minutes? You WASTED 10 minutes of your precious time on someone whom you don't take seriously?! This is a very lame way to use one's time.
If you really wouldn't take me seriously, you would simply ignore me. People who don't give a shit about someone don't go and tell them that they don't give a shit about them ... well, because they don't give a shit.

the haters and the liars who bash and insult Islam

Do you feel that my mere existence is an insult to Islam? Don't forget that at least technically, I could be a Muslim one day, but by saying that you are not taking me seriously, the chances of me becoming Muslim one day are slimmer and slimmer.

it makes sense to HIT BACK UNTIL THE AGGRESSION STOPS, we dont turn the other cheeck because we DONT REWARD AGGRESSORS.

Man, you are so eager to feel hurt!

Would you accept the religion of a man pointing a gun at your head and believe that this is the only true religion? Would you?
So why should we?!

You see Rosa, your biased one sided hypocrisy again !! you only talked about me and how I disrespect others ( refuting the haters and liars lies is not disrespect)

Calling them HATERS and LIARS is disrespect, at least in my eyes.

when I refute those hopeless athiests lies, I am not disrecpecting them, I am waking them up, so can you please quote what the OTHER SIDE has said about Islam and Muslims, doing that will give you some credibility.

Yes, it might give me credibility in YOUR eyes if I behave the same way you do, but not in mine eyes. You yourself quoted the Quran somewhere about the issue of being true to oneself. The point was that God made each and every person the way he or she is, and that it would be wrong trying to be somebody else. This is what you believe, don't you?
If I would, for example, go and try to find justification for this or that insult, I would go against myself, since I don't believe that any insult is ever just.
I don't know whether there is a God or not, I don't know whether what the Bible or the Quran or any other holy scriptures say is true. All I know is that it is best to be true to oneself. And if there is an Allah, I bet he likes me better this way -- better than he would if I would pretend to believe in him. For now, if I would try to believe in God, it would be pretension. I think it is better to be an honest agnostic than a pretending believer.


In short, Proud Muslim, you are not making Islam attractive to me if you talk about my "one sided hypocrisy" and if you spit gall at some other posters here.
You are not kindly inviting me to study the Quran myself if you call people hypocrites.

And try to keep in mind that not all of us had the same advantages in life like you -- and that things that may be obvious to you, aren't necessarily obvious to us. If you want to convince us that you are right, you have to approach us in a manner that WE find acceptable. For now, you are spitting on your own plate.

 

[water]

The topic of this thread is about Muslims in Europe. Earlier in this thread, statistical and other arguments were presented, the topic of religious consistency has also been brought up. I would like to say some more about it.

European countries are by no means obliged to accept Muslims, or any foreigners for that matter.
The reasons for not wanting foreigners here don't necessarily have something to do with xenophobia: Europe is overpopulated and unemployment is a severe problem. That alone suffices for not wanting any additional foreign people to come here.

Everyone is striving for their own interests, and so do the Muslim minorities in Europe. That is understandable.

Why should Europe accept Muslims? Europeans are the native majority here, and Muslims are the ones trying to get in and get more saying. Why should Europe accept them?
Because they are better people than Europeans? Because their religion is the only right one? Because Muslims feel they have the right to come here?

If they say that their belief gives them the right to come here and take high positions in the states, it is still up to the Europeans to decide whether to let them in peacefully or not. Muslims are the ones who have to prove that they are better and that their religion is the only right one -- if these are their arguments for coming here.
And so far, there are grave oppositions to be seen between their high beliefs and their everyday practice.
And if they physically attack us -- is it wrong of us if we defend our ground?? Hell no!!


What have the Muslims done so far to convince us that what they believe could be good for us? What examples have they set?

They quote the Quran. But Europeans don't believe in the Quran YET, so they cannot just accept what it says. If Muslims want us to think good of them and to believe in the Quran, then they should hold on to it and live by its principles -- "overcome the inner enemy" instead of shooting at us and bombing us.

There are other ways, of course, and here I like to think of the Muslim leader here in Slovenia, Dzogic. In the public appearances he has made, as many as I have seen, he has always been respectful towards others and never militant. Esp. the Right Wing parties have used some really low ways to approach him. Was Dzogic respectful? Yes. Did he spit gall on them? No. Did he pursue his interests? Yes. Did he interfere with other people's freedom? No. Did he quote the Quran as the source for his rights of a religious person? No.

His example shows that it is possible to be religious, pursue your interests and yet not interfere with other people's freedom. I don't know how he does it, but he does it! I guess this is TRUE faith.

 

[Vienna]

I like to think of the Muslim leader here in Slovenia, Dzogic. In the public appearances he has made, as many as I have seen, he has always been respectful towards others and never militant. Esp. the Right Wing parties have used some really low ways to approach him. Was Dzogic respectful? Yes. Did he spit gall on them? No. Did he pursue his interests? Yes. Did he interfere with other people's freedom? No. Did he quote the Quran as the source for his rights of a religious person? No.

OK, let me quote a fable from Aesop here, it pretty much sums up the picture.

The Wolf and the Shepherd

A WOLF followed a flock of sheep for a long time and did not attempt to injure one of them. The shepherd at first stood on his guard against him, as against an enemy, and kept a strict watch over his movements. But when the wolf, day after day, kept in the company of the sheep and did not make the slightest effort to seize them, the shepherd began to look on him as a guardian of his flock rather than as a plotter of evil against it; and when occasion called him one day into the city, he left the sheep entirely in his charge. The wolf, now that he had the opportunity, fell on the sheep, and destroyed the greater part of the flock. When the shepherd returned to find his flock destroyed, he exclaimed:
"I have been rightly served; why did I trust my sheep to a wolf?"

Give your friend the Muslim leader the freedom he wants and you'll soon live to regret it.

 

[water]

Vienna,
He's not my friend and I won't give him the freedom he wants: If there will be a referendum about the mosque, I'll vote against it. Dzogic may be admirable, but there are such fundamentalists in the Muslim lines; my condition is: Get rid of the fundamentalists, and then we can talk, but no sooner.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization

by Mark Glenn

[Article cut-and-pasted from elsewhere. It is a shame that no link was provided. Long cut-and-paste removed]

 

[Vienna]

Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization

by Mark Glenn

More Islamic propaganda and the writer is using a western name, nice try, but very transparent.

Have another go Proud Muslim.